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1988 Olds 88 3800V6 keeps blowing cam sensors, high HC, CO emissions



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 29th 04, 11:18 PM
Glen Cooper
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default 1988 Olds 88 3800V6 keeps blowing cam sensors, high HC, CO emissions

Hello gang. My mother has a 1988 model Olds Delta 88 with about 100,000
miles that is having a problem passing the emissions test for its yearly
state inspection. The car has the VIN#C 3800 engine. The test results we

(1) HC(PPM) Standard-152, (Current Reading-359 Fail High and Low RPM)
(2) CO% Standard-0.97, (Current Reading-9.87 Fail High and Low RPM)
(3) CO2% (Current Reading-8.3)
(4) NOx Passed Well at 80 PPM
(5) O2% is 0.4
(6) Dilution% Standard-Less Than 6, (Current Reading-18.2)
(7) Gas Cap Integrity Passed

After it failed she brought the car to me and I pulled the dipstick and
smelled strong gas in the oil and the computer had a hard code 41 (cam
sensor). I checked the following concerning the gas in the oil and code 41:

Fuel Filter
Fuel Pressure and Flow
Fuel Pressure Regulator Diaphram For Leaks
Vapor Canister (Couldn't Tell Much Though)
Injector Leak Down Test
Cleaned Throttle Body and Tested the IAC
Checked the DIS ( All Six Firing Blue)
Changed Oil and Filter Twice
Changed Cam Sensor and Felt Magnet
Added Fuel Injector Cleaner and Drove A Few Days With 93 Octane Gas

Other things replaced in the past 6 months:
Plugs, Plug Wires, Coil Pack, Fuel Filter.

The second test result which I just saw didn't change. The tech said she
might try replacing the O2 Sensor which I just did. She insisted, you know
how mothers can be LOL. The SES light was on again, hard code 41.

Concerning the Code 41 (Cam Sensor), I have replaced the Cam Sensor three
times in the last 6 to 8 months. The SES light will stay out for a week or
so and come right back on and stay on until I replace the sensor again, then
it will do the same thing, last a week or so, and go bad again.

Could the code 41 be causing the high emissions and gas in the oil?
Could the ECM be blowing the Cam Sensor? This makes number 4 now.

I appreciate the help. The man said he'd test it one more time for free. I
have to leave for a while to make a car key, a few hours. This is making me
pull my hair out.

Oh, BTW, there isn't any noticable change in performance with the SES light
on or off. I don't see any smoke at the tail pipe. It accelerates fine,
scratching bald spot.


Thanks again.
Ed


Ads
  #2  
Old December 30th 04, 01:28 AM
Shep
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Usually the code 41 is caused by the pole piece on the cam gear falling off
so the cam sensor doesn't any signal.
"Glen Cooper" > wrote in message
...
> Hello gang. My mother has a 1988 model Olds Delta 88 with about 100,000
> miles that is having a problem passing the emissions test for its yearly
> state inspection. The car has the VIN#C 3800 engine. The test results
> we
>
> (1) HC(PPM) Standard-152, (Current Reading-359 Fail High and Low RPM)
> (2) CO% Standard-0.97, (Current Reading-9.87 Fail High and Low RPM)
> (3) CO2% (Current Reading-8.3)
> (4) NOx Passed Well at 80 PPM
> (5) O2% is 0.4
> (6) Dilution% Standard-Less Than 6, (Current Reading-18.2)
> (7) Gas Cap Integrity Passed
>
> After it failed she brought the car to me and I pulled the dipstick and
> smelled strong gas in the oil and the computer had a hard code 41 (cam
> sensor). I checked the following concerning the gas in the oil and code
> 41:
>
> Fuel Filter
> Fuel Pressure and Flow
> Fuel Pressure Regulator Diaphram For Leaks
> Vapor Canister (Couldn't Tell Much Though)
> Injector Leak Down Test
> Cleaned Throttle Body and Tested the IAC
> Checked the DIS ( All Six Firing Blue)
> Changed Oil and Filter Twice
> Changed Cam Sensor and Felt Magnet
> Added Fuel Injector Cleaner and Drove A Few Days With 93 Octane Gas
>
> Other things replaced in the past 6 months:
> Plugs, Plug Wires, Coil Pack, Fuel Filter.
>
> The second test result which I just saw didn't change. The tech said she
> might try replacing the O2 Sensor which I just did. She insisted, you know
> how mothers can be LOL. The SES light was on again, hard code 41.
>
> Concerning the Code 41 (Cam Sensor), I have replaced the Cam Sensor three
> times in the last 6 to 8 months. The SES light will stay out for a week or
> so and come right back on and stay on until I replace the sensor again,
> then
> it will do the same thing, last a week or so, and go bad again.
>
> Could the code 41 be causing the high emissions and gas in the oil?
> Could the ECM be blowing the Cam Sensor? This makes number 4 now.
>
> I appreciate the help. The man said he'd test it one more time for free. I
> have to leave for a while to make a car key, a few hours. This is making
> me
> pull my hair out.
>
> Oh, BTW, there isn't any noticable change in performance with the SES
> light
> on or off. I don't see any smoke at the tail pipe. It accelerates fine,
> scratching bald spot.
>
>
> Thanks again.
> Ed
>
>



