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I need a better winter car...



 
 
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  #51  
Old March 3rd 05, 08:39 PM
Somebody
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"Michael Low" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> The Malt Hound wrote:
> > "Big Bill" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Well, I learned how to drive in the snow in Pa.
> > > I learned that when you simply plow into the snow, and it gets
> > > packed
> > > under the car, it lifts you up, and the tires lose traction.
> > > I haven't noticed any changes in show that would have changed this,
> > > and, seeing the OP's pics, I am confident in saying that.
> > > I wonder where you drive that this is not so.

> >
> >
> > I learned to (and currently) drive in the snow in northern New
> > England. What you say is definitely true should you drive into a

> bank
> > or pileup created by a snowplow. But if it is just unpacked deep
> > snow, you can definitely go through snow as high or higher than the
> > bumper.
> >
> > YM(and snow)MV,
> > -Fred W

>
>
> Fred, you are a knowledgeable guy but you are wrong on this one.
>
> You are guaranteed to get stuck if you insist on plowing through snow
> that does not clear the underside of your car. It's one thing to go
> over a short bump on the road but you cannot plow through a distance on
> this stuff, regardless of what kind of wheels you are driving. Wheels
> have to touch "ground" with sufficient weight to provide traction.


Sorry, I've done this for hundreds of meters at a stretch in snow up to the
bumper in my iX -- ie if you stop and open your doors you are pushing snow
out of the way. It packs into the brake ducts and covers the fog lights and
the openings to the oil cooler, and leaves a neat trail behind me, but it
doesn't stop me. Guaranteed or not, I've done it.


>
> The reason is simple - if the underside of your car touches the snow,
> your car will become a very inefficient snowplow and the snow will
> bunch up against the underbody of your car and pack itself. The
> momentum of your car will eventually leave your wheels "hanging" from
> the "ground". As the weight of the car diminish from the packed snow,
> the amount of traction you get from whatevr tire or drivetrain will
> vanish.


Ever looked under an E30? It's flat from the front crossmember back with
only a couple of very minor protrusions. The only way what you say would be
true is if the front was higher than the back so that snow was wedging the
car upwards.

> You will get stuck as you try to move through this kind of condition.
> Clearance is the issue if your tires can provide traction on the
> surface. Snow must not touch the underside of your car. Of course, if
> your tires are wrong then clearance doesn't matter. You're not even
> moving.


Again, if your air dam is plowing it, snow doesn't touch the underside of
your car because it's flat.

-Russ.


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  #52  
Old March 3rd 05, 08:51 PM
fbloogyudsr
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"Somebody" > wrote
> Again, if your air dam is plowing it, snow doesn't touch the underside of
> your car because it's flat.


Two things you have neglected in your discussion.
1) If you try to go through a drift, the front wheels are likely to plane
up on the more densely packed snow, then drop down the other side,
which puts the car into a teeter-totter on the drift.
2) A car is often higher in the front, either due to weight/loading,
or by weight shift (granted, small if you're a smart winter driver), or
by the action of the air dam deflecting snow downward.

FloydR
  #53  
Old March 3rd 05, 09:31 PM
Alex Rodriguez
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In article >,
says...
>My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles great,
>but I get stuck everywhere! Today, I got stuck *twice* within a couple
>of minutes. Same scenario, hit a snowdrift and snow goes flying onto the
>windshield. I brake because I can't see anything, and then I'm stuck... :-(
>First time, notice how little snow it actually takes:
>
http://members.roadfly.org/ulf/bmw1.jpg
>http://members.roadfly.org/ulf/bmw2.jpg
>Second time, this time the car stopped in the next snowdrift:
>http://members.roadfly.org/ulf/bmw3.jpg
>http://members.roadfly.org/ulf/bmw4.jpg
>Notice that both times I'm stuck completely *on* the road.
>I'm leaning more and more towards a 525xi, nothing like AWD to avoid
>getting stuck. :-)


Looks like you need more practice driving in the snow. The center of the
road looks fine. Keep it down the middle and you should be fine. You should
also get 4 snow tires to help you keep it down the middle.
------------
Alex

  #54  
Old March 3rd 05, 10:07 PM
Badger
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"Bradburn Fentress" > wrote in message
...
>
> Interesting. I live above Vail Colorado. We see a lot of snow. We've been
> seeing a lot of snow all our lives. We are somewhat used to a lot of snow.
> Yet no one around here is able to plow down the road in their 3,500 lb car
> in over the bumper snow with the ease you suggest New Englanders enjoy.


