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  #1  
Old March 6th 05, 01:33 PM
Dori A Schmetterling
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Refreshed 7

One of the Sunday Times UK motoring journalists, Andrew Frankel, rated
himself not a fan of the updated BMW 7 despite the many improvements and his
love of the 3 and 5.

He still thinks that the Merc S-Class does luxury saloons/sedans the best.

http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/art...510977,00.html

Copy text below my intials.

DAS

BMW 7-series
By Andrew Frankel of The Sunday Times
You asked for it, Fritz



There's a rather simple but devastating ruse almost all car
manufacturers employ to encourage people like me to write nice things about
their products. After flying us in great comfort to somewhere warm and
inviting, giving us a few hours at the wheel and then wining and dining us
at some fabulous hotel, someone will always produce the Killer Question:
"So, what did you think of our car?" You have about two seconds to formulate
your response. Muttering something inaudible into your double Laphroaig will
result only in the question being repeated; while staring gimlet-eyed at
your interrogator and saying that you would rather take the bus back to the
airport is tempting but impractical. But answer you must and by far the
easiest option is to shrug and say "Oh, pretty good" in as non-committal a
way as you can.
And then they've got you. If you write anything else, you appear
at best inconsistent, at worst plain mendacious.

I wrestled with this one as I drove BMW's new 7-series across
150 miles of pristine Andalusian countryside, discovering yet again that the
company that makes the M5 - the best car I drove last year - has failed to
channel this talent into making a truly convincing luxury saloon.



BMW has worked hard on the 7-series to bring about this
comprehensive midlife update, cleaning up its once dubious looks, working on
its suspension and the infamous iDrive operating system and installing a new
range of scintillatingly powerful engines under the bonnet. And, as I said
to the first BMW man who asked the Killer Question that evening, the whole
is much improved.

This should surprise no one. Not only has BMW had four years to
raise its flagship's standards, but the bar was, in my view, not high to
begin with.

So here are my criticisms: the car's ride quality is still not
good enough, there's too much wind noise in the back, the iDrive remains a
nonsense and the driving position is too high for me. These specific faults
merely support the altogether more subjective concern that the 7-series
still does not feel like a truly luxurious car.

Sure, it comes dripping in wood and leather and there's
reasonable (if not exceptional) room in the back, but I could say as much
about a Peugeot 607. To me, the truly luxurious car of the 21st century is
one that makes every journey an occasion, one that makes you feel privileged
simply to be on board. It's a feeling I get every time I drive a Mercedes
S-class, Audi A8 or Jaguar XJ. And it's a feeling I've never yet had in a
7-series.

Even the car I tested, the £59,700 750i - which boasts a truly
wondrous 4.8 litre, 362bhp motor and will go around corners at speeds many
sports cars would find hard to follow - fails in this most important regard.
It's not sleekly beautiful like the Merc or Audi, nor, for all its sheer
grip and raw speed, does it talk to its driver on the open road like the
Jag.

The second man to ask me the Killer Question got a eulogy on how
powerful and responsive I found the new motor, and with a 0-62mph time of
5.9sec and a top speed that would crack 170mph were it not restricted, I
told no lies. What I didn't mention was that the car still felt like a
conventional saloon that has been at the steroids to bulk it up and provide
more power.

Above all, it creates the impression that BMW's innate
understanding of what makes a car stand out in any given class - and what
makes the 3-series and the 5-series the best cars in their respective
categories - has gone missing at this level. The exterior may no longer be
ugly but it's still some distance from being attractive - let alone
beautiful - while the cabin, instead of standing as the crowning achievement
of BMW's interior designers, is the least pleasing of all its model ranges.

And after two days and many hours on board, including quite a
few in the passenger seat with nothing better to do than fiddle with the
controls, I still could not get my head around the allegedly simplified
iDrive system that, via the medium of a single rotary dial, controls
everything from the heating to the navigation, the radio to the suspension
settings.

One engineer was kind enough to imply that this inability said
more about me than the car, so I referred him to Audi's MMI system, which
does the same job but does it in such an intuitive way that even a dunce
like me can figure it out in minutes.

Yet despite it all, I can still see why a certain type of
customer would find the prospect of 7-series ownership enticing. It's still
an exceptionally well-engineered car, and to someone who has come up through
the BMW ranks and expects BMW-style performance and handling, it feels like
they would expect it to: just like a very big 3-series or 5-series.

