brake woes

Hello everyone,

I am looking for help because I have been throwing lots of money at
some brake problems and I am quickly running out of ammo. I have been
doing repairs on a 1996 Mazda 323 constantly since buying it used a few
months back. I'm in the Philippines and I am not sure if this car is
available in the USA.

The problem started with a leak at the caliper piston seals. There was
also a ring of corrosion on the pistons and we spent a while looking
for new ones. When we didn't find any at the local parts shops, the
mechanic told me it would be ok to simply sand the pistons. I paid the
mechanic to use a rebuild kit and the leak was fixed.

After repairing the seals, the brake pedal felt very soft and went down
almost to the floor. I was assured that the brakes had been bled and
the mechanic told me I needed to repair the master cylinder. Again, I
got a repair kit and had the mechanic do the labor. Still, the pedal
was soft and went all the way to the floor. Instead of bleeding the
brakes again, the mechanic adjusted something at the power brake
booster.

After his adjustment, the brakes felt very firm. They were actually too
firm. While road testing the car the brakes began to smoke and the car
started to get slower and slower. Finally, the mechanic bled the brakes
and readjusted the power booster. The problem has not recurred until
today but the car has always seemed to have less power since that day.

Today, maybe a month later, the car began to slow and the brakes began
to smell like burning again. The pedal was once again very firm. I
couldn't press down on it at all. I could apply the brakes, but the
pedal didn't move any noticeable amount. I wondered if the pedal was
stuck down and I tried to lift it a little with my foot but it didn't
come up at all. It was as if the pressure in the brake lines was
suddenly much higher than before.

This occurred after braking very hard to avoid a motorcycle rider with
a death wish. Since today was a very warm day, I figured that maybe the
problem might have something to do with heat. I pulled over to a
service station and even though there was no mechanic on duty, there
was a man with a hose. He blasted the wheels with water to cool them
down and finally I could press the brake pedal down again.

Of course, I went straight to my mechanic and asked him what was going
on. He told me that the corroded piston was sticking(but is ok now) and
I will need to go to Manila to get some new pistons. It seems entirely
possible, but I hesitate to pay for the repair.

Since I am now skeptical of this mechanic and there is a severe
language barrier between us, and since Manila is several hours away,
and since I will likely have to go back without my own transportation
if they give me the wrong replacement part(it has happened several
times to me so far), I am seeking some insight before I commit the time
and energy to this repair.

Do the symptoms I experienced seem consistent with a sticking piston?
My mechanic suggested that I use water again if the piston sticks
again. I am confused about why heat would aggravate the corrosion
problem. I didn't experience pulling to one side, and wouldn't the
pedal come back up if I pulled it with my foot if it were really the
caliper piston? I also wonder how he can be certain that the piston was
sticking if it actually is ok now and no longer sticking like he said.

Thanks for your advice,
Joseph

wrote:

> 1996 Mazda 323

World's Most Boring Car. Popular, cheap, simple. If it isn't, get rid
of it.

> mechanic told me it would be ok to simply sand the pistons.

So find a new mechanic.

There is _nothing_ on a 323 that can't be fixed by a half-trained
apprentice over lunch. Certainly not in the brakes. Nor can there be a
continent outside Antarctica where you can't get an easy supply of 323
parts.

New mechanic. Or DIY.


> Do the symptoms I experienced seem consistent with a sticking piston?

Yes. You need to fix that. Pistons (even whole calipers) are cheap,
compared to the fuel you're wasting, the brake pads you're wearing out
and the disk you're wearing and warping.

PS - There are very few "adjustments" on a brake servo (booster) and
the only one there might be doesn't need doing repeatedly.

I've always liked working on brakes. There's just nothing to fiddle
with - things are either good or bad, and if they're bad then you're
fitting a new part, rather than trying to mess with it. There is almost
no scope for "adjusting" or "machining" on brake parts -- if it's
wrong, you need a _new_ one.

Wow. You got some half-assed mechanics there....never throw water at a
hot part to begin with, it distorts the hell out of it, and you can't
rebuild a badly pitted caliper...if they were that bad, someone was
probably driving it on the beach or something. They should have
replaced the calipers initially, and any hardware, as I'm sure it is
corroded beyond belief and helping the caplipers to stick also...

The 323's also had a very sketchy mechanism for REAR brake adjustment
that caused problems on some...if it is the ramp type adjuster. The
rears' adjusters are probably seized and non-functional also. Trying to
adjust pedal firmness with a booster pushrod adjustment is complete
incompetance...I'd suggest you stay away from there.

One thing that puzzles me is rebuilt calipers are cheap and plentiful
(at least here)...nobody would ever rebuild one when you can purchase a
reman one for less than what the labor would cost to take one apart and
fix it...sanding of pistons and bore (if that's what they really did)
is insane...they have to be machined with a hone to work
well...sometimes if the corrosion is VERY light, a polishing with
crocus cloth is all that's required, but the surface has to be very
smooth and free of pitting in order to not have binding problems...

It seems they never considered other possibilites either, like a
collapsed brake hose that's holding pressure at one wheel and causing
drag and overheat...and if you are experiencing enough drag to notice a
lack of performance and lower fuel economy, you are wearing out your
engine and tranny prematurely, sure as if you were towing a trailer
everywhere you go...


