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ATF+3 ATF+4 Dexron TCM replace



 
 
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  #11  
Old November 19th 04, 07:21 PM
Daniel J. Stern
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 16 Nov 2004, Tree Line wrote:

> 1994 Plymouth Voyage "3" liter Mitsubishi, rebuilt tranny with 58,000
> miles
>
> Rebuilt at Cottman.


Whoops, you used a franchised transmission chain. These places specialize
in deciding that transmissions with minor problems need expensive total
rebuilds. These expensive total rebuilds are always charged for, but
frequently not actually done. You should have taken the car to a competent
independent transmission diagnostician first.

> The TCM is $190 remanufactured at the dealer. Any cheaper?


www.car-part.com , searchable used auto parts nationwide. Get a '95 or
newer TCM.

> Can I
> replace that


Yes.


> This can't be flashed if I read the TSB right.


That's why you should get the newer one, with the finned case, which can
be flashed.

> Anyway to tell easily is Dexron was used in case of the proper ATF+3


No. Call Cottman's and ask, but most of those places use a universal fluid
with additives claiming (but failing) to convert the universal fluid into
the right stuff.
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  #12  
Old November 20th 04, 05:33 AM
Treeline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
n.umich.edu...
> On Wed, 16 Nov 2004, Tree Line wrote:
>
> > 1994 Plymouth Voyage "3" liter Mitsubishi, rebuilt tranny

with 58,000
> > miles
> >
> > Rebuilt at Cottman.

>
> Whoops, you used a franchised transmission chain. These places

specialize
> in deciding that transmissions with minor problems need

expensive total
> rebuilds. These expensive total rebuilds are always charged

for, but
> frequently not actually done. You should have taken the car to

a competent
> independent transmission diagnostician first.
>
> > The TCM is $190 remanufactured at the dealer. Any cheaper?

>
> www.car-part.com , searchable used auto parts nationwide. Get a

'95 or
> newer TCM.
>
> > Can I
> > replace that

>
> Yes.
>
>
> > This can't be flashed if I read the TSB right.

>
> That's why you should get the newer one, with the finned case,

which can
> be flashed.
>
> > Anyway to tell easily is Dexron was used in case of the

proper ATF+3
>
> No. Call Cottman's and ask, but most of those places use a

universal fluid
> with additives claiming (but failing) to convert the universal

fluid into
> the right stuff.



I did not take the car, the previous owner did to Cottman and was
most unhappy. So you're right. $2000 for the rebuilt then another
$700 for parts, pumps, not rebuilt right, in 2000. I suspect the
TCM or EATXII or whatever they call that Transmission Computer
Module was not upgraded. It still has the rough shift around 37
mph, the notorious shudder. After a tune-up, it's better. The
distributor had a corroded wire which probably screwed up
everything electrical. The tune-up, which I did not ask for, just
get the start problem, the original distributor wire, was $341,
which I thought was expensive and was something I used to do,
tune-ups. But the tranny is working much better, the shudder is
down about 90%.

So now for the software upgrade and the fluid change. I have not
been able to get through to Cottman on the phone. But I can see
the conversatio now - back in 2000 what fluid did you put in and
did you upgrade the computer? Probably no to both. Nothing on the
original bill about anything with a computer.

Thanks for your response.

  #13  
Old November 20th 04, 05:33 AM
Treeline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
n.umich.edu...
> On Wed, 16 Nov 2004, Tree Line wrote:
>
> > 1994 Plymouth Voyage "3" liter Mitsubishi, rebuilt tranny

with 58,000
> > miles
> >
> > Rebuilt at Cottman.

>
> Whoops, you used a franchised transmission chain. These places

specialize
> in deciding that transmissions with minor problems need

expensive total
> rebuilds. These expensive total rebuilds are always charged

for, but
> frequently not actually done. You should have taken the car to

a competent
> independent transmission diagnostician first.
>
> > The TCM is $190 remanufactured at the dealer. Any cheaper?

>
> www.car-part.com , searchable used auto parts nationwide. Get a

'95 or
> newer TCM.
>
> > Can I
> > replace that

>
> Yes.
>
>
> > This can't be flashed if I read the TSB right.

