.sig change

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 08:45:55 GMT, Catman
> wrote:

>>Zathras wrote:
<snip>
>> I know what you're saying but my experience is that you rarely get the
>> chance in real life to apply *that* experience in an effective way.
>
>With respect, the writers of the article tend to dis-agree.

I've not seen the article so can't comment on it. However, it's in a
news paper and, at least, subject to the editings of some old hack.
This alone is enough to flash up *beware nonsense alert* warning signs
for me. Anyway, it's fine to disagree with me - if nobody
did..er..well it just doesn't bear thinking about!!!

<snip>

>1) I've learnt that my anticipation of where and when ice forms needs work,
>and will be monitored

That's a rather refreshing approach - I think most folks would rather
blame somebody/something else and not even question their own
involvement! In my experience an external temp gauge is *very* useful
> 3C = fine < 3C = beware! Never been caught out in many years driving
with them. They work very well at advising of dropping or rising temps
as you're driving - something that's quite difficult to monitor if you
don't drive with your window open in winter!!

>2) Had I had more experience I *may* have been able to react quicker, and
>more appropriately, perhaps reducing the the severity of the ultimate
>impact.

I can only agree - you're the one who best knows that situation.

>Either way, I can't see it can do any harm. I'm not gonna think I'm Colin
>McRae all of a sudden

I take you back to my earlier comment - it's also great fun so
entertain yourself.

As for the duff comparison to Colin "Cra****" McRae - I'm sure you
could do *much* better.... :-) If you'd been driving like him you'd
have wrapped the Alfa round a tree and sent the whole lot down a
ravine upside down into a lake for good measure!!!!

--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!)

"Catman" wrote:

> Either way, I can't see it can do any harm. I'm not gonna think I'm Colin
> McRae all of a sudden

Probably a good thing, otherwise you would need more web space for your
collection of pictures of bent cars...

Zathras wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 08:45:55 GMT, Catman
> > wrote:
>
>
>>>Zathras wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>>I know what you're saying but my experience is that you rarely get the
>>>chance in real life to apply *that* experience in an effective way.
>>
>>With respect, the writers of the article tend to dis-agree.
>
>
> I've not seen the article so can't comment on it. However, it's in a
> news paper and, at least, subject to the editings of some old hack.
> This alone is enough to flash up *beware nonsense alert* warning signs
> for me. Anyway, it's fine to disagree with me - if nobody
> did..er..well it just doesn't bear thinking about!!!
>
> <snip>
>
>>1) I've learnt that my anticipation of where and when ice forms needs work,
>>and will be monitored
>
>
> That's a rather refreshing approach - I think most folks would rather
> blame somebody/something else and not even question their own
> involvement! In my experience an external temp gauge is *very* useful
>
>>3C = fine < 3C = beware! Never been caught out in many years driving
>
> with them. They work very well at advising of dropping or rising temps
> as you're driving - something that's quite difficult to monitor if you
> don't drive with your window open in winter!!
>
>
>>2) Had I had more experience I *may* have been able to react quicker, and
>>more appropriately, perhaps reducing the the severity of the ultimate
>>impact.
>
>
> I can only agree - you're the one who best knows that situation.
>
>
>>Either way, I can't see it can do any harm. I'm not gonna think I'm Colin
>>McRae all of a sudden
>
>
> I take you back to my earlier comment - it's also great fun so
> entertain yourself.
>
> As for the duff comparison to Colin "Cra****" McRae - I'm sure you
> could do *much* better.... :-) If you'd been driving like him you'd
> have wrapped the Alfa round a tree and sent the whole lot down a
> ravine upside down into a lake for good measure!!!!
>

Ahem - the proper nickname for Colin McRae is actually Colin McCrash.
You have to admit, when he has an accident he doesn't go in for half
measures - it's all or nothing. This month's CAR magazine has an article
about his Dakar rally accident, and an entertaining collection of
pictures of wrecked Subarus.

Did you know he trained as a central heating engineer? Imagine him
charging around the countryside in a white Astramax van...

