(Recommendations) Ones I found useful: Consumer Rights Trouble, 2005 car reviews & Car Safety Seats Guide. [w12332]

>Consumer Rights Trouble:
http://linktool.uni.cc/?u=aHR0cDovL3...dhbC9jb25 zdW
1lcl9sYXcvY2FyX2J1eWluZ19pbmRleC5odG1s&a=Y2Fy

>"75% of people surveyed would rather go
> to the dentist than a car dealership"

Ha. Good one. Gotta say that's pretty much how I feel. When I next need a
new car (in the next one to six years, I figure), I am going to do my best
to do it all by email, with a little help from the latest feature USAA's (=
my insurer's) car buying service offers. Car salesmen don't like dealing
with a woman buying economy and I sure as heck loathe dealing with these
mostly misogynist idiots.

"Elle" > wrote in
ink.net:

> "TeGGeR®" > wrote
> E wrote
>> > Ha. Good one. Gotta say that's pretty much how I feel. When I next
>> > need a new car (in the next one to six years, I figure), I am going
>> > to do my best to do it all by email, with a little help from the
>> > latest feature USAA's (= my insurer's) car buying service offers.
>> > Car salesmen don't like dealing with a woman buying economy and I
>> > sure as heck loathe dealing with these mostly misogynist idiots.
>>
>>
>> Why are they "mysogynist"? I am curious as to your evidence.
>
> I have read two articles about guys in the business. I worked in the
> business. I took some classes with boys in the business. Reports are
> that males salesmen do take advantage (financially speaking, and so to
> speak) of women with more success than they take advantage of men.


"Reports are..."? You mean those articles the newspapers occasionally print
where they send a male and a female shopper into a delaership one after the
other and report their reception?

It's been my experience, many times now, that car salesmen AND saleswomen
are ALL sharks. Women shoppers tend to be an easy mark because they are
less likely to resist pressure, EVEN from saleswomen. The saleswomen are
after your money exactly as the men. No different. It's the money, not you.

Most women are also not used to high-pressure situations of the sort found
in car deals, and do not have the mental makeup to *want* to deal with that
pressure. And then there's the female tendency to want to avoid
confrontation and want to get other people to like them, which makes them
more likely to agree to something just to get a sticky issue past. My wife
was very happy to let me do the searching and negotiating when we were
replacing her MR2.

Women tend as a class to be far, far less knowledgeable about cars than
men, so they are easier to hoodwink. Many men know a *little* about cars,
but most women know ZERO. Just because you are an exception does not mean
most other women are like you. They are most assuredly NOT. Most women have
absolutely ZERO interest in cars.


> I
> have studied with men in engineering.


I've been around engineers most of my life.



> I have witnessed the porn
> hanging in car dealerships, and the vulgar talk about women. They are
> mostly misogynist, like I said.


You don't know much about guys, it sounds. Porn and vulgar talk may be
distasteful to many women, but neither even remotely suggests "misogyny".
They are part-and-parcel of male life in varying degrees, and has nothing
to do with any respect we feel and exhibit for the women in our lives. The
lower the socioeconomic class, the more prevalent explicitly vulgar
behavior is evident.

This is one reason men had male-only clubs. Before the feminists started
meddling.


>
> I received an incredibly crude, vulgar email from someone in this
> group whom you evidently adore, because I asked technical questions
> and he couldn't answer them all. So this was his response.



Now that's hardly fair. First off, you're making an allegation without
proof or names, and secondarily somehow insinuating that I bear some sort
of responsibility in the matter.

I am not responsible for email somebody else sends you. What if I've never
seen this side of whoever it is you're talking about?



>
> There are exceptions, but I would have been better off in my lifetime
> knowing this tendency in advance.
>


Life is a harsh teacher and hindsight is 20-20. I can (and will) say the
same about other matters that have hurt me deeply as well.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Elle wrote:
> "jim beam" > wrote
>
>>Elle wrote:
>>
>>>>Consumer Rights Trouble:
>>>
>>>
> http://linktool.uni.cc/?u=aHR0cDovL3...dhbC9jb25 zdW
>
>>>1lcl9sYXcvY2FyX2J1eWluZ19pbmRleC5odG1s&a=Y2Fy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>"75% of people surveyed would rather go
>>>>to the dentist than a car dealership"
>>>
>>>
>>>Ha. Good one. Gotta say that's pretty much how I feel. When I next need
>
> a
>
>>>new car (in the next one to six years, I figure), I am going to do my
>
> best
>
>>>to do it all by email, with a little help from the latest feature USAA's
>
> (=
>
>>>my insurer's) car buying service offers. Car salesmen don't like dealing
>>>with a woman buying economy and I sure as heck loathe dealing with these
>>>mostly misogynist idiots.
>>>
>>
>>do they hate chicks? or do they hate chicks that have done their
>
> homework?
>
> I think in the final analysis for many men any "challenge" from a female is
> a challenge to their manhood. Of course, "challenge" can take the form of
> simply not automatically deferring to him on everything. In other words, the
> man expects subservience. Anything less makes him feel less. This reality
> indicates an underlying disdain for women, regardless of the women's brains.