  #3  
Old December 30th 04, 03:46 AM
Glen Cooper
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Shep" > wrote in message
...
> Usually the code 41 is caused by the pole piece on the cam gear falling

off>
> so the cam sensor doesn't any signal.>
>



If I replace the sensor it will work for days or a week, (SES will go out).
If the pole fell off it would show up [right away ?] as a code 41 after
sensor replacement. It also starts fine hot or cold and accelerates even
with the hard code 41 set. HC and CO are high.

The code 41 is what gets me. Could this cause high emissions while not
effecting performance? I'm still pulling my hair out, going bald now!

Ed


> "Glen Cooper" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hello gang. My mother has a 1988 model Olds Delta 88 with about 100,000
> > miles that is having a problem passing the emissions test for its yearly
> > state inspection. The car has the VIN#C 3800 engine. The test results
> > we
> >
> > (1) HC(PPM) Standard-152, (Current Reading-359 Fail High and Low RPM)
> > (2) CO% Standard-0.97, (Current Reading-9.87 Fail High and Low RPM)
> > (3) CO2% (Current Reading-8.3)
> > (4) NOx Passed Well at 80 PPM
> > (5) O2% is 0.4
> > (6) Dilution% Standard-Less Than 6, (Current Reading-18.2)
> > (7) Gas Cap Integrity Passed
> >
> > After it failed she brought the car to me and I pulled the dipstick and
> > smelled strong gas in the oil and the computer had a hard code 41 (cam
> > sensor). I checked the following concerning the gas in the oil and code
> > 41:
> >
> > Fuel Filter
> > Fuel Pressure and Flow
> > Fuel Pressure Regulator Diaphram For Leaks
> > Vapor Canister (Couldn't Tell Much Though)
> > Injector Leak Down Test
> > Cleaned Throttle Body and Tested the IAC
> > Checked the DIS ( All Six Firing Blue)
> > Changed Oil and Filter Twice
> > Changed Cam Sensor and Felt Magnet
> > Added Fuel Injector Cleaner and Drove A Few Days With 93 Octane Gas
> >
> > Other things replaced in the past 6 months:
> > Plugs, Plug Wires, Coil Pack, Fuel Filter.
> >
> > The second test result which I just saw didn't change. The tech said she
> > might try replacing the O2 Sensor which I just did. She insisted, you

know
> > how mothers can be LOL. The SES light was on again, hard code 41.
> >
> > Concerning the Code 41 (Cam Sensor), I have replaced the Cam Sensor

three
> > times in the last 6 to 8 months. The SES light will stay out for a week

or
> > so and come right back on and stay on until I replace the sensor again,
> > then
> > it will do the same thing, last a week or so, and go bad again.
> >
> > Could the code 41 be causing the high emissions and gas in the oil?
> > Could the ECM be blowing the Cam Sensor? This makes number 4 now.
> >
> > I appreciate the help. The man said he'd test it one more time for free.