Halmyre

Tony Rickard wrote:

>
> "Catman" wrote:
>
>> Either way, I can't see it can do any harm. I'm not gonna think I'm
>> Colin McRae all of a sudden
>
> Probably a good thing, otherwise you would need more web space for your
> collection of pictures of bent cars...
Heh
--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
Alfa 116 Giulietta 3.0l (Really) Sprint 1.7 75 2.0 TS (Badly bent) 155 TS
Triumph Speed Triple: Black with extra black bits
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:07:44 GMT, Halmyre > wrote:

>Zathras wrote:

>> As for the duff comparison to Colin "Cra****" McRae - I'm sure you
>> could do *much* better.... :-) If you'd been driving like him you'd
>> have wrapped the Alfa round a tree and sent the whole lot down a
>> ravine upside down into a lake for good measure!!!!
>>
>
>Ahem - the proper nickname for Colin McRae is actually Colin McCrash.

I knew that one but prefer mine! YMMV. We're agreed that Catman needs
a slightly better role model though?!!!! ;-)

--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!)

Zathras wrote:

> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 08:45:55 GMT, Catman
> > wrote:
>
>>>Zathras wrote:
> <snip>
>>> I know what you're saying but my experience is that you rarely get the
>>> chance in real life to apply *that* experience in an effective way.
>>
>>With respect, the writers of the article tend to dis-agree.
>
> I've not seen the article so can't comment on it. However, it's in a
> news paper and, at least, subject to the editings of some old hack.
> This alone is enough to flash up *beware nonsense alert* warning signs
> for me.

And I, in many cases. Can't discount *just* cos of that though.
> Anyway, it's fine to disagree with me - if nobody
> did..er..well it just doesn't bear thinking about!!!




> <snip>
>
>>1) I've learnt that my anticipation of where and when ice forms needs
>>work, and will be monitored
>
> That's a rather refreshing approach - I think most folks would rather
> blame somebody/something else and not even question their own
> involvement! In my experience an external temp gauge is *very* useful
>> 3C = fine < 3C = beware!

Used to have one. On the day in question I was pretty sure it was sub-zero,
but the roads were dry.....

>> Never been caught out in many years driving
> with them. They work very well at advising of dropping or rising temps
> as you're driving - something that's quite difficult to monitor if you
> don't drive with your window open in winter!!

Ho yuss

>>2) Had I had more experience I *may* have been able to react quicker, and
>>more appropriately, perhaps reducing the the severity of the ultimate
>>impact.
>
> I can only agree - you're the one who best knows that situation.
>
>>Either way, I can't see it can do any harm. I'm not gonna think I'm Colin
>>McRae all of a sudden
>
> I take you back to my earlier comment - it's also great fun so
> entertain yourself.

Yeah, Last decent snow we had I was out in the car park practising
handbrake turns

> As for the duff comparison to Colin "Cra****" McRae - I'm sure you
> could do *much* better.... :-) If you'd been driving like him you'd
> have wrapped the Alfa round a tree and sent the whole lot down a
> ravine upside down into a lake for good measure!!!!

Yes. Perhaps I should have used one of the Finns for comparison instead

--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
Alfa 116 Giulietta 3.0l (Really) Sprint 1.7 75 2.0 TS (Badly bent) 155 TS
Triumph Speed Triple: Black with extra black bits
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

Zathras wrote:

> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:07:44 GMT, Halmyre > wrote:
>
>>Zathras wrote:
>
>>> As for the duff comparison to Colin "Cra****" McRae - I'm sure you
>>> could do *much* better.... :-) If you'd been driving like him you'd
>>> have wrapped the Alfa round a tree and sent the whole lot down a
>>> ravine upside down into a lake for good measure!!!!
>>>
>>
>>Ahem - the proper nickname for Colin McRae is actually Colin McCrash.
>
> I knew that one but prefer mine! YMMV. We're agreed that Catman needs
> a slightly better role model though?!!!! ;-)
>
'Roll' model?
--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
Alfa 116 Giulietta 3.0l (Really) Sprint 1.7 75 2.0 TS (Badly bent) 155 TS
Triumph Speed Triple: Black with extra black bits
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 13:28:54 GMT, Catman
> wrote:

>Zathras wrote:

>> I knew that one but prefer mine! YMMV. We're agreed that Catman needs
>> a slightly better role model though?!!!! ;-)
>>
>'Roll' model?

