94 Saturn SL1 running Rich/trouble starting

First let me say I pretty much auto retarded. My 94 Saturn SL1 is running
way rich. It won't really start. I was having trouble with hard starts
so I took it to my neighbors trusty mechanic. He looked at the plugs and
they were old etc. He recomended a tune up at $125.00 where he would
replace the plugs and fuel filter. When I picked it up from the mechanic
it started fine and I drove it home. 2 hours later it wouldn't start.
After some cussing and what not I kept trying and I finally got a really
hard start that seemed like it wanted to stall. I drove it to the
mechanic and he looked at it for a while. He was real busy and it was a
Friday afternoon. Well at quitting time he called and said he still
hadn't figured it out, that it was running rich (way rich). I then
realized how the last couple of weeks my gas milage went from about 23 in
the city to 16.

So, the mechanic said he couldn't get to it til Tuesday and I've been
looking on the internet trying to figure out anything. I called a Saturn
dealer and a rather polite yet flustered fellow said it sounded like the
Enginge Coolant Temperature Sensor. From what I've been reading that sort
of sounds right, but then again I am an auto retard.

I bought the car 2 1/2 years ago with 118k miles on it. It has always ran
hot. Sometimes it starts to overheat so I flip on the heat and the air
condition button at the same time and it usually goes right down. I
always figured there was some sort of electrical glitch that messed with
the cooling fan. After reading a lot of the posts, I think it might be
tied in to this problem. This year I've already changed the water pump
and alternator. It's been a costly year, especially since I bought the
car for really cheap. I don't want to keep pumping money into it, but I'm
so broke there's no way I could afford a new car so.....I can either bring
it back to my neighbor's trusty, but busy mechanic who hasn't figured it
out yet (I've already given him $125.00 for a tune up and I don't think he
even changed the oil.) Or I can go to a Saturn Dealer where they said it
sounded like the Engine Cooling Sensor and estimated a $110.00 to fix.

Any advise would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your time and sorry
about rambling on.

Rob

sounds like the same problem i am having. might have to do with the EGR
system. do you smell gas when you start up your car? and also do you have
any engine codes or SES lights.

In article
outautos.com>,
says...
> Thanks,
>
> I accidently sent this first post with no message in it just a subject
> line. I re-sent a more detailed explanation of my predicament.
>
> I don't know what CT is?
>
> Thanks
>
>

Must of got cut off at your end, it said CTS. Coolant temp Sensor. More
below.


In article <ddba3562a21d0c7bcdd00e944b5dbef4
@localhost.talkaboutautos.com>, says...
> First let me say I pretty much auto retarded. My 94 Saturn SL1 is running
> way rich. It won't really start. I was having trouble with hard starts
> so I took it to my neighbors trusty mechanic. He looked at the plugs and
> they were old etc. He recomended a tune up at $125.00 where he would
> replace the plugs and fuel filter. When I picked it up from the mechanic
> it started fine and I drove it home. 2 hours later it wouldn't start.
> After some cussing and what not I kept trying and I finally got a really
> hard start that seemed like it wanted to stall. I drove it to the
> mechanic and he looked at it for a while. He was real busy and it was a
> Friday afternoon. Well at quitting time he called and said he still
> hadn't figured it out, that it was running rich (way rich). I then
> realized how the last couple of weeks my gas milage went from about 23 in
> the city to 16.
>
> So, the mechanic said he couldn't get to it til Tuesday and I've been
> looking on the internet trying to figure out anything. I called a Saturn
> dealer and a rather polite yet flustered fellow said it sounded like the
> Enginge Coolant Temperature Sensor. From what I've been reading that sort
> of sounds right, but then again I am an auto retard.
>
> I bought the car 2 1/2 years ago with 118k miles on it. It has always ran
> hot. Sometimes it starts to overheat so I flip on the heat and the air
> condition button at the same time and it usually goes right down. I
> always figured there was some sort of electrical glitch that messed with
> the cooling fan. After reading a lot of the posts, I think it might be
> tied in to this problem. This year I've already changed the water pump
> and alternator. It's been a costly year, especially since I bought the
> car for really cheap. I don't want to keep pumping money into it, but I'm
> so broke there's no way I could afford a new car so.....I can either bring
> it back to my neighbor's trusty, but busy mechanic who hasn't figured it
> out yet (I've already given him $125.00 for a tune up and I don't think he
> even changed the oil.) Or I can go to a Saturn Dealer where they said it
> sounded like the Engine Cooling Sensor and estimated a $110.00 to fix.
>
> Any advise would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your time and sorry
> about rambling on.
>
> Rob
>

Forget the dealership. You can goto autozone, advance auto parts, etc
etc and pick up a sensor for 20 bucks. Some teflon tape, a socket, a
ratchet, some coolant for top off, and less than 10 minutes later its
done. Your mechanic might be willing to do that for 10 bucks...
It probably wouldnt hurt to have your egr (as kent brought up) cleaned
out with some carb cleaner.

