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#21
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Replacing front tires
On Sun, 3 Sep 2006 13:01:32 -0700, "Floyd Rogers"
> wrote: >"Bill Funk" > wrote >> On Sun, 3 Sep 2006 11:38:49 -0700, "Floyd Rogers" wrote: >>>> On a FWD car, the rears simply follow the front. They don't even >>>> provide power, as they do on a RWD car. >>>> There's no need to replace good tires on the rear. >>> >>>I think this should be clarified. When buying two tires (usually >>>to replace the fronts which wear faster than the rears on a FWD >>>car), the NEW tires should be placed on the REAR. The reason >>>is that leaving the worn (but still legal) tires on the rear exposes >>>the car to possibly severe oversteer conditions in wet when the >>>rears hydroplane and the fronts (with new rubber) do not. >>> >> IMO: >> Sounds good in theory, but in practice, my experience (very limited!) >> is different. >> In an F-250 (>6000lbs) with equal tires front & rear, the only >> hydroplaning experience I've had occured; the front tiers were >> hydroplaning. When I turned the sterering wheel, nothing happened. I >> let up on the throttle, and a few seconds later, the truck turned. >> It wasn't the rear tires (the less loaded tires) that floated, but the >> fronts (with equal water on the road all around). When I let off the >> throttle, the rear tires slowed the truck. >> Just my (limited) experience. > >That's a very different situation: 1) RWD vs. FWD, 2) equal tread >depth (vs. less depth in rear), 3) understeer vs. oversteer (induced >by hydroplaning.). > >Placing the best tires on the rear virtually guarantees that the fronts >will hydroplane 1st, which results in an understeer (and easily controlled) >condition. Not so easily controlled when you want to steer, and get no steering because the front tires are just floating along. > >Oversteer is rarely encountered because most drivers are used to >understeer (all FWD cars understeer, indeed most RWD cars are >tuned to provide understeer as a first response). Oversteer is >definitely to be avoided by the majority of drivers, since almost >none of them have experienced or trained for it. > >FloydR > -- Bill Funk replace "g" with "a" |
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#22
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Replacing front tires
Floyd Rogers wrote:
> "Bill Funk" > wrote > > On 2 Sep 2006 18:06:41 -0700, "SP Cook" > wrote: > >>Wally wrote: > >>> I have an '89 Olds car with 4 Goodyear Aquatred tires on it. > >>> I need to replace the front pair of tires as the car will not pass > >>> state inspection because of tread depth. I want to just replace the > >>> front tires as the rear tires are still in good shape, tread-wise. > >> > >>It is dangerous and foolish to replace only two tires on any front > >>wheel drive car. > >> > >>Spend the money and buy four good standard tires. > > > > On a FWD car, the rears simply follow the front. They don't even > > provide power, as they do on a RWD car. > > There's no need to replace good tires on the rear. > > I think this should be clarified. When buying two tires (usually > to replace the fronts which wear faster than the rears on a FWD > car), the NEW tires should be placed on the REAR. The reason > is that leaving the worn (but still legal) tires on the rear exposes > the car to possibly severe oversteer conditions in wet when the > rears hydroplane and the fronts (with new rubber) do not. I've experienced a bit of hydroplaning in my time and *never* have the rear tires lost traction before the front... and that event seems very unlikely to occur at "normal" velocities and in "normal" water depths when the front tires are pushing the water out of the path of the rears. IMO to reduce the chances of hydroplaning the tires with the most resistance to hydroplaning, those with the deepest tread depth, should be mounted on the front in either F or RWD instances. Even in an loss of traction from only the rear tires I think it's most likely best to have as much steering control as possible. But if only the rear tires are hydroplaning (?) the fronts are not likely far behind and adding steering correction at that moment seems inadvisable to me. Google 'friction circle, tire' or see http://www.auto-ware.com/setup/fc1.htm ----- - gpsman |
#23
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Replacing front tires