Same in Northern Scotland.

> I don't buy it. In snow as deep as being spoken about here, cars tend to
> ride up and lose all or some of the contact patch. It's just the way it
> works when a car has limited clearance in deep snow.


I agree, and I've driven in snow deep enough to get my 2500kg landrover
4.0V8 beached out and going nowhere!

> Plus, I don't think Hakka's are the best snow tires for where I live
> anyway
> (to keep context correct, the tires I have owned were the Hakkapelita Q).
> They are pretty effective in fresh snow (braking, acceleration), crappy in
> slush or heavily wetted snow and lateral traction in any snow is about as
> bad as I have ever experienced which cause them to not track well. Superb
> ice tire though. I got the sense the tire is designed for conditions where
> the temps are uncommonly low all the time and every snow fall eventually
> becomes hardpack and then ice. I can imagine these tires are spectacular
> in that kind of condition.
>
> For my money, for the area where I live, the Blizzak MZ-02 seems to suit
> the
> conditions best. But only when the car in question can maintain the
> contact
> patch.


When it snows heavy here, the best tyres for my landrover are...... Leave
it at hom and take the Landy to work! ;-)
Badger.


  #55  
Old March 3rd 05, 10:28 PM
Somebody
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"fbloogyudsr" > wrote in message
...
> "Somebody" > wrote
> > Again, if your air dam is plowing it, snow doesn't touch the underside

of
> > your car because it's flat.

>
> Two things you have neglected in your discussion.
> 1) If you try to go through a drift, the front wheels are likely to plane
> up on the more densely packed snow, then drop down the other side,
> which puts the car into a teeter-totter on the drift.
> 2) A car is often higher in the front, either due to weight/loading,
> or by weight shift (granted, small if you're a smart winter driver), or
> by the action of the air dam deflecting snow downward.


1) I mentioned in my previous post
2) short of a huge weight in the back most cars aren't lower in the back.
Some air dams form a wedge to push it downwards, (most bimmers) have a wedge
to push snow upwards.

-Russ.


  #56  
Old March 3rd 05, 10:42 PM
The Malt Hound
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"Somebody" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Michael Low" > wrote in message
> ps.com...
>>
>> The Malt Hound wrote:
>> > "Big Bill" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> > > Well, I learned how to drive in the snow in Pa.
>> > > I learned that when you simply plow into the snow, and it gets
>> > > packed
>> > > under the car, it lifts you up, and the tires lose traction.
>> > > I haven't noticed any changes in show that would have changed
>> > > this,
>> > > and, seeing the OP's pics, I am confident in saying that.
>> > > I wonder where you drive that this is not so.
>> >
>> >
>> > I learned to (and currently) drive in the snow in northern New
>> > England. What you say is definitely true should you drive into a

>> bank
>> > or pileup created by a snowplow. But if it is just unpacked deep
>> > snow, you can definitely go through snow as high or higher than
>> > the
>> > bumper.
>> >
>> > YM(and snow)MV,
>> > -Fred W

>>
>>
>> Fred, you are a knowledgeable guy but you are wrong on this one.
>>
>> You are guaranteed to get stuck if you insist on plowing through
>> snow
>> that does not clear the underside of your car. It's one thing to
>> go
>> over a short bump on the road but you cannot plow through a
>> distance on
>> this stuff, regardless of what kind of wheels you are driving.
>> Wheels
>> have to touch "ground" with sufficient weight to provide traction.