I
> > have to leave for a while to make a car key, a few hours. This is making
> > me
> > pull my hair out.
> >
> > Oh, BTW, there isn't any noticable change in performance with the SES
> > light
> > on or off. I don't see any smoke at the tail pipe. It accelerates fine,
> > scratching bald spot.
> >
> >
> > Thanks again.
> > Ed
> >
> >

>
>



  #4  
Old December 30th 04, 04:28 AM
aarcuda69062
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article >,
"Glen Cooper" > wrote:

> If I replace the sensor it will work for days or a week, (SES will go out).
> If the pole fell off it would show up [right away ?] as a code 41 after
> sensor replacement. It also starts fine hot or cold and accelerates even
> with the hard code 41 set. HC and CO are high.


At almost 10% CO, this thing should be setting a code 45 for rich
fuel mixture...

> The code 41 is what gets me. Could this cause high emissions while not
> effecting performance? I'm still pulling my hair out, going bald now!


Are you certain that it's actually setting a code 41?

What method is being used to retrieve trouble codes?

Has this thing been scanned?
What is the O2 sensor voltage
What are the fuel trim numbers (block learn and integrator)?
  #5  
Old December 30th 04, 05:22 AM
Glen Cooper
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"aarcuda69062" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Glen Cooper" > wrote:
>
> > If I replace the sensor it will work for days or a week, (SES will go

out).
> > If the pole fell off it would show up [right away ?] as a code 41 after
> > sensor replacement. It also starts fine hot or cold and accelerates

even
> > with the hard code 41 set. HC and CO are high.

>



> At almost 10% CO, this thing should be setting a code 45 for rich
> fuel mixture...
>


It should be but it isn't, (ECM?) No other code is ever set other than the
standard code 12 Key On Engine Off. The exhaust seems clean. I agree with
you 100%. This is why I'm going bald now! The oil doesn't smell like gas
now that I changed the oil and filter 2 times.


> > The code 41 is what gets me. Could this cause high emissions while not
> > effecting performance? I'm still pulling my hair out, going bald now!

>



> Are you certain that it's actually setting a code 41?
>
> What method is being used to retrieve trouble codes?
>


Standard paper clip. Someone stole my MT2599 years ago.


> Has this thing been scanned?>
>


If you count AutoZone! LOL


>What is the O2 sensor voltage>


I replaced it.


> What are the fuel trim numbers (block learn and integrator)?>


I'm sure block learn is high. I don't know the numbers though. I dont know
the intergrator.

Could the ECM Cam Sensor Driver be shorting out the Cam Sensor causing high
emissions or is that barking up the wrong tree?

Ed


  #6  
Old December 30th 04, 05:45 AM
Glen Cooper
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I'm sorry I should have said "Could the Cam Sensor be effected and blown by
the ECM" because a driver is only concerned with output devices where as the
sensor is an input device and "Could that cause high emissions?".

It has been a long day. It's my mothers car and she expects me to have
X-Ray vision. I haven't worked on cars except for me and people I know
since I quit Rowens' Chevron here in Houston about 12 years ago when my
tools were stolen to become a locksmith.

Ed

"Glen Cooper" > wrote in message
...
>
> "aarcuda69062" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > "Glen Cooper" > wrote:
> >
> > > If I replace the sensor it will work for days or a week, (SES will go

> out).
> > > If the pole fell off it would show up [right away ?] as a code 41

after
> > > sensor replacement. It also starts fine hot or cold and accelerates

> even
> > > with the hard code 41 set. HC and CO are high.

> >

>
>
> > At almost 10% CO, this thing should be setting a code 45 for rich
> > fuel mixture...
> >

>
> It should be but it isn't, (ECM?) No other code is ever set other than

the
> standard code 12 Key On Engine Off. The exhaust seems clean. I agree

with
> you 100%. This is why I'm going bald now! The oil doesn't smell like gas
> now that I changed the oil and filter 2 times.
>
>
> > > The code 41 is what gets me. Could this cause high emissions while

not
> > > effecting performance? I'm still pulling my hair out, going bald now!