Booo hissss!!

--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 08:45:55 GMT, Catman
> wrote:

>Zathras wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 23:02:54 GMT, Catman
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>Zathras wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 22:49:54 GMT, Catman
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>> Interesting bit in the Torygraph today about skid pan training though.
>>>>>Anyone up for booking a session?
>>>>
>>>> Trouble is that skid pans are often bigger than roads with no
>>>> on-coming traffic and you can spot them a mile off!! It's a good laugh
>>>> though.
>>>>
>>>Apparently it's the experience that counts. Just having felt it give you
>>>more time to react.
>>
>> I know what you're saying but my experience is that you rarely get the
>> chance in real life to apply *that* experience in an effective way.
>
<snip>
>No offence taken at all. I understand exactly where you're coming from and
>look at it like this:
>1) I've learnt that my anticipation of where and when ice forms needs work,
>and will be monitored
>2) Had I had more experience I *may* have been able to react quicker, and
>more appropriately, perhaps reducing the the severity of the ultimate
>impact.
>
>Either way, I can't see it can do any harm. I'm not gonna think I'm Colin
>McRae all of a sudden
>

Jumping into the middle of a two-person discussion is tough, so
forgive any awkwardness on my part.

Now I didn't take the full skid school course, but I was lucky enough
to fanagle my way into a condensed, half-day session on the skidpad,
and I have to say I think it was a highly useful way to spend my time.


Living where I do, I've had plenty of experience in bad winter
conditions -- ice, snow, slush, black ice, you name it -- but I still
didn't feel like I was qualified to become an ice rally driver. <g>
About the only training anybody ever gets here is the wonderful advice
"steer into the skid" which we all know can be interpretted in about
as many different ways as there are people who drive.

Hitting the skid pad with a qualified instructor who can truly explain
what to do and why, and then being able to experience what is being
taught is really the best way to learn the optimal way of dealing with
a bad situation.

The first run (which I humbly admit, I did fairly well on) was done as
I would normally do it -- without any advice. The instructor wanted me
to see what it was like. The next few runs -- with the ABS on, with
the ABS off, even trying a few of the things that a big no-nos -- were
eye opening. My reaction time improved, and my control got better.

Now that's all well and good in a controlled situation, but as has
been pointed out, a real life skid is not a controlled situation by
any means.

The biggest thing I took away from the session was learning where to
look if I find myself skidding. Learning where to keep your eyes does
allow you to keep better control of your car. It also teaches you that
there are steps to take when things take a turn for the worse, and
knowing those steps -- having them there for quick recall -- helps to
make sure panic doesn't set in after the initial "oh crap" reaction.

Now I know that my little session hasn't left me the world's most
brilliant driver. I know that I can still mess up badly. I try not to
get into dangerous situations in the first place because that is the
safest route. But, and it's a big but, I do firmly believe that my
ability to control a car that has lost its grip is better. It's not
perfect, but it is improved, and as far as I'm concerned, that can't
be a bad thing.

Now I've been lucky enough (knock on wood) since the instruction
(which was about a decade ago now, even though it doesn't seem that
long) not to have put myself in the situation where my life has
depended on my ability to get myself out of a really, really bad skid.
I don't know if I would be able to save myself if that happened.

I do know, however, that in the few minor instances when the car has
come slightly unglued, I have calmly got it heading back in the right
direction, and that I've tended to rely on what I recall learning from
that skid school instructor.

I firmly believe that all new drivers should be forced to take a
complete, defensive driving/skid school course. What passes as
drivers' training around here doesn't even come close to real
instruction. Actually there is no requirement that a person actually
takes instruction. As long as a person can pass the written and in car
tests, they are issued a licence.