with the greatest of respect, there are two scenarios here, not just the
one you describe. the first you've said, and in that respect, hey, give
them what they deserve. the second is that the person on the other end
of this transaction is picking up on something /you/ are bringing to the
table & reacting accordingly. based on our past conversations, i give
that a more than 50% liklihood of that being the case. unfortunately,
if that reaction is received through a "men are mysoginists" filter,
there's going to be a negative feedback loop making the problem worse,
not better. and the situation can quickly get out of control leaving
you with a lot of bad feelings. here's not the place to get into the
head shrinking thing, but as a guy that likes and respects your
engineering mind, i think this is worth looking into. staying where you
are can hold your career back. looking into it can help you move on and
achieve a lot more success an many areas of your life, not just work.

>
> It's about power, both on the political level and the personal level. With
> exceptions, of course. Also, there certainly are women who will use their
> feminine wiles to turn the tables: Sex (or sexuality or sex appeal or
> similar) can be used as a mighty cudgel. I'm sure you've seen women pull
> this. It's their right and natural to find a way to attain power, just as
> it's men's "right" and natural to find ways to hold the power as often as
> possible.
>
>
>>why not find yourself a chick sales person. that's what my girlfriend
>>did. got herself a good deal too.
>
>
> Yes, I am open to that possibility. I figure my chances are better with a
> female salesperson, though of course it's a cutthroat business, and surely
> they will all go the way of, say, female real estate saleswomen. But at
> least hearing, say, the F-word from a woman tends to be less likely than
> with a man, where it's such an accepted part of male vocabulary that I'm
> sure some here are baffled. No big deal. Yada.
>
> On the nth hand, women do tend to be less aggressive than men, whereas I'm
> probably more aggressive in getting what I want, so maybe I'd do well
> against a female salesperson.
>
> Nah. I like the anonymity of negotiating via the internet. Got a great deal
> on a condo I sold several years ago, doing almost every word of the
> negotiations via email.
>
> I will say that this newsgroup is pretty darn gender-neutral (occasional
> RTFM type-language aside, though if used discreetly can be quite a hoot)
> when it comes to helping people with their car woes, and that is rewarding.
>
> Peace. Love. More anti-seize; better synthetic oil; thank god the problems
> 90s Hondas have are heavily limited to the distributor; main relay; a few
> minor valves.
>
>

"TeGGeR®" > wrote
E wrote
> > "TeGGeR®" > wrote
> > E wrote
> >> > Ha. Good one. Gotta say that's pretty much how I feel. When I next
> >> > need a new car (in the next one to six years, I figure), I am going
> >> > to do my best to do it all by email, with a little help from the
> >> > latest feature USAA's (= my insurer's) car buying service offers.
> >> > Car salesmen don't like dealing with a woman buying economy and I
> >> > sure as heck loathe dealing with these mostly misogynist idiots.
> >>
> >>
> >> Why are they "mysogynist"? I am curious as to your evidence.
> >
> > I have read two articles about guys in the business. I worked in the
> > business. I took some classes with boys in the business. Reports are
> > that males salesmen do take advantage (financially speaking, and so to
> > speak) of women with more success than they take advantage of men.
>
>
> "Reports are..."? You mean those articles the newspapers occasionally
print
> where they send a male and a female shopper into a delaership one after
the
> other and report their reception?

I had in mind a specific report, covering a large data sample, showing women
pay X amount more than men, and it was not a small amount.

> It's been my experience, many times now, that car salesmen AND saleswomen
> are ALL sharks. Women shoppers tend to be an easy mark because they are
> less likely to resist pressure, EVEN from saleswomen. The saleswomen are
> after your money exactly as the men. No different. It's the money, not
you.

I understand your point, but my sense is that the salesmen treat women
worse, and still get more money. Go to another dealership, it's the same
thing. A woman is stuck. She has to be much more aggressive than a men.

> Most women are also not used to high-pressure situations of the sort found
> in car deals, and do not have the mental makeup to *want* to deal with
that
> pressure. And then there's the female tendency to want to avoid
> confrontation and want to get other people to like them, which makes them
> more likely to agree to something just to get a sticky issue past.