> >

>
>
> > Are you certain that it's actually setting a code 41?
> >
> > What method is being used to retrieve trouble codes?
> >

>
> Standard paper clip. Someone stole my MT2599 years ago.
>
>
> > Has this thing been scanned?>
> >

>
> If you count AutoZone! LOL
>
>
> >What is the O2 sensor voltage>

>
> I replaced it.
>
>
> > What are the fuel trim numbers (block learn and integrator)?>

>
> I'm sure block learn is high. I don't know the numbers though. I dont

know
> the intergrator.
>
> Could the ECM Cam Sensor Driver be shorting out the Cam Sensor causing

high
> emissions or is that barking up the wrong tree?
>
> Ed
>
>



  #7  
Old December 30th 04, 06:16 AM
aarcuda69062
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article >,
"Glen Cooper" > wrote:

> > At almost 10% CO, this thing should be setting a code 45 for rich
> > fuel mixture...
> >

>
> It should be but it isn't, (ECM?)


Always a possibility, especially in that model year range.
(GM cranked out some really crappy ECMs in the late 80s)

> No other code is ever set other than the
> standard code 12 Key On Engine Off. The exhaust seems clean. I agree with
> you 100%. This is why I'm going bald now! The oil doesn't smell like gas
> now that I changed the oil and filter 2 times.
>
>
> > > The code 41 is what gets me. Could this cause high emissions while not
> > > effecting performance? I'm still pulling my hair out, going bald now!

> >

>
>
> > Are you certain that it's actually setting a code 41?
> >
> > What method is being used to retrieve trouble codes?
> >

>
> Standard paper clip. Someone stole my MT2599 years ago.
>
>
> > Has this thing been scanned?>
> >

>
> If you count AutoZone! LOL


Real actual serial data was what I'm after...

>
> >What is the O2 sensor voltage>

>
> I replaced it.


Not what I asked.
At minimum, you could back-probe a DVOM into the O2 wire,
couldn't you?

>
> > What are the fuel trim numbers (block learn and integrator)?>

>
> I'm sure block learn is high. I don't know the numbers though. I dont know
> the intergrator.


If one is going after an over fueling problem, the fuel trim
numbers are essential.

> Could the ECM Cam Sensor Driver be shorting out the Cam Sensor causing high
> emissions or is that barking up the wrong tree?


I kind of doubt it. When the cam sensor fails, the fuel system
reverts to batch fired instead of sequential fired. There
-might- be some loss in overall performance but the emissions
shouldn't go sky high.

Wish I would have brought my laptop home with me so I could pull
up a wiring diagrams in MOD on this thing. Tomorrow I will check
the diagrams, I'll mark this post as unread and reference back to
it if I come up with something.
  #8  
Old December 30th 04, 06:30 AM
Glen Cooper
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thank you very much. I reached for my old trusty Fluke 88 the other day
only to find the LCD display to be damaged beyond hope due to age after
swapping out the battery. The screen is worthless. Cost a fortune back in
the game. Same thing now is alot cheaper. Going to Sears in a day or two.
I might call Ben. He was my old Snap-On man.

Ed


"aarcuda69062" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Glen Cooper" > wrote:
>
> > > At almost 10% CO, this thing should be setting a code 45 for rich
> > > fuel mixture...
> > >

> >
> > It should be but it isn't, (ECM?)