I had decided I was not a 7-series person long before someone
was unlucky enough to be the third person to ask me the Killer Question.
"Are you a fan?" he inquired politely. This time I didn't need my two
seconds of thinking time. I simply said "No" and left it at that.

Vital statistics

Model BMW 750i
Engine type V8, 4799cc
Power/torque 362bhp @ 6300rpm / 361 lb ft @ 3400rpm
Transmission Six-speed automatic
Fuel/CO2 24.8mpg (combined) / 271g/km
Performance 0-62mph: 5.9sec / Top speed: 155mph (limited)
Price £59,700
Verdict A big sports saloon, not a true luxury car
Rating 2/5

The opposition

Model Jaguar XJR, £60,970
For Excellent performance, ride, handling and build
Against Looks far too traditional and boring

Model Mercedes-Benz S500, £63,910
For Still the best luxury, looks, comfort, and strong
second-hand value
Against Showing its age, particularly on the inside



For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---



Ads
  #2  
Old March 6th 05, 02:46 PM
Steve Garey
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Oh dear - I've just ordered one for delivery in early May too.

Still, I never did believe everything I read in the press. I used to drive a
Cadillac Seville STS which I loved but the UK press & people like Clarkson
slated it.

Everyone needs to make their own mind up. I had a 2003 E65 & found it a very
comfortable car to drive over long distances. Looking forward to May


"Dori A Schmetterling" > wrote in message
...
> One of the Sunday Times UK motoring journalists, Andrew Frankel, rated
> himself not a fan of the updated BMW 7 despite the many improvements and

his
> love of the 3 and 5.
>
> He still thinks that the Merc S-Class does luxury saloons/sedans the best.
>
> http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/art...510977,00.html
>
> Copy text below my intials.
>
> DAS
>
> BMW 7-series
> By Andrew Frankel of The Sunday Times
> You asked for it, Fritz
>
>
>
> There's a rather simple but devastating ruse almost all car
> manufacturers employ to encourage people like me to write nice things

about
> their products. After flying us in great comfort to somewhere warm and
> inviting, giving us a few hours at the wheel and then wining and dining us
> at some fabulous hotel, someone will always produce the Killer Question:
> "So, what did you think of our car?" You have about two seconds to

formulate
> your response. Muttering something inaudible into your double Laphroaig

will
> result only in the question being repeated; while staring gimlet-eyed at
> your interrogator and saying that you would rather take the bus back to

the
> airport is tempting but impractical. But answer you must and by far the
> easiest option is to shrug and say "Oh, pretty good" in as non-committal a
> way as you can.
> And then they've got you. If you write anything else, you

appear
> at best inconsistent, at worst plain mendacious.
>
> I wrestled with this one as I drove BMW's new 7-series across
> 150 miles of pristine Andalusian countryside, discovering yet again that

the
> company that makes the M5 - the best car I drove last year - has failed to
> channel this talent into making a truly convincing luxury saloon.
>
>
>
> BMW has worked hard on the 7-series to bring about this
> comprehensive midlife update, cleaning up its once dubious looks, working

on
> its suspension and the infamous iDrive operating system and installing a

new
> range of scintillatingly powerful engines under the bonnet. And, as I said
> to the first BMW man who asked the Killer Question that evening, the whole
> is much improved.
>
> This should surprise no one. Not only has BMW had four years

to
> raise its flagship's standards, but the bar was, in my view, not high to
> begin with.
>
> So here are my criticisms: the car's ride quality is still not
> good enough, there's too much wind noise in the back, the iDrive remains a
> nonsense and the driving position is too high for me. These specific

faults
> merely support the altogether more subjective concern that the 7-series
> still does not feel like a truly luxurious car.
>
> Sure, it comes dripping in wood and leather and there's
> reasonable (if not exceptional) room in the back, but I could say as much
> about a Peugeot 607. To me, the truly luxurious car of the 21st century is
> one that makes every journey an occasion, one that makes you feel

privileged
> simply to be on board. It's a feeling I get every time I drive a Mercedes
> S-class, Audi A8 or Jaguar XJ. And it's a feeling I've never yet had in a
> 7-series.
>
> Even the car I tested, the £59,700 750i - which boasts a truly
> wondrous 4.8 litre, 362bhp motor and will go around corners at speeds many
> sports cars would find hard to follow - fails in this most important

regard.
> It's not sleekly beautiful like the Merc or Audi, nor, for all its sheer
> grip and raw speed, does it talk to its driver on the open road like the
> Jag.
>
> The second man to ask me the Killer Question got a eulogy on