>
> Sorry, I've done this for hundreds of meters at a stretch in snow up
> to the
> bumper in my iX -- ie if you stop and open your doors you are
> pushing snow
> out of the way. It packs into the brake ducts and covers the fog
> lights and
> the openings to the oil cooler, and leaves a neat trail behind me,
> but it
> doesn't stop me. Guaranteed or not, I've done it.
>
>
>>
>> The reason is simple - if the underside of your car touches the
>> snow,
>> your car will become a very inefficient snowplow and the snow will
>> bunch up against the underbody of your car and pack itself. The
>> momentum of your car will eventually leave your wheels "hanging"
>> from
>> the "ground". As the weight of the car diminish from the packed
>> snow,
>> the amount of traction you get from whatevr tire or drivetrain will
>> vanish.

>
> Ever looked under an E30? It's flat from the front crossmember back
> with
> only a couple of very minor protrusions. The only way what you say
> would be
> true is if the front was higher than the back so that snow was
> wedging the
> car upwards.
>
>> You will get stuck as you try to move through this kind of
>> condition.
>> Clearance is the issue if your tires can provide traction on the
>> surface. Snow must not touch the underside of your car. Of
>> course, if
>> your tires are wrong then clearance doesn't matter. You're not
>> even
>> moving.

>
> Again, if your air dam is plowing it, snow doesn't touch the
> underside of
> your car because it's flat.
>
> -Russ.
>
>


There's no use arguing the point Russ.

You know, it's really not that big of a thing guys... it just depends
on how light and fluffy, or wet and compact the snow is.

Yes, you can high center a car on snow that's been compacted. But you
can also blast through it if it has not been compacted. Now... can we
move on or what?

-Fred W


  #57  
Old March 3rd 05, 11:11 PM
fbloogyudsr
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Somebody" > wrote
> "fbloogyudsr" > wrote
>> "Somebody" > wrote
>> > Again, if your air dam is plowing it, snow doesn't touch the underside

> of
>> > your car because it's flat.

>>
>> Two things you have neglected in your discussion.
>> 1) If you try to go through a drift, the front wheels are likely to
>> plane
>> up on the more densely packed snow, then drop down the other side,
>> which puts the car into a teeter-totter on the drift.
>> 2) A car is often higher in the front, either due to weight/loading,
>> or by weight shift (granted, small if you're a smart winter driver), or
>> by the action of the air dam deflecting snow downward.

>
> 1) I mentioned in my previous post
> 2) short of a huge weight in the back most cars aren't lower in the back.


Wrong. Most BMW's have pretty even weight distribution - figured with
driver only. Add more passengers and the car is rear-heavy. Unless the
car (7-series, wagons) has self-levelling suspension, it's down at the back.

> Some air dams form a wedge to push it downwards, (most bimmers) have a
> wedge
> to push snow upwards.


Wrong. My 330xi will push it down. My '91 525i will push it down.
A modern 5-series has a very rounded front-end when viewed from
the side. Even if the lower edge is quite sharp (possibly M3/M5)
with no fence (and they all have a flexible fence due to curb rash
possibilities), physics tells us that the act of splitting the flow
(of the snow over the edge) will result in upwards force on the dam.
The *only* exception to this would be a perfect snowplow resting
on the perfect plowed surface with no snow between the blade
and surface. Never happen.

Floyd

  #58  
Old March 3rd 05, 11:47 PM
Pat
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
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I have 95 318is...always winter driven with 4 snows in very heavy snow
(Quebec City). Manual trans (big help) & when necessary extra weight in
trunk over axle (e.g...couple bags of sand). Never had problem ...knock on
wood.

padraig

"Ulf" > wrote in message
...
> My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles great,
> but I get stuck everywhere! Today, I got stuck *twice* within a couple
> of minutes. Same scenario, hit a snowdrift and snow goes flying onto the
> windshield. I brake because I can't see anything, and then I'm stuck...