--
jeffcoslacker
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wrote:
> wrote:
>
>
>>1996 Mazda 323
>
>
> World's Most Boring Car. Popular, cheap, simple. If it isn't, get rid
> of it.
>
>
>>mechanic told me it would be ok to simply sand the pistons.
>
>
> So find a new mechanic.
>
> There is _nothing_ on a 323 that can't be fixed by a half-trained
> apprentice over lunch. Certainly not in the brakes. Nor can there be a
> continent outside Antarctica where you can't get an easy supply of 323
> parts.
>
> New mechanic. Or DIY.
>
>
>
>>Do the symptoms I experienced seem consistent with a sticking piston?
>
>
> Yes. You need to fix that. Pistons (even whole calipers) are cheap,
> compared to the fuel you're wasting, the brake pads you're wearing out
> and the disk you're wearing and warping.
>
> PS - There are very few "adjustments" on a brake servo (booster) and
> the only one there might be doesn't need doing repeatedly.
>
> I've always liked working on brakes. There's just nothing to fiddle
> with - things are either good or bad, and if they're bad then you're
> fitting a new part, rather than trying to mess with it. There is almost
> no scope for "adjusting" or "machining" on brake parts -- if it's
> wrong, you need a _new_ one.
>

welll... there are DRUM brakes, which are much more finicky to wear,
proper adjustment, etc. There's tons of things that can "wear" that can
be compensated for - worn backing plates can be welded up and ground
back down, worn drums (so long as they are not worn beyond their wear
limit) can be compensated for by arc-grinding the shoes, etc.

But in the context of disc brakes, I agree with you. I'd check the
return port in the master cylinder and make sure it's not clogged;
failing that, I second the recommendation to recheck the calipers.
Another thing to look at would be the hoses; 10 years is a little soon
for hose failure, but a hose that is swollen and/or otherwise
compromised inside can also cause these symptoms. A set of new hoses
would be cheap considering that replacing them would eliminate them as a
possible source of the problem. I'm not usually an advocate of throwing
parts at a problem, but the labor involved in removing the hoses to
inspect them is enough that you might as well replace them and be done
with it.

good luck,

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Nate Nagel Wrote:
> wrote:
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>1996 Mazda 323
> >
> >
> > World's Most Boring Car. Popular, cheap, simple. If it isn't, get rid
> > of it.
> >
> >
> >>mechanic told me it would be ok to simply sand the pistons.
> >
> >
> > So find a new mechanic.
> >
> > There is _nothing_ on a 323 that can't be fixed by a half-trained
> > apprentice over lunch. Certainly not in the brakes. Nor can there be
> a
> > continent outside Antarctica where you can't get an easy supply of
> 323
> > parts.
> >
> > New mechanic. Or DIY.
> >
> >
> >
> >>Do the symptoms I experienced seem consistent with a sticking piston?
> >
> >
> > Yes. You need to fix that. Pistons (even whole calipers) are cheap,
> > compared to the fuel you're wasting, the brake pads you're wearing
> out
> > and the disk you're wearing and warping.
> >
> > PS - There are very few "adjustments" on a brake servo (booster) and
> > the only one there might be doesn't need doing repeatedly.
> >
> > I've always liked working on brakes. There's just nothing to fiddle
> > with - things are either good or bad, and if they're bad then you're
> > fitting a new part, rather than trying to mess with it. There is
> almost
> > no scope for "adjusting" or "machining" on brake parts -- if it's
> > wrong, you need a _new_ one.
> >
>
> welll... there are DRUM brakes, which are much more finicky to wear,
> proper adjustment, etc. There's tons of things that can "wear" that can
> be compensated for - worn backing plates can be welded up and ground
> back down, worn drums (so long as they are not worn beyond their wear
> limit) can be compensated for by arc-grinding the shoes, etc.
>
> But in the context of disc brakes, I agree with you. I'd check the
> return port in the master cylinder and make sure it's not clogged;
> failing that, I second the recommendation to recheck the calipers.
> Another thing to look at would be the hoses; 10 years is a little soon
> for hose failure, but a hose that is swollen and/or otherwise
> compromised inside can also cause these symptoms. A set of new hoses
> would be cheap considering that replacing them would eliminate them as
> a
> possible source of the problem. I'm not usually an advocate of throwing
> parts at a problem, but the labor involved in removing the hoses to
> inspect them is enough that you might as well replace them and be done
> with it.
>
> good luck,
>
> nate
>
> --
> replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
> http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

For what it's worth, a good way to check if a drag is being caused by a
brake hose....when the problem occurs, crack the bleeder on the affected
wheel...a brake hose obstruction that's holding a brake engaged will
shoot a pretty strong shot of fluid, and you can often fee/hear the
caliper relax as soon as it is opened...other hardware issues don't
react to it...


--
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Thank you for your advice.

I tried this when the brakes locked up again and it caused them to
release. Then the brakes would be ok until I left the car parked for a
long period of time. After being parked, the brakes would lock up again
after being driven for a while.

Thanks also to Nate Nigel and ding for responding with very good
advice. You helped confirm a lot of my suspicions especially about my
mechanic.

I did as suggested and got a new mechanic. The new one ended up
changing the caliper pistons but felt that the hoses are fine. He
explained why bleeding caused the pistons to unstick but it was in
tagalog so I didn't understand very much and can't share that
explanation.

Thanks again, I really appreciate it.

>
> For what it's worth, a good way to check if a drag is being caused by a
> brake hose....when the problem occurs, crack the bleeder on the affected
> wheel...a brake hose obstruction that's holding a brake engaged will
> shoot a pretty strong shot of fluid, and you can often fee/hear the
> caliper relax as soon as it is opened...other hardware issues don't
> react to it...
>
>
> --
> jeffcoslacker