how
> powerful and responsive I found the new motor, and with a 0-62mph time of
> 5.9sec and a top speed that would crack 170mph were it not restricted, I
> told no lies. What I didn't mention was that the car still felt like a
> conventional saloon that has been at the steroids to bulk it up and

provide
> more power.
>
> Above all, it creates the impression that BMW's innate
> understanding of what makes a car stand out in any given class - and what
> makes the 3-series and the 5-series the best cars in their respective
> categories - has gone missing at this level. The exterior may no longer be
> ugly but it's still some distance from being attractive - let alone
> beautiful - while the cabin, instead of standing as the crowning

achievement
> of BMW's interior designers, is the least pleasing of all its model

ranges.
>
> And after two days and many hours on board, including quite a
> few in the passenger seat with nothing better to do than fiddle with the
> controls, I still could not get my head around the allegedly simplified
> iDrive system that, via the medium of a single rotary dial, controls
> everything from the heating to the navigation, the radio to the suspension
> settings.
>
> One engineer was kind enough to imply that this inability said
> more about me than the car, so I referred him to Audi's MMI system, which
> does the same job but does it in such an intuitive way that even a dunce
> like me can figure it out in minutes.
>
> Yet despite it all, I can still see why a certain type of
> customer would find the prospect of 7-series ownership enticing. It's

still
> an exceptionally well-engineered car, and to someone who has come up

through
> the BMW ranks and expects BMW-style performance and handling, it feels

like
> they would expect it to: just like a very big 3-series or 5-series.
>
> I had decided I was not a 7-series person long before someone
> was unlucky enough to be the third person to ask me the Killer Question.
> "Are you a fan?" he inquired politely. This time I didn't need my two
> seconds of thinking time. I simply said "No" and left it at that.
>
> Vital statistics
>
> Model BMW 750i
> Engine type V8, 4799cc
> Power/torque 362bhp @ 6300rpm / 361 lb ft @ 3400rpm
> Transmission Six-speed automatic
> Fuel/CO2 24.8mpg (combined) / 271g/km
> Performance 0-62mph: 5.9sec / Top speed: 155mph (limited)
> Price £59,700
> Verdict A big sports saloon, not a true luxury car
> Rating 2/5
>
> The opposition
>
> Model Jaguar XJR, £60,970
> For Excellent performance, ride, handling and build
> Against Looks far too traditional and boring
>
> Model Mercedes-Benz S500, £63,910
> For Still the best luxury, looks, comfort, and strong
> second-hand value
> Against Showing its age, particularly on the inside
>
>
>
> For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
> ---
>
>
>



  #3  
Old March 7th 05, 08:24 AM
Michael Low
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thanks for posting the review Dori.

I think Andrew Frankel pretty well sums up how I feel about the 7er.
It seems a well-engineered car minus the interior and the i-Drive but
the worst thing is that it doesn't quite add up to the sense of
occasion that the S-Klasse or the Jaguar impart. I am less impressed
by the Audi's exterior although I think its interior is the most
refined of this group. The Mercedes has a somewhat boring but not
irritating interior. On the outside it is the best-looking of the lot
followed by the Jag.

I think the refresh was a bit too timid. The 7er is still a jumble of
different ideas that don't work together. Frankel is very accurate in
his assessment that the 7er is a big sports saloon but is not a luxury
car. The exterior is not elegant and the interior has too many
cheap-looking items and strange-looking clumsy lines and controls like
that huge gaping hole on top of the dash. I can't see how any designer
can consider the interior luxurious with that clumsy layout.

BMW doesn't seem to understand luxury. The 7er is too cold and
plain-looking. Of course, this doesn't mean people won't buy it - it
just means that those who buy it may not really understand what they
are buying and that may not bode well for future BMW offerings.

  #4  
Old March 7th 05, 11:27 PM
Frank Kemper
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Steve Garey" > haute in die Tasten:

> Still, I never did lieve everything I read in the press.


German car mag auto motor sport published a short review. They liked the
new look and missed major improvements to the interior. The iDrive System
basically remains the same although some additional buttons offer some
workarounds. They still quite eagerly criticise the position of the
electric seat adjustment levers. To be honest: How often do you feel the
urge to re-adjust your seat? They liked the new suspension setup with wider
rear track and they were full of confidence for the new engines.

My basic impression is: Those who basically like the E65 will be even more
pleased with the new model. And those who prefered an Audi A8 or an S-Class
will not necessarily change their mind.