>
> That's why you should get the newer one, with the finned case,

which can
> be flashed.
>
> > Anyway to tell easily is Dexron was used in case of the

proper ATF+3
>
> No. Call Cottman's and ask, but most of those places use a

universal fluid
> with additives claiming (but failing) to convert the universal

fluid into
> the right stuff.



I did not take the car, the previous owner did to Cottman and was
most unhappy. So you're right. $2000 for the rebuilt then another
$700 for parts, pumps, not rebuilt right, in 2000. I suspect the
TCM or EATXII or whatever they call that Transmission Computer
Module was not upgraded. It still has the rough shift around 37
mph, the notorious shudder. After a tune-up, it's better. The
distributor had a corroded wire which probably screwed up
everything electrical. The tune-up, which I did not ask for, just
get the start problem, the original distributor wire, was $341,
which I thought was expensive and was something I used to do,
tune-ups. But the tranny is working much better, the shudder is
down about 90%.

So now for the software upgrade and the fluid change. I have not
been able to get through to Cottman on the phone. But I can see
the conversatio now - back in 2000 what fluid did you put in and
did you upgrade the computer? Probably no to both. Nothing on the
original bill about anything with a computer.

Thanks for your response.

  #14  
Old November 20th 04, 05:49 AM
Treeline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Treeline" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
> > ...


> Well, that was somewhat of a joke - you really should call

around.
> If the wrecking yards in your area are full of them then maybe

you
> can get the trans computer for $20.
>
> > And although the fins are flashable, what about
> > cables and connectivity.

>
> They are all the same, they use the same harness. '89/90 have

to have
> a wire cut with the newer firmware.


Read about that wire #49, so thanks, not my problem.
Have found thanks to Daniel Stern, some yards that have it for
$25 to $35 and may be near me in case I do not use my original
one. Tempted to have the dealer do the flashing and resetting the
computer but found the method in allpar or somewhere else for
resetting the TCM after the upgrade. Maybe the main computer too?

>
> According to the green "Service/Diagnostic Procedures &

Refinements Manual
> for the
> 41TE/AE Transaxle" by Chrysler, on page 32, 1993-1995 original

trans
> controllers
> were finned with 4 heat sinks and are flashable. To flash they

require
> Miller CH 5500
> flash kit, as well as a DRB tool and a special cable.
>
> It was only the 1989-1992 controllers that were non-finned and
> non-flashable.
>
> Yours is probably flashable. By the way, the fins are along

one edge.

Thanks, found it, see the fins and checked the TSB's and the part
number and it's flashable.

R4686478AA 04686606 93-94 A,C,J,P,S,Y 3.0, 3.3 & 3.8
from the TSB, above is the remanufactured part and software
upgrade from the dealer. I have the "S" Voyager model which
probabl is the "AS" model in 1995 that you recommended for the
TCM.

4686131 was the original part number but I can't read it.
Probably on the metal tag and I don't want to take it off the
firewall just yet.


> http://www.allpar.com/eek/atf.html

Thanks, so a flush using the transmission pump I gather would be
just fine, instead of the power flush.

> > I have been
> > warned by the Chrysler dealer AND Cottman Transmissions not

to
> > flush this old tranny because the dirt is keeping it

together.
>
> That is baloney. Read the following:
>
> http://www.allpar.com/fix/trans.html


They probably thought I meant the reverse power flush only. They
could have mentioned the ordinary flush. It's similar to their
fluid change which uses the tranny's pump. I just want the fluid
out of there. Okay the torque converter is sealed but still.

Hmmm, thinking, if I push the OD button and disconnect the
OverDrive, might that help the torque converter by disconnecting
the lockup? Don't know, just a thought. Read one fellow who did
it with soldering and tinkering. In any case, the 37 mph shudder
is not the lockup situation which probably occur at highway
speeds.


> Keep in mind that this transmission uses a fluid filter that

uses a
> felt-like material, not
> a screen like some transmissions do. Chrysler really meant

business when
> they
> designed the filter for this. The fluid must be absolutely

clean. There
> are many small
> passages in the valve body and even small particles are going

to jam it up.

