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7 Series Styling Update



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 27th 05, 11:30 PM
Kyle and Lori Greene
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Default 7 Series Styling Update

Here's what Autoweek has on the & Series update....

http://autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101688

Kyle.


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  #2  
Old January 27th 05, 11:48 PM
Bradburn Fentress
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"Kyle and Lori Greene" > wrote in message
...
> Here's what Autoweek has on the & Series update....
>
> http://autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101688
>
> Kyle.


That's an interesting article...not because the car has been "freshened",
but because of the sales data BMW reports. Around here the consensus has
been that the E65 has been a poor seller.....guess not. I guess it's the
best selling 7 ever.



  #3  
Old January 28th 05, 12:01 AM
bfd
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"Bradburn Fentress" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Kyle and Lori Greene" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Here's what Autoweek has on the & Series update....
>>
>> http://autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101688
>>
>> Kyle.

>
> That's an interesting article...not because the car has been "freshened",
> but because of the sales data BMW reports. Around here the consensus has
> been that the E65 has been a poor seller.....guess not. I guess it's the
> best selling 7 ever.
>

Well, the problem with the article is that "world-wide" the E65/66 has been
selling like hot cakes. However, in the US, supposedly BMW's largest market,
at least for 2004, sales for all of 2004 totaled 16,155 units which was a
21.1% decrease from the 20,473 sold during the entire year 2003!

Notice that the article selectively stated that in the US, the 7 series was
BMW best selling car during its first 3 years - 2001-2003. for more on 2004
sales, see Fred Meloan's excellent spreadsheet:

http://myfilelocker.comcast.net/fdme...ries_Sales.pdf


  #4  
Old January 28th 05, 12:48 AM
Bradburn Fentress
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Default


"bfd" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bradburn Fentress" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Kyle and Lori Greene" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Here's what Autoweek has on the & Series update....
>>>
>>> http://autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101688
>>>
>>> Kyle.

>>
>> That's an interesting article...not because the car has been "freshened",
>> but because of the sales data BMW reports. Around here the consensus has
>> been that the E65 has been a poor seller.....guess not. I guess it's the
>> best selling 7 ever.
>>

> Well, the problem with the article is that "world-wide" the E65/66 has
> been selling like hot cakes.


That's not a "problem"...it is a more accurate reflection of how the car is
doing. I'd say, in business terms, they hit a homerun with the car.

> However, in the US, supposedly BMW's largest market, at least for 2004,
> sales for all of 2004 totaled 16,155 units which was a 21.1% decrease from
> the 20,473 sold during the entire year 2003!


And that is why the "refreshening" is so accurately timed. By the way,
there is a whole world out there, and thinking the US market is all that
drives car manufacturers anymore is somewhat naive or maybe even jingoistic.
But the numbers don't lie....the car has been a great seller for BMW....no
matter who's been buying it.

> Notice that the article selectively stated that in the US, the 7 series
> was BMW best selling car during its first 3 years - 2001-2003. for more on
> 2004 sales, see Fred Meloan's excellent spreadsheet:
>
> http://myfilelocker.comcast.net/fdme...ries_Sales.pdf


Spreadsheets on BMW sales are a dime a dozen. Meloan's aren't anything
special. I happen to like the ones found at germancarfans more. And beside
that, the sheet you cite is a US sales sheet, not even a NA sales sheet, let
alone worldwide.

So, while you accuse BMW of "selectively" stating the sales results, it
seems to me they were more than fair in reporting totals sales of the car.
It is you who are selectively stating numbers that do not accurately reflect
how the car has performed for the parent company.

In the same way that you are being somewhat deceptive on the E65, other
people claim the E60 doesn't sell as well as the E39. But during it's first
full year (2004) the E60 has already outsolde the E39's best year ever. Both
in the US and in NA and in the world. And if you go to 2003 figures (in any
of the 3 markets mentioned) don't forget to subtract the E60 sales from the
E39 sales before stating that was the best year for E39. It wasn't....it was
the best year for 5 series, but included both E39 and E60. 2004 was the best
year ever for the 5 series in the US, NA and the world. And apart from 1,000
or so E39 M5's and Tourings those sales were all E60.



  #5  
Old January 28th 05, 08:23 AM
Michael Low
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Posts: n/a
Default

Bradburn Fentress wrote:
> "bfd" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Bradburn Fentress" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> "Kyle and Lori Greene" > wrote in

message
> >> ...
> >>> Here's what Autoweek has on the & Series update....
> >>>
> >>> http://autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101688
> >>>
> >>> Kyle.
> >>
> >> That's an interesting article...not because the car has been

"freshened",
> >> but because of the sales data BMW reports. Around here the

consensus has
> >> been that the E65 has been a poor seller.....guess not. I guess

it's the
> >> best selling 7 ever.
> >>

> > Well, the problem with the article is that "world-wide" the E65/66

has
> > been selling like hot cakes.