I do smell gas when I TRY to start up my car it usually takes time to start
it.

I don't really know what engine codes or SES lights are.

What is the EGR? And how much would that cost me?

Thanks for the reply

oh yeah Kent I read your post it does sound similar. I also disconnected
the battery and reconnected it and nothing happened, but I am a complete
novice.

In article
outautos.com>,
"Robo6" > wrote:

> I called a Saturn
> dealer and a rather polite yet flustered fellow said it sounded like the
> Enginge Coolant Temperature Sensor. From what I've been reading that sort
> of sounds right, but then again I am an auto retard.

My money's on the engine cooling sensor. Replace it first. You can do
it yourself if you have a 13mm deep socket wrench. I think it's 13mm,
at least. It needs to be deep. The sensor's about $15 dollars at an
auto store, or a few more at the dealer.

What this sensor does is tell the computer how hot or cold the engine
is. It doesn't work the temperature gauge, that's what the one wire
sensor near it is there for. It DOES work the fan, however. If the
computer thinks the car's cold, it'll run richer and of course, use more
gas. And it won't turn on the fan, because it thinks the car's cold.
Naturally, it'll always be trying to start in "It's REALLY cold out"
mode. BTW, if the car floods out, place your foot to the floor, and
crank the engine for a few seconds, while holding your foot down. This
activates flood clearing mode in the computer - it basically won't shoot
any gas in.

You'll notice too that your idle speed is a bit high, I bet.

The sensors - you have two - are on the right side of the engine, under
near the EGR valve (3 inch round UFO shaped thing to the right of the
head).

Follow the electric harness, you'll see there are two connectors going
into devices screwed into the engine's head. One has one wire, the
other has two. You need the two wire one replaced.

Disconnect the battery's negative terminal, and then with the engine
cold, feel the terminal on the two wire sensor. It's got a ribbed
portion. Squeeze it and gently wiggle it around, and you can pop it
off. Be careful not to break the wires, or you'll need to get the plug
replaced too. You'll feel the connector loosen up a bit when it's ready
to come off, and it'll slide right off pretty easy.

Use the socket to loosen and remove the sensor - some antifreeze will
pour out, though not too terribly much. You'll have to top off the car
afterwards.

Screw the new sensor in. I think you're supposed to use a thread
sealing compuond. Don't go crazy tightening it, but don't leave it too
loose or it'll leak. The book says 71 INCH pounds. This is about 5
foot pounds.

re connect the plug - it'll only go on the right way, and when it does,
it'll slide on asy, then *snap* in place. Gently pull on it (don't
squeeze), and if it stays on, you're good.

Put the negative cable on again, and then start the car and check the
coolant.

It should start easier, and run a lot better.

In article >,
says...
> In article
> outautos.com>,
> "Robo6" > wrote:
>
> > I called a Saturn
> > dealer and a rather polite yet flustered fellow said it sounded like the
> > Enginge Coolant Temperature Sensor. From what I've been reading that sort
> > of sounds right, but then again I am an auto retard.
>
> My money's on the engine cooling sensor. Replace it first. You can do
> it yourself if you have a 13mm deep socket wrench. I think it's 13mm,
> at least. It needs to be deep. The sensor's about $15 dollars at an
> auto store, or a few more at the dealer.
>
> What this sensor does is tell the computer how hot or cold the engine
> is. It doesn't work the temperature gauge, that's what the one wire
> sensor near it is there for. It DOES work the fan, however. If the
> computer thinks the car's cold, it'll run richer and of course, use more
> gas. And it won't turn on the fan, because it thinks the car's cold.
> Naturally, it'll always be trying to start in "It's REALLY cold out"
> mode. BTW, if the car floods out, place your foot to the floor, and
> crank the engine for a few seconds, while holding your foot down. This
> activates flood clearing mode in the computer - it basically won't shoot
> any gas in.
>
> You'll notice too that your idle speed is a bit high, I bet.
>
> The sensors - you have two - are on the right side of the engine, under
> near the EGR valve (3 inch round UFO shaped thing to the right of the
> head).
>
> Follow the electric harness, you'll see there are two connectors going
> into devices screwed into the engine's head. One has one wire, the
> other has two. You need the two wire one replaced.
>
> Disconnect the battery's negative terminal, and then with the engine
> cold, feel the terminal on the two wire sensor. It's got a ribbed
> portion. Squeeze it and gently wiggle it around, and you can pop it
> off. Be careful not to break the wires, or you'll need to get the plug
> replaced too. You'll feel the connector loosen up a bit when it's ready
> to come off, and it'll slide right off pretty easy.
>
> Use the socket to loosen and remove the sensor - some antifreeze will
> pour out, though not too terribly much. You'll have to top off the car
> afterwards.
>
> Screw the new sensor in. I think you're supposed to use a thread
> sealing compuond. Don't go crazy tightening it, but don't leave it too
> loose or it'll leak. The book says 71 INCH pounds. This is about 5
> foot pounds.