That's very helpful. Dealer said not necessary if 30,000 miles.
But this is a rebuilt and questionable and probably worth the
extra expense.


> The method I documented on the website above gets all of the

fluid.

Even the torque converter too? Sounds like a good method. I have
used that in the past so familiar with the siphoning. Just don't
have the confidence and a garage now with ramps but I am thinking
about it.


> If it was rebuilt then the seals were replaced and are of newer

material.

But it's Cottman, so my confidence is low having seen how they
charged the previous owner at least $2700 and that owner, my
friend, was still most unhappy with the performance of the van.
Rebuilt in 2000 but not leaking, still don't like some of the
feel and subtle sounds of the tranny. So have been babying the
car. There's the slight shudder at 37 mph and at 70 mph, hear a
slight whine. Does not sound quite normal. Now I have had
Chrysler trannies that whined for 130,000 miles. I drove Chrysler
trannies that ran dry, DRY!, put in fluid, and the thing was up
and running so in the past, they built stuff that was tanklike.
Everything else came apart, the body, the electrical system,
everything but loved those slant-6's and their trannies.


> Get the TCM flashed and then change the fluid.
>
> Ted


Thanks for the excellent advice and taking the time to go into
all these details, most kind of you, especially the good advice,
get the TCM done FIRST and see if it affects anything. If not,
then some have gotten a quieter, shudder-free tranny with just a
fluid change. Mine is quiet at the moment with just a touch of
shudder at 37 mph after a tune-up where the distributor wire was
shot and screwing things up electrically all over.


  #15  
Old November 20th 04, 05:49 AM
Treeline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Treeline" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
> > ...


> Well, that was somewhat of a joke - you really should call

around.
> If the wrecking yards in your area are full of them then maybe

you
> can get the trans computer for $20.
>
> > And although the fins are flashable, what about
> > cables and connectivity.

>
> They are all the same, they use the same harness. '89/90 have

to have
> a wire cut with the newer firmware.


Read about that wire #49, so thanks, not my problem.
Have found thanks to Daniel Stern, some yards that have it for
$25 to $35 and may be near me in case I do not use my original
one. Tempted to have the dealer do the flashing and resetting the
computer but found the method in allpar or somewhere else for
resetting the TCM after the upgrade. Maybe the main computer too?

>
> According to the green "Service/Diagnostic Procedures &

Refinements Manual
> for the
> 41TE/AE Transaxle" by Chrysler, on page 32, 1993-1995 original

trans
> controllers
> were finned with 4 heat sinks and are flashable. To flash they

require
> Miller CH 5500
> flash kit, as well as a DRB tool and a special cable.
>
> It was only the 1989-1992 controllers that were non-finned and
> non-flashable.
>
> Yours is probably flashable. By the way, the fins are along

one edge.

Thanks, found it, see the fins and checked the TSB's and the part
number and it's flashable.

R4686478AA 04686606 93-94 A,C,J,P,S,Y 3.0, 3.3 & 3.8
from the TSB, above is the remanufactured part and software
upgrade from the dealer. I have the "S" Voyager model which
probabl is the "AS" model in 1995 that you recommended for the
TCM.

4686131 was the original part number but I can't read it.
Probably on the metal tag and I don't want to take it off the
firewall just yet.


> http://www.allpar.com/eek/atf.html

Thanks, so a flush using the transmission pump I gather would be
just fine, instead of the power flush.

> > I have been
> > warned by the Chrysler dealer AND Cottman Transmissions not

to
> > flush this old tranny because the dirt is keeping it

together.
>
> That is baloney. Read the following:
>
> http://www.allpar.com/fix/trans.html


They probably thought I meant the reverse power flush only. They
could have mentioned the ordinary flush. It's similar to their
fluid change which uses the tranny's pump. I just want the fluid
out of there. Okay the torque converter is sealed but still.

Hmmm, thinking, if I push the OD button and disconnect the
OverDrive, might that help the torque converter by disconnecting
the lockup? Don't know, just a thought. Read one fellow who did
it with soldering and tinkering. In any case, the 37 mph shudder
is not the lockup situation which probably occur at highway
speeds.