I think this is true, but see above.

> My wife
> was very happy to let me do the searching and negotiating when we were
> replacing her MR2.
>
> Women tend as a class to be far, far less knowledgeable about cars than
> men, so they are easier to hoodwink. Many men know a *little* about cars,
> but most women know ZERO. Just because you are an exception does not mean
> most other women are like you. They are most assuredly NOT. Most women
have
> absolutely ZERO interest in cars.

Also true.

> > I
> > have studied with men in engineering.
>
>
> I've been around engineers most of my life.
>
>
>
> > I have witnessed the porn
> > hanging in car dealerships, and the vulgar talk about women. They are
> > mostly misogynist, like I said.
>
>
> You don't know much about guys, it sounds. Porn and vulgar talk may be
> distasteful to many women, but neither even remotely suggests "misogyny".

You don't know much about men.

> They are part-and-parcel of male life in varying degrees, and has nothing
> to do with any respect we feel and exhibit for the women in our lives. The
> lower the socioeconomic class, the more prevalent explicitly vulgar
> behavior is evident.

Oh yes it does.

> This is one reason men had male-only clubs. Before the feminists started
> meddling.

Oh now I get it.

> > I received an incredibly crude, vulgar email from someone in this
> > group whom you evidently adore, because I asked technical questions
> > and he couldn't answer them all. So this was his response.
>
>
>
> Now that's hardly fair.

The truth is ALWAYS fair, idiot.

> First off, you're making an allegation without
> proof or names, and secondarily somehow insinuating that I bear some sort
> of responsibility in the matter.

I am not requiring you to believe me.

If you want a name, email me.

I did not save the message.

As for your part, you'll probably defend the guy. After all, all he sent me
was a little crude vulgar porn that belittled women, and you feel this is
perfectly right.

In fact, the law says that under slightly different circumstances, it's
quite illegal.

> I am not responsible for email somebody else sends you. What if I've never
> seen this side of whoever it is you're talking about?
>
>
>
> >
> > There are exceptions, but I would have been better off in my lifetime
> > knowing this tendency in advance.
> >
>
>
> Life is a harsh teacher and hindsight is 20-20. I can (and will) say the
> same about other matters that have hurt me deeply as well.

Nice try, but in fact the law says that porn in the workplace; raping one's
wife; assaulting a cadet in front of other cadets at the federal service
academies is illegal.

I have your number, though, Tegger. Like many political issues, it's all
about your problems. Others have not been hurt.

"jim beam" > wrote in message
...
> Elle wrote:
> > "jim beam" > wrote
> >
> >>Elle wrote:
> >>
> >>>>Consumer Rights Trouble:
> >>>
> >>>
> >
http://linktool.uni.cc/?u=aHR0cDovL3...dhbC9jb25 zdW
> >
> >>>1lcl9sYXcvY2FyX2J1eWluZ19pbmRleC5odG1s&a=Y2Fy
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>"75% of people surveyed would rather go
> >>>>to the dentist than a car dealership"
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Ha. Good one. Gotta say that's pretty much how I feel. When I next need
> >
> > a
> >
> >>>new car (in the next one to six years, I figure), I am going to do my
> >
> > best
> >
> >>>to do it all by email, with a little help from the latest feature
USAA's
> >
> > (=
> >
> >>>my insurer's) car buying service offers. Car salesmen don't like
dealing
> >>>with a woman buying economy and I sure as heck loathe dealing with
these
> >>>mostly misogynist idiots.
> >>>
> >>
> >>do they hate chicks? or do they hate chicks that have done their
> >
> > homework?
> >
> > I think in the final analysis for many men any "challenge" from a female
is
> > a challenge to their manhood. Of course, "challenge" can take the form
of
> > simply not automatically deferring to him on everything. In other words,
the
> > man expects subservience. Anything less makes him feel less. This
reality
> > indicates an underlying disdain for women, regardless of the women's
brains.
>
> with the greatest of respect, there are two scenarios here, not just the
> one you describe. the first you've said, and in that respect, hey, give
> them what they deserve. the second is that the person on the other end
> of this transaction is picking up on something /you/ are bringing to the
> table & reacting accordingly. based on our past conversations, i give
> that a more than 50% liklihood of that being the case. unfortunately,
> if that reaction is received through a "men are mysoginists" filter,

This is at least the SECOND time my position has been misquoted. I did not
say "men are misogynists." That both Tegger and you chose to change my
wording this ways says a lot about you, who both happen to be men.

Go back. Read what I wrote.

> there's going to be a negative feedback loop making the problem worse,
> not better.

When dealerships talk as crudely about male sexuality as they do about
women, then you might have some ground on which to stand.

I have a very good friend who is a rather successful car salesman. They
UNDOUBTEDLY have different expectations when dealing with a lone woman (or
group of women). I don't think it's malicious, just part of the job. Like
a lion looking at a herd of gazelles and going for the one most likely to be
dinner. Ahem, he would say the same goes for the people that look like they
"just fell off the turnip truck" as he put it. So yeah, I guess this guy
pretty much fits the bill. I think you gotta be an ass to make more money
than your coworkers in this business.

Elle wrote:
> "jim beam" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Elle wrote:
>>
>>>"jim beam" > wrote
>>>
>>>
>>>>Elle wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>Consumer Rights Trouble:
>>>>>
>>>>>
> http://linktool.uni.cc/?u=aHR0cDovL3...dhbC9jb25 zdW
>
>>>>>1lcl9sYXcvY2FyX2J1eWluZ19pbmRleC5odG1s&a=Y2 Fy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"75% of people surveyed would rather go
>>>>>>to the dentist than a car dealership"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Ha. Good one. Gotta say that's pretty much how I feel. When I next need
>>>
>>>a
>>>
>>>
>>>>>new car (in the next one to six years, I figure), I am going to do my
>>>
>>>best
>>>
>>>
>>>>>to do it all by email, with a little help from the latest feature
>
> USAA's
>
>>>(=
>>>
>>>
>>>>>my insurer's) car buying service offers. Car salesmen don't like
>
> dealing
>
>>>>>with a woman buying economy and I sure as heck loathe dealing with
>
> these
>
>>>>>mostly misogynist idiots.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>do they hate chicks? or do they hate chicks that have done their
>>>
>>>homework?
>>>
>>>I think in the final analysis for many men any "challenge" from a female
>
> is
>
>>>a challenge to their manhood. Of course, "challenge" can take the form
>
> of
>
>>>simply not automatically deferring to him on everything. In other words,
>
> the
>
>>>man expects subservience. Anything less makes him feel less. This
>
> reality
>
>>>indicates an underlying disdain for women, regardless of the women's
>
> brains.
>
>>with the greatest of respect, there are two scenarios here, not just the
>>one you describe. the first you've said, and in that respect, hey, give
>>them what they deserve. the second is that the person on the other end
>>of this transaction is picking up on something /you/ are bringing to the
>>table & reacting accordingly. based on our past conversations, i give
>>that a more than 50% liklihood of that being the case. unfortunately,
>>if that reaction is received through a "men are mysoginists" filter,
>
>
> This is at least the SECOND time my position has been misquoted. I did not
> say "men are misogynists." That both Tegger and you chose to change my
> wording this ways says a lot about you, who both happen to be men.
>
> Go back. Read what I wrote.

i did.

" ...the man expects subservience. Anything less makes him feel less.
This reality indicates an underlying disdain for women, regardless of
the women's brains."

that's a pretty damning condemnation. bringing that mindset to /any/
form of negotiation is going to put you at a disadvantage, regardless of
situation.

>
>
>>there's going to be a negative feedback loop making the problem worse,
>>not better.
>
>
> When dealerships talk as crudely about male sexuality as they do about
> women, then you might have some ground on which to stand.

but elle, some women /are/ just as bad. depends on the situation.
maybe i hang out with the "wrong crowd", but let me assure you, i could
take you to some neighborhoods in san francisco where you'd get worse
from the chicks than the dudes. trust me on that one. my ex used to
"bat for both teams" and some of the lezzies used to give me a real hard
time for playing on what they considered to be "their" turf. but hey, i
know how to compete.

"Elle" > wrote in
. net:



>
> As for your part, you'll probably defend the guy. After all, all he
> sent me was a little crude vulgar porn that belittled women, and you
> feel this is perfectly right.


Your shoulder chip must be getting bigger.

I have no idea who this guy is, and I have no idea what kind of thing he
sent you. Yet you are making a personal attack on me, claiming that I
support something I have no knowledge of.


>
> Nice try, but in fact the law says that porn in the workplace; raping
> one's wife; assaulting a cadet in front of other cadets at the federal
> service academies is illegal.


Rape? Assault? Are you saying I support these things? Where'd all that come
from?


>
> I have your number, though, Tegger. Like many political issues, it's
> all about your problems. Others have not been hurt.



I'm sorry you're so bitter. Get well soon.



--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

jim beam > wrote in
:


>>
> do they hate chicks? or do they hate chicks that have done their
> homework?