>
> Always a possibility, especially in that model year range.
> (GM cranked out some really crappy ECMs in the late 80s)
>
> > No other code is ever set other than the
> > standard code 12 Key On Engine Off. The exhaust seems clean. I agree

with
> > you 100%. This is why I'm going bald now! The oil doesn't smell like

gas
> > now that I changed the oil and filter 2 times.
> >
> >
> > > > The code 41 is what gets me. Could this cause high emissions while

not
> > > > effecting performance? I'm still pulling my hair out, going bald

now!
> > >

> >
> >
> > > Are you certain that it's actually setting a code 41?
> > >
> > > What method is being used to retrieve trouble codes?
> > >

> >
> > Standard paper clip. Someone stole my MT2599 years ago.
> >
> >
> > > Has this thing been scanned?>
> > >

> >
> > If you count AutoZone! LOL

>
> Real actual serial data was what I'm after...
>
> >
> > >What is the O2 sensor voltage>

> >
> > I replaced it.

>
> Not what I asked.
> At minimum, you could back-probe a DVOM into the O2 wire,
> couldn't you?
>
> >
> > > What are the fuel trim numbers (block learn and integrator)?>

> >
> > I'm sure block learn is high. I don't know the numbers though. I dont

know
> > the intergrator.

>
> If one is going after an over fueling problem, the fuel trim
> numbers are essential.
>
> > Could the ECM Cam Sensor Driver be shorting out the Cam Sensor causing

high
> > emissions or is that barking up the wrong tree?

>
> I kind of doubt it. When the cam sensor fails, the fuel system
> reverts to batch fired instead of sequential fired. There
> -might- be some loss in overall performance but the emissions
> shouldn't go sky high.
>
> Wish I would have brought my laptop home with me so I could pull
> up a wiring diagrams in MOD on this thing. Tomorrow I will check
> the diagrams, I'll mark this post as unread and reference back to
> it if I come up with something.



  #9  
Old December 31st 04, 09:57 PM
Glen Cooper
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Updating info on the Code 41.

I think it might be a good idea to replace the timing chain, gears,
tensioner and magnet on this thing. The way I figure it is even though the
magnet is still on the pole at the cam gear, it might be weak. That and/or
the chain has alot of play causing the code to be set do to bad valve
timing. I think this could be causing the CO to be 10% and the HC to be 10
times higher than normal. The more I think about it there does seem to be a
tip-in hesitation during acceleration.

What do you guys think?
Ed


"Glen Cooper" > wrote in message
...
> Hello gang. My mother has a 1988 model Olds Delta 88 with about 100,000
> miles that is having a problem passing the emissions test for its yearly
> state inspection. The car has the VIN#C 3800 engine. The test results

we
>
> (1) HC(PPM) Standard-152, (Current Reading-359 Fail High and Low RPM)
> (2) CO% Standard-0.97, (Current Reading-9.87 Fail High and Low RPM)
> (3) CO2% (Current Reading-8.3)
> (4) NOx Passed Well at 80 PPM
> (5) O2% is 0.4
> (6) Dilution% Standard-Less Than 6, (Current Reading-18.2)
> (7) Gas Cap Integrity Passed
>
> After it failed she brought the car to me and I pulled the dipstick and
> smelled strong gas in the oil and the computer had a hard code 41 (cam
> sensor). I checked the following concerning the gas in the oil and code

41:
>
> Fuel Filter
> Fuel Pressure and Flow
> Fuel Pressure Regulator Diaphram For Leaks
> Vapor Canister (Couldn't Tell Much Though)
> Injector Leak Down Test
> Cleaned Throttle Body and Tested the IAC
> Checked the DIS ( All Six Firing Blue)
> Changed Oil and Filter Twice
> Changed Cam Sensor and Felt Magnet
> Added Fuel Injector Cleaner and Drove A Few Days With 93 Octane Gas
>
> Other things replaced in the past 6 months:
> Plugs, Plug Wires, Coil Pack, Fuel Filter.
>
> The second test result which I just saw didn't change. The tech said she
> might try replacing the O2 Sensor which I just did. She insisted, you know
> how mothers can be LOL. The SES light was on again, hard code 41.
>
> Concerning the Code 41 (Cam Sensor), I have replaced the Cam Sensor three
> times in the last 6 to 8 months. The SES light will stay out for a week or
> so and come right back on and stay on until I replace the sensor again,

then
> it will do the same thing, last a week or so, and go bad again.
>
> Could the code 41 be causing the high emissions and gas in the oil?
> Could the ECM be blowing the Cam Sensor? This makes number 4 now.
>
> I appreciate the help. The man said he'd test it one more time for free. I
> have to leave for a while to make a car key, a few hours. This is making

me
> pull my hair out.
>
> Oh, BTW, there isn't any noticable change in performance with the SES

light
> on or off. I don't see any smoke at the tail pipe. It accelerates fine,
> scratching bald spot.
>
>
> Thanks again.
> Ed
>
>