One of these days when the time and money permit, I'd love to take
another, advanced session, and after that there's a stunt school I'd
love to try. Yes I want to put cars owned by other people into a
"Rockford spin" as taught by the stunt co-ordinator and instructor
from The Rockford Files. :-D I certainly don't want to ruin my own
tires, suspension, engine, bodywork or whatever else could go wrong
when performing such unnecessary moves. ;-)

I guess to sum up this overly long post, is that if you've got the
opportunity to take a course at a qualified skid school, it certainly
won't hurt. It's fun and you might learn something. And even if you
don't, it's a day/a couple days behind the wheel thrashing a borrowed
car without having to be stuck in traffic (although an on-road session
is usually included in a full course).
--Vic

da wrote:

> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 08:45:55 GMT, Catman
> > wrote:
>
>>Zathras wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 23:02:54 GMT, Catman
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>Zathras wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 22:49:54 GMT, Catman
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>> Interesting bit in the Torygraph today about skid pan training
>>>>>> though.
>>>>>>Anyone up for booking a session?
>>>>>
>>>>> Trouble is that skid pans are often bigger than roads with no
>>>>> on-coming traffic and you can spot them a mile off!! It's a good laugh
>>>>> though.
>>>>>
>>>>Apparently it's the experience that counts. Just having felt it give
>>>>you more time to react.
>>>
>>> I know what you're saying but my experience is that you rarely get the
>>> chance in real life to apply *that* experience in an effective way.
>>
> <snip>
>>No offence taken at all. I understand exactly where you're coming from
>>and look at it like this:
>>1) I've learnt that my anticipation of where and when ice forms needs
>>work, and will be monitored
>>2) Had I had more experience I *may* have been able to react quicker, and
>>more appropriately, perhaps reducing the the severity of the ultimate
>>impact.
>>
>>Either way, I can't see it can do any harm. I'm not gonna think I'm Colin
>>McRae all of a sudden
>>
>
> Jumping into the middle of a two-person discussion is tough, so
> forgive any awkwardness on my part.
>
It's a public forum, and it's been too damn quiet in here recently. Jump in
wherever you want

<snip>
> The biggest thing I took away from the session was learning where to
> look if I find myself skidding. Learning where to keep your eyes does
> allow you to keep better control of your car. It also teaches you that
> there are steps to take when things take a turn for the worse, and
> knowing those steps -- having them there for quick recall -- helps to
> make sure panic doesn't set in after the initial "oh crap" reaction.

See? I have *no* idea where I should be looking.

> Now I know that my little session hasn't left me the world's most
> brilliant driver. I know that I can still mess up badly. I try not to
> get into dangerous situations in the first place because that is the
> safest route. But, and it's a big but, I do firmly believe that my
> ability to control a car that has lost its grip is better. It's not
> perfect, but it is improved, and as far as I'm concerned, that can't
> be a bad thing.

ding

<snip>
>
> I firmly believe that all new drivers should be forced to take a
> complete, defensive driving/skid school course. What passes as
> drivers' training around here doesn't even come close to real
> instruction. Actually there is no requirement that a person actually
> takes instruction. As long as a person can pass the written and in car
> tests, they are issued a licence.

Aye. And the standard related to by those tests is, IMO, pitiful.

> One of these days when the time and money permit, I'd love to take
> another, advanced session, and after that there's a stunt school I'd
> love to try. Yes I want to put cars owned by other people into a
> "Rockford spin" as taught by the stunt co-ordinator and instructor
> from The Rockford Files. :-D I certainly don't want to ruin my own
> tires, suspension, engine, bodywork or whatever else could go wrong
> when performing such unnecessary moves. ;-)
>
> I guess to sum up this overly long post, is that if you've got the
> opportunity to take a course at a qualified skid school, it certainly
> won't hurt. It's fun and you might learn something. And even if you
> don't, it's a day/a couple days behind the wheel thrashing a borrowed
> car without having to be stuck in traffic (although an on-road session
> is usually included in a full course).

Yep. Birthday pressie I think
--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
Alfa 116 Giulietta 3.0l (Really) Sprint 1.7 75 2.0 TS (Badly bent) 155 TS
Triumph Speed Triple: Black with extra black bits
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk