Replacing front tires

Around 9/6/2006 7:15 AM, Mike Romain wrote:

> Bill Funk wrote:
>> On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 13:26:53 -0700, "Floyd Rogers"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> "Bill Funk" > wrote
>>>> (Brent P) wrote:
>>>>> If you had better tires on the front than the rear, the rear would float
>>>>> and swing around.
>>>> A completely unsupported assumption.
>>> Actually, COMPLETELY supported:
>>> http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=52
>>>
>>> FloydR
>>>
>> On a continuous curve pad.
>> Not many street situations are such; most driving is straight, where
>> the fronts will wipe the rear tire track.
>>
>> --
>> Bill Funk
>> replace "g" with "a"
>
> You have obviously never driven a front wheel drive car in snow or ice.
>
> Roads do curve and bald/low tread rear tires 'will' float out faster
> than you can blink.


That's just what I was going to write. Unless you're moving in a
perfectly straight line or have four wheel steering, the rear tires are
going to take a different track from the front tires whenever you move
the steering wheel, even for something as slight as changing lanes.

The most obvious example of the problems with this lack of rear traction
can be seen in the snow or on ice, where you can find yourself facing
the direction you were coming from in a fraction of a second (Google
"snap oversteer").

The few times we've had any accumulation of snow, I've done this for fun
in snowy parking lots in a FWD with snow tires on the front and worn
no-seasons on the rear. Without traction in the rear it'll stick the
front end and pivot around it, spinning the car like a top.

It's not just snow, though. I've also seen it happen on the freeway in
Seattle's typical light rain conditions: A lady was just driving her FWD
econobox along in the center lane ahead and to the left of me. She makes
to change lanes to the left lane, and almost faster than you could see
she's suddenly sliding down the road backwards at ~65 MPH. You should
have seen the look on her face! Thankfully, she either didn't panic and
did the right thing or just completely froze with fear, because she
didn't try to steer at all and (as I watched in the mirror) just slid to
a stop mostly in the left shoulder, having not hit anything including
the guardrail or any other cars.


Long story short, in a FWD car, you don't want to skimp on the rear tires.

--
~/Garth |"I believe that it is better to tell the truth than a lie.
Almgren | I believe it is better to be free than to be a slave.
******* | And I believe it is better to know than to be ignorant."
for secure mail info) --H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)

On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 21:00:06 -0500,
(Brent P) wrote:

>In article >, Bill Funk wrote:
>
>>> When the fronts float, there's NO steering; not just understeer.
>>>When you put worn tires
>>>on the rear, you get oversteer, in ALL conditions, even dry.
>
>> Hardly.
>> Most people never get anywhere near the limits of even worn tires.
>
>Drive a mustang in the snow sometime. Let me know if you find the limits
>of worn tires.

I grew up in PA; I know how to drive in snow.
--
Bill Funk
replace "g" with "a"

In article >, Bill Funk wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 21:00:06 -0500,
> (Brent P) wrote:
>
>>In article >, Bill Funk wrote:

>>> Hardly.
>>> Most people never get anywhere near the limits of even worn tires.

>>Drive a mustang in the snow sometime. Let me know if you find the limits
>>of worn tires.
>
> I grew up in PA; I know how to drive in snow.

So then you knew that your statement about people not finding the limits
of even worn tires is false.

On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 15:03:01 -0500,
(Brent P) wrote:

>In article >, Bill Funk wrote:
>> On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 21:00:06 -0500,
>> (Brent P) wrote:
>>
>>>In article >, Bill Funk wrote:
>
>>>> Hardly.
>>>> Most people never get anywhere near the limits of even worn tires.
>
>>>Drive a mustang in the snow sometime. Let me know if you find the limits
>>>of worn tires.
>>
>> I grew up in PA; I know how to drive in snow.
>
>So then you knew that your statement about people not finding the limits
>of even worn tires is false.
>

Not at all.
I know that people who know how to drive (and more importantly, their
limits in circumstances they are unfamiliar with) don't seem to have
the problems you evidently have.
--
Bill Funk
replace "g" with "a"

In article >, Bill Funk wrote:
> On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 15:03:01 -0500,
> (Brent P) wrote:
>
>>In article >, Bill Funk wrote:
>>> On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 21:00:06 -0500,
>>> (Brent P) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article >, Bill Funk wrote:
>>
>>>>> Hardly.
>>>>> Most people never get anywhere near the limits of even worn tires.
>>
>>>>Drive a mustang in the snow sometime. Let me know if you find the limits
>>>>of worn tires.
>>>
>>> I grew up in PA; I know how to drive in snow.
>>
>>So then you knew that your statement about people not finding the limits
>>of even worn tires is false.
>>
>
> Not at all.
> I know that people who know how to drive (and more importantly, their
> limits in circumstances they are unfamiliar with) don't seem to have
> the problems you evidently have.

Since when is the people you know who know how to drive, most drivers?
Of course these experts (provided they are such) of yours won't be driving
cars with mismatched tires in the first place, they won't be driving in
the snow with 2/32nds tread depth either. And they certainly wouldn't
be driving around with worn tires on the rear and new ones on the front.

If you think most people won't reach the limits of car with worn tires,
think again. Most people don't know where their or their car's limits
are. And they could very easily, and often do find them when tires are
worn down and road conditions diminish.

There is no way in hell, you are going to take a V8 mustang into the
snow with 2/32nds of tread on the tires and not find the limits. You'll
find the limits real quick, long before you reach a residential speed
limit. Probably before the end of the driveway. If you think 'most
people' drive under 5mph all the time, they'll find the limits of worn
tires.

Go ahead put some worn out tires on the rear of a car and new ones on
the front and have at it. Just don't hurt anyone else or their property
in the process.

And personally, I don't have problems, but I am not the one advocating
tires of mismatched wear with the much more worn ones on the rear.

Bill Funk wrote:
> On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 15:03:01 -0500,
> (Brent P) wrote:
>
>
>>In article >, Bill Funk wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 21:00:06 -0500,
>>>(Brent P) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>In article >, Bill Funk wrote:
>>
>>>>>Hardly.
>>>>>Most people never get anywhere near the limits of even worn tires.
>>
>>>>Drive a mustang in the snow sometime. Let me know if you find the limits
>>>>of worn tires.
>>>
>>>I grew up in PA; I know how to drive in snow.
>>
>>So then you knew that your statement about people not finding the limits
>>of even worn tires is false.
>>
>
>
> Not at all.
> I know that people who know how to drive (and more importantly, their
> limits in circumstances they are unfamiliar with) don't seem to have
> the problems you evidently have.

People that know how to drive don't make asinine statements like "Most
people never get anywhere near the limits of even worn tires." There
are days, even here in DC-land, where backing out of the driveway uses
most of the available traction. Those days, you either have to a) know
how to drive, and make sure your car is set up properly - this means
good tires, correctly placed - or b) don't go anywhere.

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

This was somewhat academical for me, when I asked Nate this question,
since I always take care of my tires, brakes, and steering before
taking care of my engine.:wink: And I do not have any problem with car
spinning, I just have enough skills and experience to deal with that (
I've been driving for 35 years, and mostly in Russia ). The main point
for me was that I need the steering - any kind of steering be it under
or over - to exist to be able to control the car. And nobody in this
topic was able to convince me that I'm wrong so far.:banghead:
Including the link to the TireRack article - I can write another one
proving the opposite point with the same credibility. It does not have
any serious research underneath. But that link that gpsman posted...

gpsman Wrote:
> gpsman wrote:
>
> But there's more and better (duh), if not great, evidence that I might
> be wrong.
>
> http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/pw/laurens.htm (Them's got
> pichurs, altho they fail to mention in which position the tire is
> mounted when photographed).
>
> And http://www.michelinman.com/care/tip6.html with a video I haven't
> watched yet,
> -----
>
> - gpsman

...do yourself a favor, watch the video. I do not like Michelin tires,
but I bet this video is based on the very serious research. And they do
not have any selling interest in the issue. I'm converted now - if I
have to replace only two tires, new ones go to the back. Period.


--
MishaA
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In article >,
Bill Funk > wrote:
>On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 19:23:03 -0400, Nate Nagel >
>wrote:
>
>>So in exactly what way does that NOT translate to on-road safety?
>>Again, for most drivers, understeer is safer.
>
>When the fronts float, there's NO steering; not just understeer.

It's the limiting case of understeer. Understeer is when the front
tires are slipping more than the rear tires.

>>When you put worn tires
>>on the rear, you get oversteer, in ALL conditions, even dry.
>
>Hardly.
>Most people never get anywhere near the limits of even worn tires.

Not in the dry. But in the rain they do. Mostly when stopping, but
on curves too. Add a little ice or snow to the mix and lots of people
exceed the limits of their tires.

It's pretty hard to make your typical front-wheel drive car exhibit static
oversteer because the weight balance is so heavily forward. But bad
enough tires on the rear will do it.
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.