:-(
>
> First time, notice how little snow it actually takes:
>
> http://members.roadfly.org/ulf/bmw1.jpg
> http://members.roadfly.org/ulf/bmw2.jpg
>
> Second time, this time the car stopped in the next snowdrift:
>
> http://members.roadfly.org/ulf/bmw3.jpg
> http://members.roadfly.org/ulf/bmw4.jpg
>
> Notice that both times I'm stuck completely *on* the road.
>
> I'm leaning more and more towards a 525xi, nothing like AWD to avoid
> getting stuck. :-)
>
> Ulf



  #59  
Old March 4th 05, 12:23 AM
Somebody
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Posts: n/a
Default


"fbloogyudsr" > wrote in message
...
> "Somebody" > wrote
> > "fbloogyudsr" > wrote
> >> "Somebody" > wrote
> >> > Again, if your air dam is plowing it, snow doesn't touch the

underside
> > of
> >> > your car because it's flat.
> >>
> >> Two things you have neglected in your discussion.
> >> 1) If you try to go through a drift, the front wheels are likely to
> >> plane
> >> up on the more densely packed snow, then drop down the other side,
> >> which puts the car into a teeter-totter on the drift.
> >> 2) A car is often higher in the front, either due to weight/loading,
> >> or by weight shift (granted, small if you're a smart winter driver), or
> >> by the action of the air dam deflecting snow downward.

> >
> > 1) I mentioned in my previous post
> > 2) short of a huge weight in the back most cars aren't lower in the

back.
>
> Wrong. Most BMW's have pretty even weight distribution - figured with
> driver only. Add more passengers and the car is rear-heavy. Unless the
> car (7-series, wagons) has self-levelling suspension, it's down at the

back.
>
> > Some air dams form a wedge to push it downwards, (most bimmers) have a
> > wedge
> > to push snow upwards.

>
> Wrong. My 330xi will push it down. My '91 525i will push it down.
> A modern 5-series has a very rounded front-end when viewed from
> the side. Even if the lower edge is quite sharp (possibly M3/M5)
> with no fence (and they all have a flexible fence due to curb rash
> possibilities), physics tells us that the act of splitting the flow
> (of the snow over the edge) will result in upwards force on the dam.
> The *only* exception to this would be a perfect snowplow resting
> on the perfect plowed surface with no snow between the blade
> and surface. Never happen.


Well I guess my car is the bumblebee then, because I have no trouble plowing
snow.

-Russ.


  #60  
Old March 4th 05, 01:15 AM
Todd Zuercher
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Posts: n/a
Default

The Malt Hound wrote:
> "Big Bill" > wrote in message
> news >
>>On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 18:48:37 -0500, Max > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Big Bill wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 20:36:33 -0500, Max >
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Hakkapelittas are nuts. I had a set (Hakka 10's) once on a Saab
>>>>>900 and
>>>>>nothing, nothing could stop me in the snow. Not even studded. They
>>>>>were
>>>>>awesome traction.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Obviously, you've only driven in light snow.
>>>>Be reasonable. When the snow is over your bumper, tires are not
>>>>the
>>>>answer. You need more clearance.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Never had Hakkapelitas eh?

>>
>>What good do they do when the snow lifts those wonder tires enough
>>to
>>lose traction?
>>When the snow is high enough to lift the vehicle high enough that
>>the
>>tires don't any longer have enough weight on them to gain traction,
>>better tires are *NOT* the answer.

>
>
> Snow will not magically elevate your car. The stuff is generally
> pretty light, especially if light and drifted, and can be pushed aside
> as the car plows through it if you have the traction to do so.
>
> Sorry, but you are wrong. Good traction *is* the answer.
>
> -Fred W
>
>


It is possible to drive through very very deep snow with the right
vehicle. I've driven through snow that was 6ft. deep with my old Chevy
S-10 4wd. Traction how ever wasn't my main problem engine power to
maintain forward movement was. The only time I got stuck was when I
chose to high of a gear going over a 6 ft drift. The engine bogged down
and when I tried to downshift all forward motion stopped and it sank.
This little truck only weighed 3000 lbs and the bottem of it was shapped
like a sled. It had enough downward suspention travel to dangle the
front tires more than 16 inches below the lowest point of the chassy and
the rears would go even lower. It also had about 11 inches of ground
clearence on dry ground. Tires were pretty ordinary all-terrain truck
tires. Oh, and to the Jeep touting dude, that worthless little S-10
would (and did) run circles around my Jeep CJ7 in the snow. Serious off
roading, mud, rocks, ect the jeep was far superior.

 




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