> Keep in mind that this transmission uses a fluid filter that

uses a
> felt-like material, not
> a screen like some transmissions do. Chrysler really meant

business when
> they
> designed the filter for this. The fluid must be absolutely

clean. There
> are many small
> passages in the valve body and even small particles are going

to jam it up.

That's very helpful. Dealer said not necessary if 30,000 miles.
But this is a rebuilt and questionable and probably worth the
extra expense.


> The method I documented on the website above gets all of the

fluid.

Even the torque converter too? Sounds like a good method. I have
used that in the past so familiar with the siphoning. Just don't
have the confidence and a garage now with ramps but I am thinking
about it.


> If it was rebuilt then the seals were replaced and are of newer

material.

But it's Cottman, so my confidence is low having seen how they
charged the previous owner at least $2700 and that owner, my
friend, was still most unhappy with the performance of the van.
Rebuilt in 2000 but not leaking, still don't like some of the
feel and subtle sounds of the tranny. So have been babying the
car. There's the slight shudder at 37 mph and at 70 mph, hear a
slight whine. Does not sound quite normal. Now I have had
Chrysler trannies that whined for 130,000 miles. I drove Chrysler
trannies that ran dry, DRY!, put in fluid, and the thing was up
and running so in the past, they built stuff that was tanklike.
Everything else came apart, the body, the electrical system,
everything but loved those slant-6's and their trannies.


> Get the TCM flashed and then change the fluid.
>
> Ted


Thanks for the excellent advice and taking the time to go into
all these details, most kind of you, especially the good advice,
get the TCM done FIRST and see if it affects anything. If not,
then some have gotten a quieter, shudder-free tranny with just a
fluid change. Mine is quiet at the moment with just a touch of
shudder at 37 mph after a tune-up where the distributor wire was
shot and screwing things up electrically all over.


  #16  
Old November 20th 04, 11:33 AM
Ted Mittelstaedt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Treeline" > wrote in message
...

> Read about that wire #49, so thanks, not my problem.
> Have found thanks to Daniel Stern, some yards that have it for
> $25 to $35 and may be near me in case I do not use my original
> one. Tempted to have the dealer do the flashing and resetting the
> computer but found the method in allpar or somewhere else for
> resetting the TCM after the upgrade. Maybe the main computer too?
>


Resetting the TCM and flash-updating it are two different things.

> Thanks, found it, see the fins and checked the TSB's and the part
> number and it's flashable.
>
> R4686478AA 04686606 93-94 A,C,J,P,S,Y 3.0, 3.3 & 3.8
> from the TSB, above is the remanufactured part and software
> upgrade from the dealer. I have the "S" Voyager model which
> probabl is the "AS" model in 1995 that you recommended for the
> TCM.
>
> 4686131 was the original part number but I can't read it.
> Probably on the metal tag and I don't want to take it off the
> firewall just yet.
>


Don't. Let the dealer do that if they need to when you have them
flash-update it.

>
> > http://www.allpar.com/eek/atf.html

> Thanks, so a flush using the transmission pump I gather would be
> just fine, instead of the power flush.
>


Yes.

> They probably thought I meant the reverse power flush only. They
> could have mentioned the ordinary flush. It's similar to their
> fluid change which uses the tranny's pump. I just want the fluid
> out of there. Okay the torque converter is sealed but still.
>


No the torque converter is not sealed. Fluid is pumped into and
out of it. If it was sealed the fluid inside it would overheat.

> Hmmm, thinking, if I push the OD button and disconnect the
> OverDrive, might that help the torque converter by disconnecting
> the lockup?


No. Don't do that.

>
> That's very helpful. Dealer said not necessary if 30,000 miles.
> But this is a rebuilt and questionable and probably worth the
> extra expense.
>


You probably have Dexron+Lubeguard not ATF+3 in there.

>
> > The method I documented on the website above gets all of the

> fluid.
>
> Even the torque converter too?


Yes.

>
> But it's Cottman, so my confidence is low having seen how they
> charged the previous owner at least $2700 and that owner, my
> friend, was still most unhappy with the performance of the van.
> Rebuilt in 2000 but not leaking, still don't like some of the
> feel and subtle sounds of the tranny. So have been babying the
> car. There's the slight shudder at 37 mph and at 70 mph, hear a
> slight whine. Does not sound quite normal. Now I have had
> Chrysler trannies that whined for 130,000 miles. I drove Chrysler
> trannies that ran dry, DRY!, put in fluid, and the thing was up
> and running so in the past, they built stuff that was tanklike.
> Everything else came apart, the body, the electrical system,
> everything but loved those slant-6's and their trannies.
>


Look again at how much space they had to work with. The
FWD layout is not optimal. The trans is crammed into the
engine compartment. I'm all for newer materials and such
but there' s no substitute for meaty, beefy, thick components.
And there is no space for that in a FWD. So, they try to
get around the lack of space by making everything thinner
out of fancy materials. Sometimes it works, other times
it don't.

Ted


  #17  
Old November 20th 04, 11:33 AM
Ted Mittelstaedt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Treeline" > wrote in message
...

> Read about that wire #49, so thanks, not my problem.
> Have found thanks to Daniel Stern, some yards that have it for
> $25 to $35 and may be near me in case I do not use my original
> one. Tempted to have the dealer do the flashing and resetting the
> computer but found the method in allpar or somewhere else for
> resetting the TCM after the upgrade. Maybe the main computer too?
>


Resetting the TCM and flash-updating it are two different things.

> Thanks, found it, see the fins and checked the TSB's and the part
> number and it's flashable.
>
> R4686478AA 04686606 93-94 A,C,J,P,S,Y 3.0, 3.3 & 3.8
> from the TSB, above is the remanufactured part and software
> upgrade from the dealer. I have the "S" Voyager model which
> probabl is the "AS" model in 1995 that you recommended for the
> TCM.
>
> 4686131 was the original part number but I can't read it.
> Probably on the metal tag and I don't want to take it off the
> firewall just yet.
>


Don't. Let the dealer do that if they need to when you have them
flash-update it.

>
> > http://www.allpar.com/eek/atf.html

> Thanks, so a flush using the transmission pump I gather would be
> just fine, instead of the power flush.
>


Yes.

> They probably thought I meant the reverse power flush only. They
> could have mentioned the ordinary flush. It's similar to their
> fluid change which uses the tranny's pump. I just want the fluid
> out of there. Okay the torque converter is sealed but still.
>


No the torque converter is not sealed. Fluid is pumped into and
out of it. If it was sealed the fluid inside it would overheat.

> Hmmm, thinking, if I push the OD button and disconnect the
> OverDrive, might that help the torque converter by disconnecting
> the lockup?


No. Don't do that.

>
> That's very helpful. Dealer said not necessary if 30,000 miles.
> But this is a rebuilt and questionable and probably worth the
> extra expense.
>


You probably have Dexron+Lubeguard not ATF+3 in there.

>
> > The method I documented on the website above gets all of the

> fluid.
>
> Even the torque converter too?


Yes.

>
> But it's Cottman, so my confidence is low having seen how they
> charged the previous owner at least $2700 and that owner, my
> friend, was still most unhappy with the performance of the van.
> Rebuilt in 2000 but not leaking, still don't like some of the
> feel and subtle sounds of the tranny. So have been babying the
> car. There's the slight shudder at 37 mph and at 70 mph, hear a
> slight whine. Does not sound quite normal. Now I have had
> Chrysler trannies that whined for 130,000 miles. I drove Chrysler
> trannies that ran dry, DRY!, put in fluid, and the thing was up
> and running so in the past, they built stuff that was tanklike.
> Everything else came apart, the body, the electrical system,
> everything but loved those slant-6's and their trannies.
>


Look again at how much space they had to work with. The
FWD layout is not optimal. The trans is crammed into the
engine compartment. I'm all for newer materials and such
but there' s no substitute for meaty, beefy, thick components.
And there is no space for that in a FWD. So, they try to
get around the lack of space by making everything thinner
out of fancy materials. Sometimes it works, other times
it don't.

Ted


 




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