They hate PEOPLE that have done their homework. I wish you could have sat
in on some of the deals I've been in. Last one was our Tercel almost 2
years ago. The salesman (Toyota dealership) promised me I could buy it for
$11,000Cdn, on-the-road. After all the foo-fa-raw and talk, I finally get
him to put a number down on paper. He hems and haws, pokes random keys on
his calculator, makes a few frowny faces, and comes in at $12,800.

It took me an hour to get him down to...$11,000. I'll spare you the
details, but there was a lot of talk, and several visits from his manager.

Some time before that I had walked out on a deal for a Corolla at another
Toyota dealership, because they wouldn't include the price of a water pump
($250) within the purchase price. I talked them into doing the timing belt
for free, and a few other things, but they balked at the pump itself. The
next day I got an urgent message from the salesman. Never called him back.
By then I didn't want the car.

Buying a big-ticket item with a flexible price is not for the meek, and
griping about "misogyny" is not ever going to change that.

Nobody's ever got a dime out of me I didn't want to spend. Well, except the
Mazda RX-4 I bought in 1985. I paid too much for that from the private
seller. It was the first one I had come across after looking for some time,
and I wanted it more than I wanted the money.


>
> why not find yourself a chick sales person. that's what my girlfriend
> did. got herself a good deal too.
>
>

Problem is, some of those salesladies are as fish-eyed as the men. I've run
into those. The problem is, the saleswoman has an easier time fleecing a
female customer because she's more willing to trust another woman.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

TeGGeR® wrote:
> jim beam > wrote in
> :
>
>
>
>>do they hate chicks? or do they hate chicks that have done their
>>homework?
>
>
>
>
> They hate PEOPLE that have done their homework. I wish you could have sat
> in on some of the deals I've been in.

i do this stuff for a living. not cars, but big ticket. all day long...

> Last one was our Tercel almost 2
> years ago. The salesman (Toyota dealership) promised me I could buy it for
> $11,000Cdn, on-the-road. After all the foo-fa-raw and talk, I finally get
> him to put a number down on paper. He hems and haws, pokes random keys on
> his calculator, makes a few frowny faces, and comes in at $12,800.
>
> It took me an hour to get him down to...$11,000. I'll spare you the
> details, but there was a lot of talk, and several visits from his manager.

they were stupid. good sales people can figure out their customer in a
matter of seconds. if they were smart, they'd have figured you out much
earlier, made the deal & moved on rather than waste effort. time kills
deals.

you did well. my best basic method is to do all my test drives locally
with an iron rule about not buying. then call around & do all my
research & negotiation on the phone, with my wants list. "this is what
i want. i'm shopping on price. how low will you go." buy out of state
if necessary. the phone bit is essential because the sales droid is not
able to leverage your inertia for having driven to see them and is not
able to read your body language. you have an advantage because can hang
up pretty easily too, and the smart ones know that.

i found that within 1 hour of san francisco, all the honda dealers have
the same price [how strange!] 2 hours out however, particularly in the
lower income demographics, it's a whole different game. i just kept
calling further & further out with each successively lower price until i
reached bottom, then drove out to pick it up the same day. even then,
the sales droid tried his luck with "there must be some mistake on that
price". manager. whole charade. started to leave... and i would have
done too. but i got my price. the manager, when he learned where i
lived and that there was /no/ possibility of me being a service
customer, was none too friendly, but hey, that was his problem because i
had my papers & my key.

to expand on that theme, a friend of mine had a specific car purchase in
mind and called around. a local dealer had exactly what he wanted, but
was giving the run-around. ended getting the same car, /exact/ same
car, [same vin number!!!] from another dealer further out of town, for
$3k less - inter-dealer transfer! the phone is the best negotiation
tool ever invented.

>
> Some time before that I had walked out on a deal for a Corolla at another
> Toyota dealership, because they wouldn't include the price of a water pump
> ($250) within the purchase price. I talked them into doing the timing belt
> for free, and a few other things, but they balked at the pump itself. The
> next day I got an urgent message from the salesman. Never called him back.
> By then I didn't want the car.
>
> Buying a big-ticket item with a flexible price is not for the meek, and
> griping about "misogyny" is not ever going to change that.
>
> Nobody's ever got a dime out of me I didn't want to spend. Well, except the
> Mazda RX-4 I bought in 1985. I paid too much for that from the private
> seller. It was the first one I had come across after looking for some time,
> and I wanted it more than I wanted the money.
>
>
>
>>why not find yourself a chick sales person. that's what my girlfriend
>>did. got herself a good deal too.
>>
>>
>
>
> Problem is, some of those salesladies are as fish-eyed as the men. I've run
> into those. The problem is, the saleswoman has an easier time fleecing a
> female customer because she's more willing to trust another woman.
>
so true! but that's not our problem, is it?