>
> That's not a "problem"...it is a more accurate reflection of how the

car is
> doing. I'd say, in business terms, they hit a homerun with the car.
>
> > However, in the US, supposedly BMW's largest market, at least for

2004,
> > sales for all of 2004 totaled 16,155 units which was a 21.1%

decrease from
> > the 20,473 sold during the entire year 2003!

>
> And that is why the "refreshening" is so accurately timed. By the

way,
> there is a whole world out there, and thinking the US market is all

that
> drives car manufacturers anymore is somewhat naive or maybe even

jingoistic.
> But the numbers don't lie....the car has been a great seller for

BMW....no
> matter who's been buying it.
>



Actually Canadians also seem to have a problem with the E65. There are
very very few of them on the streets and roads here.

One good reason to take seriously the notion that the E65 is not a BMW
success is what Helmut Panke has admitted to recently about mistakes by
BMW with the E65. Another reason is the way BMW has been responding to
worries about the E60 and the E90 meeting the same negative reception
of the E65.

While I agree the "refresh" is timed to help sales I think you may also
want to consider how BMW went about doing the resfresh.

If the bold design direction were so successful then one would think
BMW should be more apt to build on the same ideas. However, the
opposite appears to be true because the resfresh seems more of a design
retreat. So if BMW is actually reversing the original design effects
then the logical inference is that advancing the original design
further at this point would not be desirable. Finally, if your
criterion for proving the success of a design is sales, then it should
follow that BMW feels the original design did not meet its sales goals.
Actually, sales is a misleading measure of success, product cycle
profitability is much more honest. I used to work for multinationals,
you bet sales managers padded their sales figures every quarter and
every year, especially when people are gullible enough to use sales
figures as yardsticks.

I would agree that numbers can be presented in deceiving ways - prone
to whatever spin people want to put on. However, the way people
actually respond beyond just numbers usually speak in volumes. So I
think the critical comments from BMW owners did count after all. I
also think there is some value to people power when it is personal,
broad-based, persistent and honest.

  #6  
Old January 28th 05, 08:49 AM
Frank Kemper
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Default

"Michael Low" > haute in die Tasten:

> One good reason to take seriously the notion that the E65 is not a BMW
> success is what Helmut Panke has admitted to recently about mistakes by
> BMW with the E65.


I think the people who see the E65 critical have three main issues: The
exterior design, the interior design with I-Drive and the reliability.
While the first two points are widely a matter of personal taste (and for
sure being tested in advance in customer clinics), the lack of reliability
absolutely is a shame. If one buys a 80.000 $ car, he expects it at least
to work flawlessly (Okay, do not know about the expectations of Jaguar
drivers;-)). The first E65 have been rolling construction sites - which is
a shame for the top of the line model of a manufacturer. The interior
design with I-Drive has its shortcomings, but it simply is different to
everything you could buy before. People who want an S-Class, can buy one or
the big Lexus which looks the same. The exterior design is a bold and rude
statement. Much to my own surprise, I am beginning to like it. Living in
Munich and therefore often spotting new BMWs earlier than others do, I
remember very well, that I described my first encounter with the new E65 in
this newsgroup: "This car is so ugly, it is so big etc...". Today I have
get used to the look, and I start to look at cars like the S-Class or the
Lexus as simply looking rather outdated.

Frank

--
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Citroen - Made in Trance
  #7  
Old January 28th 05, 12:59 PM
Dori A Schmetterling
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Default

Looks like a cut-and-paste from the BMW propaganda dept.

Sales in Germany would be interesting to see. In 2003 S-Class outsold 7 by
quite a wide margin (strictly: numbers of cars registered).

The website I use as ref (courtesy Frank or another contributor from
Germany, I think) has not shown the calendar 2004 data yet.
http://www.kfz-auskunft.de/kfz/zulassungen.html

The monthly figures are confined to the Top 50, and the big cars are below
that.

DAS
--
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

"Kyle and Lori Greene" > wrote in message
...
> Here's what Autoweek has on the & Series update....
>
> http://autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101688
>
> Kyle.
>
>



  #8  
Old January 28th 05, 03:34 PM
Frank Kemper
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Default

"Dori A Schmetterling" > haute in die Tasten:

> The monthly figures are confined to the Top 50, and the big cars
> are below that.
>


If somebody wants to take the figures of tis statistics as a support of
his personal opinion, one has to be careful. The sales figures of these
cars in Germany often are less than 1.000 units per months. Given that,
it can make a huge difference, if Europcar Rental car company gets its
fleet of 200 new [insert brand name here] this month or next month.