  #10  
Old January 5th 05, 05:18 AM
Glen Cooper
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Update. It was that woolybuger O2 sensor causing the high emissions..
Sometimes I get too involved. Thanks everyone.

Ed

"Glen Cooper" > wrote in message
...
> Updating info on the Code 41.
>
> I think it might be a good idea to replace the timing chain, gears,
> tensioner and magnet on this thing. The way I figure it is even though

the
> magnet is still on the pole at the cam gear, it might be weak. That

and/or
> the chain has alot of play causing the code to be set do to bad valve
> timing. I think this could be causing the CO to be 10% and the HC to be

10
> times higher than normal. The more I think about it there does seem to be

a
> tip-in hesitation during acceleration.
>
> What do you guys think?
> Ed
>
>
> "Glen Cooper" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hello gang. My mother has a 1988 model Olds Delta 88 with about 100,000
> > miles that is having a problem passing the emissions test for its yearly
> > state inspection. The car has the VIN#C 3800 engine. The test results

> we
> >
> > (1) HC(PPM) Standard-152, (Current Reading-359 Fail High and Low RPM)
> > (2) CO% Standard-0.97, (Current Reading-9.87 Fail High and Low RPM)
> > (3) CO2% (Current Reading-8.3)
> > (4) NOx Passed Well at 80 PPM
> > (5) O2% is 0.4
> > (6) Dilution% Standard-Less Than 6, (Current Reading-18.2)
> > (7) Gas Cap Integrity Passed
> >
> > After it failed she brought the car to me and I pulled the dipstick and
> > smelled strong gas in the oil and the computer had a hard code 41 (cam
> > sensor). I checked the following concerning the gas in the oil and code

> 41:
> >
> > Fuel Filter
> > Fuel Pressure and Flow
> > Fuel Pressure Regulator Diaphram For Leaks
> > Vapor Canister (Couldn't Tell Much Though)
> > Injector Leak Down Test
> > Cleaned Throttle Body and Tested the IAC
> > Checked the DIS ( All Six Firing Blue)
> > Changed Oil and Filter Twice
> > Changed Cam Sensor and Felt Magnet
> > Added Fuel Injector Cleaner and Drove A Few Days With 93 Octane Gas
> >
> > Other things replaced in the past 6 months:
> > Plugs, Plug Wires, Coil Pack, Fuel Filter.
> >
> > The second test result which I just saw didn't change. The tech said she
> > might try replacing the O2 Sensor which I just did. She insisted, you

know
> > how mothers can be LOL. The SES light was on again, hard code 41.
> >
> > Concerning the Code 41 (Cam Sensor), I have replaced the Cam Sensor

three
> > times in the last 6 to 8 months. The SES light will stay out for a week

or
> > so and come right back on and stay on until I replace the sensor again,

> then
> > it will do the same thing, last a week or so, and go bad again.
> >
> > Could the code 41 be causing the high emissions and gas in the oil?
> > Could the ECM be blowing the Cam Sensor? This makes number 4 now.
> >
> > I appreciate the help. The man said he'd test it one more time for free.

I
> > have to leave for a while to make a car key, a few hours. This is making

> me
> > pull my hair out.
> >
> > Oh, BTW, there isn't any noticable change in performance with the SES

> light
> > on or off. I don't see any smoke at the tail pipe. It accelerates fine,
> > scratching bald spot.
> >
> >
> > Thanks again.
> > Ed
> >
> >

>
>



 




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