Very helpful post Phil but I think its larger than 13mm. I was just
thinking, he might be able to just plug in a new sensor without having
to do anything else and while the engine is cold start it. The new
sensor would then give the ecm the correct ambient temperature value of
a cool engine. If it starts right up then that would certainly be it. A
easy diagnosis if thats as much as he's able/willing to himself.

SES light is the light that comes on your dash light area that says Service
Engine Soon. it should come on when you first turn the key to the on
position. i think we really do have the same problem if you are smelling
gas. my guess is that we have some sort of EGR(exaust gas recirculation)
system vacuum leak. and probably leaking the exaust fumes that we keep
smelling. its nothing serious and its probably a quick fix. there is a
website that i did some searching on how one guy did
it(http://wright.cs.uakron.edu/saturn/code32-26.html)
but does your Service Engine Soon light come on? if it does you need to go
to autozone and get a GM code key and find out your engine codes in your
cars computer. then you will get a more better idea of what you have to
do. i just went there today and got one. and i did have the code 32 which
involves the egr system. keep me updated.

My suggestion would be to spring for the $30 or $40 fee that a Saturn dealer
charges for diagnosis. Usually they can plug into the PCM and tell exactly
what's wrong. If it saves you from buying ONE part based on guesses (and
I've read a lot of them here), it has paid for itself.

Lane [ lane (at) evilplastic.com ]
---
Visit my Saturn Car Audio and Performance Page at http://www.evilplastic.com



"Blah Blah" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
> > In article
> > outautos.com>,
> > "Robo6" > wrote:
> >
> > > I called a Saturn
> > > dealer and a rather polite yet flustered fellow said it sounded like
the
> > > Enginge Coolant Temperature Sensor. From what I've been reading that
sort
> > > of sounds right, but then again I am an auto retard.
> >
> > My money's on the engine cooling sensor. Replace it first. You can do
> > it yourself if you have a 13mm deep socket wrench. I think it's 13mm,
> > at least. It needs to be deep. The sensor's about $15 dollars at an
> > auto store, or a few more at the dealer.
> >
> > What this sensor does is tell the computer how hot or cold the engine
> > is. It doesn't work the temperature gauge, that's what the one wire
> > sensor near it is there for. It DOES work the fan, however. If the
> > computer thinks the car's cold, it'll run richer and of course, use more
> > gas. And it won't turn on the fan, because it thinks the car's cold.
> > Naturally, it'll always be trying to start in "It's REALLY cold out"
> > mode. BTW, if the car floods out, place your foot to the floor, and
> > crank the engine for a few seconds, while holding your foot down. This
> > activates flood clearing mode in the computer - it basically won't shoot
> > any gas in.
> >
> > You'll notice too that your idle speed is a bit high, I bet.
> >
> > The sensors - you have two - are on the right side of the engine, under
> > near the EGR valve (3 inch round UFO shaped thing to the right of the
> > head).
> >
> > Follow the electric harness, you'll see there are two connectors going
> > into devices screwed into the engine's head. One has one wire, the
> > other has two. You need the two wire one replaced.
> >
> > Disconnect the battery's negative terminal, and then with the engine
> > cold, feel the terminal on the two wire sensor. It's got a ribbed
> > portion. Squeeze it and gently wiggle it around, and you can pop it
> > off. Be careful not to break the wires, or you'll need to get the plug
> > replaced too. You'll feel the connector loosen up a bit when it's ready
> > to come off, and it'll slide right off pretty easy.
> >
> > Use the socket to loosen and remove the sensor - some antifreeze will
> > pour out, though not too terribly much. You'll have to top off the car
> > afterwards.
> >
> > Screw the new sensor in. I think you're supposed to use a thread
> > sealing compuond. Don't go crazy tightening it, but don't leave it too
> > loose or it'll leak. The book says 71 INCH pounds. This is about 5
> > foot pounds.
>
>
> Very helpful post Phil but I think its larger than 13mm. I was just
> thinking, he might be able to just plug in a new sensor without having
> to do anything else and while the engine is cold start it. The new
> sensor would then give the ecm the correct ambient temperature value of
> a cool engine. If it starts right up then that would certainly be it. A
> easy diagnosis if thats as much as he's able/willing to himself.
>

Thanks a lot for all the advise!! I'm going to Auto Zone first thing
tomorrow and getting a new sensor then the fun begins. I hope that's the
only problem. Just in case I end up battered and bloodied as I attempt
this myself how much would a mechanic charge. Does $110 sound about
right?