Frank

--
please replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact

Citroen - Made in Trance
  #5  
Old March 11th 05, 12:12 AM
Daniel Arrepas
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Michael Low" > wrote in message
ups.com...

> BMW doesn't seem to understand luxury.


BMW also doesn't understand ergonomics, or might it be better to say they
don't care as much about ergonomics as other makes. It's kind of like (not
wanting to start a war here) when Europeans ridicule Americans as fat,
without understanding that "fat" to some Americans is as irrelevant to them
as dental hygiene is to Spaniards or Brits and body odor is to the French
(and Spaniards too).

I really don't think BMW cares as much about "luxury" in Mercedes/Lexus/Audi
terms, as they do about performance and safety, in BMW terms. Whereas luxury
might be #2 on Mercedes' list, it might be #4 on BMW's.

Maybe people who don't like BMW style luxury are really Mercedes or Lexus
people, though loathe to admit it.

> plain-looking. Of course, this doesn't mean people won't buy it - it
> just means that those who buy it may not really understand what they
> are buying and that may not bode well for future BMW offerings.


It seems a bit of a stretch to suggest that just because one person doesn't
like a car, that another person who is buying one may not understand what
they are buying. But of course ridiculing or minimizing another's opinion is
sometimes seen as the validation for one's polar opposite position.

In terms of ergonomics and luxury, BMW's have been goofy for quite a few
years, it's strange that many people and most mags are only now recognizing
that just because the exterior designs seem so extreme.


  #6  
Old March 11th 05, 01:26 AM
Ignasi Palou-Rivera
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Daniel Arrepas" > writes:

> "Michael Low" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
>> BMW doesn't seem to understand luxury.

>
> BMW also doesn't understand ergonomics, or might it be better to say they
> don't care as much about ergonomics as other makes. It's kind of like (not
> wanting to start a war here) when Europeans ridicule Americans as fat,
> without understanding that "fat" to some Americans is as irrelevant to them
> as dental hygiene is to Spaniards or Brits and body odor is to the French
> (and Spaniards too).


I don't even want to think how many stupid things you wrote in a single
paragraph. I guess accuracy is not that important to you...

--
Ignasi.
'90 325is
(using SPAM trap e-mail address)
  #7  
Old March 11th 05, 01:44 AM
Michael Low
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Actually, I understand what Daniel wrote. He was painting a "broad
brush" but IMO his idea is relevant.

I don't think he was saying all Spaniards or Brits don't care about
dental hygiene or all French people have body odour - or in fact all
Americans are fat. Just that they seem to be socially acceptable
realities in those societies.

  #8  
Old March 11th 05, 02:13 AM
Michael Low
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Daniel Arrepas wrote:
> "Michael Low" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>

<snip>

>
> > plain-looking. Of course, this doesn't mean people won't buy it -

it
> > just means that those who buy it may not really understand what

they
> > are buying and that may not bode well for future BMW offerings.

>
> It seems a bit of a stretch to suggest that just because one person

doesn't
> like a car, that another person who is buying one may not understand

what
> they are buying. But of course ridiculing or minimizing another's

opinion is
> sometimes seen as the validation for one's polar opposite position.
>



I don't think you fully understood what I wrote. Let me explain.

My contention is that BMW is trying to court a new, broader set of
customers at the expense of its traditional customers as well as BMW's
traditional appeal - that of refined drivers' cars in a luxury package.
The current BMW design philosophy is more like "jarring new shapes
delivered at lower costs with a preference for electronics and over
engineering".

There is actually nothing inherently wrong with people preferring the
"new BMW design philosophy". Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
However, promoting the new look will destroy the old BMW, the one that
stood for refined drivers' cars in a luxury package.

IMO, there isn't another maker who can do the "refined drivers' cars in
a luxury package" as well as BMW used to. We already have many funky
makes who can do performance - Alfa, Citroen, Nissan, Suzuki, ...etc.
We don't need BMW pretending to be one of them. BMW is killing the
goose - North Americans bought BMWs because they weren't like North
American or Japanese cars. Now BMW is behaving just like an American
car maker. That's why traditional BMW owners don't like it. When you
throw so many strange and different design cues into the market (i.e.
"shotgun approach") you lose much of the brand equity that BMW
tradition has earned. The shotgun approach to marketing is
well-recognized as a Japanese approach.

To be fair though, I think BMW may be simply suffering from its own
success - when you are small you can dictate and stick to your own
design philosophy. When you are big - to stay big you have to dumn
down to the market at large. That's why BMWs now look more like
Japanese cars. BMW is also going after new customers in China and SE
Asia.