IMHO the current E65 does not sell worse than every 7' series before
it. Currently both E65 and S-class lose quite a bit market share,
because their successors alreday are announced. The Audi A8 is quite
new, so it still sells very good. Other luxury cars like Lexus or
Jaguar are irrelevant to the german market.

--
please replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact

Citroen - Made in Trance
  #9  
Old January 28th 05, 06:55 PM
Bradburn Fentress
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Default


"Michael Low" > wrote in message
ps.com...

> Actually Canadians also seem to have a problem with the E65. There are
> very very few of them on the streets and roads here.


There are very very few of them on the streets anywhere. This model has
always been a very low volume seller....but you cannot argue with the fact
that the current version has sold better than any previous version of the 7
series car. You just can't, and because of that it is equaly difficult to
say the car hasn't been a success.

> One good reason to take seriously the notion that the E65 is not a BMW
> success is what Helmut Panke has admitted to recently about mistakes by
> BMW with the E65.


I don't think so at all. I think BMW has taken a difficult direction with
their cars and will cure some of the ills over time. Just because they admit
to errors or mistakes isn't evidence that they feel the car hasn't been a
comercial success. The numbers alone say it has.

> Another reason is the way BMW has been responding to
> worries about the E60 and the E90 meeting the same negative reception
> of the E65.


The E60, in 2004, was the best selling 5 series car ever in both NA and the
world. I don't think they are too worried about how it has or will be
accepted by the public.

And I think their decision to not take the E90 too far, was both well
thought out and pertinent. You think it means they are scared of the
reaction they got from the E60 and E65...while I think they are lending a
balance to their designs while the whole company goes thru a change in
design direction. The 3 series has always been the most mundane of their
models (in terms of exterior design) and they have actually changed it
significantly by comparison. To have taken that car to 5 or 7 series design
levels would have been to great of a change in one model year.

> While I agree the "refresh" is timed to help sales I think you may also
> want to consider how BMW went about doing the resfresh.
>
> If the bold design direction were so successful then one would think
> BMW should be more apt to build on the same ideas. However, the
> opposite appears to be true because the resfresh seems more of a design
> retreat.


I don't see that at all. All of the most sever design cues remain in the
car. What has happened, at least from the pictures I have seen, is that they
have melded these cues together is a more flaterring manner. They have
simply improved in understanding the styling direction they embarked upon 4
years ago.

> So if BMW is actually reversing the original design effects
> then the logical inference is that advancing the original design
> further at this point would not be desirable. Finally, if your
> criterion for proving the success of a design is sales, then it should
> follow that BMW feels the original design did not meet its sales goals.


Really? I can't tell if you're serious or just making an argument because
you don't like the car. The object is to sell more cars, and to sell more
7's at the end of a leasing cycle means making a car a little better and a
little different than the one the customer just returned.

It's almost as if you think trying to do better means everything you did
previously was a failure. That doesn't follow, not in business or in life.


> Actually, sales is a misleading measure of success, product cycle
> profitability is much more honest. I used to work for multinationals,
> you bet sales managers padded their sales figures every quarter and
> every year, especially when people are gullible enough to use sales
> figures as yardsticks.


So suddenly BMW is a failure because they sell more cars?

Suddenly BMW is less profitable because more people have bought the E65 than
the previous 7?

After 35 years of being profitable each and ever year, and after 10 years
of, along with Porsche, of being head and shoulders above every other car
maker in terms of margin, BMW suddenly loses their ability to make money
from cars....just because they sold more 7's than ever before and you don't
like the design?

Look, BMW has managed profitability so magnifacently over the years that
they are one of 2 companies to have been profitable every year over the past
35 years. They have managed business so well that they and Porsche are head
and shoulders above the rest of the industry in unit margins.

I don't believe for a minute that simply because they have changed design
direction they have somehow for some reason lost their amazing ability to
make every model profitable in a way few other makers can. Even in light of
the debilitating currancy valuations BMW remains a profit center.










  #10  
Old January 28th 05, 07:56 PM
Michael Low
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Frank, I think your observation that some people do and/or will find
the new designs more "likeable" over time is valid. I think for them
what may remain debatable is whether their reasons for doing so are
authentic from the aspect of their understanding why. Aesthetics are
quite a subjective matter as you properly pointed out - why people
change their minds may depend on how well they know themselves.

 




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