gpsman wrote: > Floyd Rogers wrote: > > "Bill Funk" > wrote > > > On 2 Sep 2006 18:06:41 -0700, "SP Cook" > wrote: > > >>Wally wrote: > > >>> I have an '89 Olds car with 4 Goodyear Aquatred tires on it. > > >>> I need to replace the front pair of tires as the car will not pass > > >>> state inspection because of tread depth. I want to just replace the > > >>> front tires as the rear tires are still in good shape, tread-wise. > > >> > > >>It is dangerous and foolish to replace only two tires on any front > > >>wheel drive car. > > >> > > >>Spend the money and buy four good standard tires. > > > > > > On a FWD car, the rears simply follow the front. They don't even > > > provide power, as they do on a RWD car. > > > There's no need to replace good tires on the rear. > > > > I think this should be clarified. When buying two tires (usually > > to replace the fronts which wear faster than the rears on a FWD > > car), the NEW tires should be placed on the REAR. The reason > > is that leaving the worn (but still legal) tires on the rear exposes > > the car to possibly severe oversteer conditions in wet when the > > rears hydroplane and the fronts (with new rubber) do not. > > I've experienced a bit of hydroplaning in my time and *never* have the > rear tires lost traction before the front... and that event seems very > unlikely to occur at "normal" velocities and in "normal" water depths > when the front tires are pushing the water out of the path of the > rears. > > IMO to reduce the chances of hydroplaning the tires with the most > resistance to hydroplaning, those with the deepest tread depth, should > be mounted on the front in either F or RWD instances. > > Even in an loss of traction from only the rear tires I think it's most > likely best to have as much steering control as possible. But if only > the rear tires are hydroplaning (?) the fronts are not likely far > behind and adding steering correction at that moment seems inadvisable > to me. Google 'friction circle, tire' or see > http://www.auto-ware.com/setup/fc1.htm Yes, hydroplaning rear tires is very rare, simply because the fronts tend to clear a path for the rears - the water doesn't have time to cover the road surface before the rear tires get there, unless it's *really* deep. However, locking the rears first under hard braking is seriously bad juju, you do NOT want that to happen, trust me. Also the rears braking loose under hard cornering can be scary - on the street, cornering hard enough to break traction generally tends to happen in an emergency-avoidance type maneuver, not steady-state cornering, so "plowing" (fronts break loose first) is generally easier to deal with by a surprised or unskilled driver than oversteer (i.e. a big ol' spin.) nate |
#24
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Replacing front tires
Floyd Rogers wrote:
> [On a FWD car] > Placing the best tires on the rear virtually guarantees that the fronts > will hydroplane 1st, which results in an understeer (and easily controlled) > condition. > > Oversteer is rarely encountered because most drivers are used to > understeer (all FWD cars understeer, indeed most RWD cars are > tuned to provide understeer as a first response). Oversteer is > definitely to be avoided by the majority of drivers, since almost > none of them have experienced or trained for it. You really think understeer is better than oversteer ? When the front wheels lose traction, you cannot control the direction of the car any more. If you're on a corner -- YGHN (you go to hospital/heaven now). Having said that, I have a RWD car. The only time I have hydroplaned, was while driving a FWD hatchback in a passing zone on a rural road, in heavy rain. There was traffic to one side, and oncoming traffic about 2 metres away at a speed differential of about 200km/h. I felt the fronts lose traction (thankfully, it was on a straight), and had no idea what to do. I just held the wheel straight and continued to apply light throttle as I had been before the hydroplaning started. Thankfully again, traction came back a couple of seconds later. What's the best thing to do in this situation? |
#25
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Replacing front tires
Old Wolf wrote:
> Floyd Rogers wrote: > >>[On a FWD car] >>Placing the best tires on the rear virtually guarantees that the fronts >>will hydroplane 1st, which results in an understeer (and easily controlled) >>condition. >> >>Oversteer is rarely encountered because most drivers are used to >>understeer (all FWD cars understeer, indeed most RWD cars are >>tuned to provide understeer as a first response). Oversteer is >>definitely to be avoided by the majority of drivers, since almost >>none of them have experienced or trained for it. > > > You really think understeer is better than oversteer ? For most people, yes. Most OEM's agree with that assessment, as most cars "out of the box" will be set up to "plow" a little. The reason is that the recovery procedure for understeer - getting off the gas - is reflexive even for an untrained driver. The recovery procedure for oversteer is not. > > When the front wheels lose traction, you cannot control the > direction of the car any more. If you're on a corner -- YGHN > (you go to hospital/heaven now). > That's true. However, the car will continue in the direction it was pointed when it lost traction, which is reasonably safe, assuming that you were pointed the direction you wanted to go. > Having said that, I have a RWD car. The only time I have > hydroplaned, was while driving a FWD hatchback in a passing > zone on a rural road, in heavy rain. There was traffic to one side, > and oncoming traffic about 2 metres away at a speed differential > of about 200km/h. > > I felt the fronts lose traction (thankfully, it was on a straight), > and had no idea what to do. I just held the wheel straight and > continued to apply light throttle as I had been before the > hydroplaning started. Thankfully again, traction came back > a couple of seconds later. What's the best thing to do in > this situation? gradually lift off the gas and let the car coast down, but nothing else. Definitely do not turn the steering wheel as you don't want to unsettle the car when traction comes back. nate -- replace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel |
#26
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Replacing front tires
"Nate Nagel" > wrote
> Old Wolf wrote: >> I felt the fronts lose traction (thankfully, it was on a straight), >> and had no idea what to do. I just held the wheel straight and >> continued to apply light throttle as I had been before the >> hydroplaning started. Thankfully again, traction came back >> a couple of seconds later. What's the best thing to do in >> this situation? > > gradually lift off the gas and let the car coast down, but nothing else. > Definitely do not turn the steering wheel as you don't want to unsettle > the car when traction comes back. Very nice response, Nate. FloydR |
#27
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Replacing front tires
"Floyd Rogers" > wrote
> "Nate Nagel" > wrote >> Old Wolf wrote: >>> I felt the fronts lose traction (thankfully, it was on a straight), >>> and had no idea what to do. I just held the wheel straight and >>> continued to apply light throttle as I had been before the >>> hydroplaning started. Thankfully again, traction came back >>> a couple of seconds later. What's the best thing to do in >>> this situation? >> >> gradually lift off the gas and let the car coast down, but nothing else. >> Definitely do not turn the steering wheel as you don't want to unsettle >> the car when traction comes back. > > Very nice response, Nate. Late thought: rather amazing to actually be posting ON-TOPIC to RAD... FloydR |
#29
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Replacing front tires
In article >, Brent P wrote:
> You do not want the ass end of the car to come around under any > circumstances. Before the sniping trolls step in with some special case where one wants the ass end of the car to come around, I clearly mean normal street driving, not some movie stunt or whatever other special case you are thinking of. |
#30
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Replacing front tires
Floyd Rogers wrote:
> > I think this should be clarified. When buying two tires (usually > to replace the fronts which wear faster than the rears on a FWD > car), the NEW tires should be placed on the REAR. The reason > is that leaving the worn (but still legal) tires on the rear exposes > the car to possibly severe oversteer conditions in wet when the > rears hydroplane and the fronts (with new rubber) do not. > > FloydR > > That's exactly why you SHOULD place the new tires on the front and leave the old ones on the rear. Finally, a FWD car that doesn't plow. Seriously, having put new tires on the front of the wife's car last winter I can confirm this is exactly what happens, and if you don't want it, it's not a good thing. (some of us find that a little less plow and a little more loose IS a good thing.) (and fwiw, the wife's car will get new tires probably this winter if we keep it another winter. Since we've had the car we seem to replace a set every two-three years.) Ray |
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