  #9  
Old March 11th 05, 04:12 AM
Daniel Arrepas
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Michael Low" > wrote in message
oups.com...

> I don't think you fully understood what I wrote.


It wouldn't be the first time. And let me thank you for understanding that
my english is not all it could be at this point, and trying to understand
what I wrote earlier rather than assailing my intentions as the other fellow
did. I had no wish to offend anyone.

> .Let me explain.
>
> My contention is that BMW is trying to court a new, broader set of
> customers at the expense of its traditional customers as well as BMW's
> traditional appeal - that of refined drivers' cars in a luxury package.


> The current BMW design philosophy is more like "jarring new shapes
> delivered at lower costs with a preference for electronics and over
> engineering".
> There is actually nothing inherently wrong with people preferring the
> "new BMW design philosophy".
> However, promoting the new look will destroy the old BMW, the one that
> stood for refined drivers' cars in a luxury package.
>
> IMO, there isn't another maker who can do the "refined drivers' cars in
> a luxury package" as well as BMW used to. We already have many funky
> makes who can do performance - Alfa, Citroen, Nissan, Suzuki, ...etc.
> We don't need BMW pretending to be one of them. BMW is killing the
> goose - North Americans bought BMWs because they weren't like North
> American or Japanese cars. Now BMW is behaving just like an American
> car maker. That's why traditional BMW owners don't like it. When you
> throw so many strange and different design cues into the market (i.e.
> "shotgun approach") you lose much of the brand equity that BMW
> tradition has earned. The shotgun approach to marketing is
> well-recognized as a Japanese approach.
>
> To be fair though, I think BMW may be simply suffering from its own
> success - when you are small you can dictate and stick to your own
> design philosophy. When you are big - to stay big you have to dumn
> down to the market at large. That's why BMWs now look more like
> Japanese cars. BMW is also going after new customers in China and SE
> Asia.


On the whole I don't disagree with you other than to say:

1) there are people who like both the old and the new. Not everyone who
likes the new designs necessarily "prefers" it over the old designs. For
many people, and I do mean BMW afficianados, it isn't as polarizing an event
as it is in Usenet and magazines.

2) BMW still delivers the best driving sedan, "refined" as you accurately
described it. But some people are so tainted by their dislike for the look,
that they allow it to bend their perspective of how the rest of the car
functions.

3) Given the overwhelmingly improved chassis, suspension, and powerplants I
cannot agree with your suggestion that they are now allowing technology
overcome their engineering expertise. Though there is no doubt they, and the
other german makes, have gone goofy with computers and software in cars. But
the core goodness of BMW's remains true to their predecessors. If some
magazine guy/girl says it feels "detached' from the driving experience I
don't really care. I myself haven't had that reaction to the new cars. The
only truly unfortunate thing, other than Active Steering, is the weight. But
with new safety demands and coming regulatory demands, these cars can't help
but get heavier and have their exteriors somewhat predicated upon the
systems that will be required by law to fit in the cars.

At least they allow you to turn of most of the intrusive programs. Although
I think when you put a 2 ton car on the road capable of incredible speed and
acceleration it is incumbent upon you to develop systems that will save a
driver from themselves. You know, not everyone drives as well as us
newsgroup experts ha ha!

In the end I am not ready to give up on BMW. I never liked the look of all
their cars, and with this new crop of cars I am still in the same place. It
will all straighten out and as always there will be some BMW's I really like
and some I wouldn't even consider.

So while I can understand your opinion about the luxury quotient (though I
think that a plus since I like the staid plain interior rather than the Audi
wonderland of color), I am not ready to agree with your comment that the
cars have lost the "refined" driving capabilities of those they've replace.



  #10  
Old March 11th 05, 02:41 PM
Dori A Schmetterling
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Mercedes-Benz, unquestioningly, as seen in many parts of the world, incl UK,
though I am not sure what "driver's car" means in the context of a 7 or S.

The latest 7 may be the toughest challenge to the S from BMW yet, but
S-Class is still king of the hill.

Different matter further down the food chain.

On a related matter, I am not sure that BMW and Merc are direct competitors
at all levels. Different cars for different preferences, even if some sizes
are similar.

At the extreme, is the A-Class really 'equivalent' to the 1 Series?

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

"Michael Low" > wrote in message
oups.com...
[...]
>
> IMO, there isn't another maker who can do the "refined drivers' cars in
> a luxury package" as well as BMW used to

[...]


 




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