Whitewall history question

Medievalbk wrote:
>
> Were they standard with a new car purchase?

No. They were optional equipment on most makes of autos in the U.S.

> Ford, or what would be a common purchase for New Orleans?

Ford was about the cheapest car available, hence they were very popular.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

On 07 Dec 2004 11:21:18 GMT, (Medievalbk) wrote:

>I tried to Google on the history of white wall tires for the early 1930s and I
>couldn't get past the general advertisements and classic car pictures.
>Questions:
>Were they standard with a new car purchase?
>Ford, or what would be a common purchase for New Orleans?
>And a very specific question:
>Would it be safe for a BLACK man to drive with whitewalls in 1930s New Orleans?
>I'm trying to do research for a short story.

Interesting questions. After quite a bit of searching I found the
following bits of information which I've extracted from their
respective webpages. I've put my comments in brackets.


http://www.libraries.wright.edu/spec...ts/ms-199.html
The DAYCO Corporation was founded on May 17, 1905 as the Dayton Rubber
Company by Col. John C. Hooven, a nationally known industrialist, of
Hamilton, Ohio to manufacture garden hose, fruit jar rings and other
products made of natural rubber. In 1908, John A. Mac Millian, a young
inventor from Prince Edward Island, joined the company with a new
product, the airless tire, which he had patented. He served the
company as general manager, company president and in 1936 retired as
the Chairman of the Board of the company. The airless tire proved to
be a sales success and was responsible for much of the company's early
growth and prosperity. In 1913, the Dayton Rubber Company introduced
for sale the first whitewall tires.

[So, whitewalls had been available for nearly 20 years before your
story takes place.]

- - -

After a considerable amount of searching for a hoped for definitive
answer, these are the two earliest mentions of whitewall tires being
standard equipment. I would assume some vehicle(s) preceded these two
but I couldn't find any.

http://www.allpar.com/history/plymouth/ragtops.html
The '39 convertible sedan... built by Plymouth... came standard
equipped with double sided whitewall tires

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/gener...0/article.html
the 1953 Eldorado... [Cadillac]... came with virtually everything
standard — including leather upholstery, radio, heater, windshield
washer, Hydramatic automatic transmission, power steering and
whitewall tires on real wire wheels.

- - -

[During my searches I found the following citation which seemed like
it'd be of interest and/or use.]
http://www.snopes.com/horrors/madmen/hairyarm.asp
.... 1956 book Negro Folktales in Michigan...

[Which led me to the following references for it.]

http://www.indiana.edu/~liblilly/gui...son/intro.html
GUIDE TO THE RICHARD DORSON PAPERS
IN THE LILLY LIBRARY
Lilly Library
Indiana University
Bloomington, Indiana
2002

http://www.museum.msu.edu/glff2003/P...eritageAwards/
Michigan Heritage Awards Ceremony
Richard M. Dorson [posthumous]
Folklife scholar and educator

Richard M. Dorson (1916-1981) was Distinguished Professor of History
and Folklore and Director of the Folklore Institute at Indiana
University. He was a remarkable and energetic scholar, who at the time
of his death, was the dominant force in the study of folklore.

http://www.marcusgarvey.com/wmview.php?ArtCat=15
Treasury of African Folktale

- - -
My additional comments -

I checked the website of "the world's largest supplier of antique,
vintage and classic tires to the collector car hobby",
http://www.coker.com/ , but cannot fully browse and search it now to
see if they may provide years of usage for whitewall tires.

I was also going to search for a list of vehicle original prices in
1933 as an arbitrary year of manufacture but cannot do that now
either. As the previous respondent stated, I too think Fords would be
more popular in that era due to their lower price and greater
availability. I think any man, not just a Negro, would have to be
rather well off financially to own a new car in that era so they'd
likely be driving something that was at least several years old at the
time of your story.

I do not recall ever hearing of any folklore or factual stories of
Black people being harmed or harassed for having whitewall tires but,
considering a country rife with racism, I wouldn't doubt that it may
have been possible. If it were factual, it'd be quite ironic
considering the popularity of Negro lawn jockey statuettes utilized by
well-to-do white folks but Blacks might be considered 'uppity' for
displaying whitewall tires on his car.

Good luck with your story. Please post some information regarding
where it can be found when it is finished.




--
Oh, smell your harmonica. Go on, smell it son." - Johnny 'Guitar' Watson

On 07 Dec 2004 11:21:18 GMT, (Medievalbk) wrote:

>I tried to Google on the history of white wall tires for the early 1930s and I
>couldn't get past the general advertisements and classic car pictures.
>Questions:
>Were they standard with a new car purchase?
>Ford, or what would be a common purchase for New Orleans?
>And a very specific question:
>Would it be safe for a BLACK man to drive with whitewalls in 1930s New Orleans?
>I'm trying to do research for a short story.
>Thanks.

Shortly after posting my previous reply I discovered the following
message posted to a similar newsgroup. I would suggest contacting this
company or representative who should have more insight into the
answers you seek.


From: "CokerTire" >
Newsgroups: alt.autos.antique, rec.autos.tech, rec.autos.driving,
alt.autos.cadillac
Subject: wide whitewall sought (FR721?) -- available anyplace?
Date: 7 Dec 2004 12:29:01 -0800


Hello everyone. Patrick Moates here from Coker Tire. We absolutely
have not ever cut a whitewall in to the side of any tire that we have
sold. Our whitewalls are true whitewall tires, meaning that the
whitewall is made in to the tire as it is being produced and not
ground in or added to an existing tire.

The tires in question are a Dimension IV branded tire built by
Yokohama in Birmingham, AL, and they do not have a whitewall cut in to
the side of the tire either. You can find them at this link -

http://www.coker.com/store/customer/...34&cat=&page=1

As far as we know, the FR721's were discontinued by Firestone in the
last couple of years. I spoke with a Firestone rep who said they
started making them again, but they were recently discontinued. We
offer the Dimension IV tires to fill that void in the market. If you
guys have any other questions, comments, or concerns please do not
hesitate to contact me at 1-800-251-6336 ext 254, or via e-mail to


Best Regards,

Patrick Moates
Coker Tire Co.



--
Oh, smell your harmonica. Go on, smell it son." - Johnny 'Guitar' Watson

Wow, heckuva response. I might add that in any era, hooligans can come
up with some excuse to harass someone they don't take a liking to, be it
haircut, skin color, car brand, whitewall tires, or whatever.

Steve H

Hoodoo wrote:
>
> On 07 Dec 2004 11:21:18 GMT, (Medievalbk) wrote:
>
> >I tried to Google on the history of white wall tires for the early 1930s and I
> >couldn't get past the general advertisements and classic car pictures.
> >Questions:
> >Were they standard with a new car purchase?
> >Ford, or what would be a common purchase for New Orleans?
> >And a very specific question:
> >Would it be safe for a BLACK man to drive with whitewalls in 1930s New Orleans?
> >I'm trying to do research for a short story.
>
> Interesting questions. After quite a bit of searching I found the
> following bits of information which I've extracted from their
> respective webpages. I've put my comments in brackets.
>
> http://www.libraries.wright.edu/spec...ts/ms-199.html
> The DAYCO Corporation was founded on May 17, 1905 as the Dayton Rubber
> Company by Col. John C. Hooven, a nationally known industrialist, of
> Hamilton, Ohio to manufacture garden hose, fruit jar rings and other
> products made of natural rubber. In 1908, John A. Mac Millian, a young
> inventor from Prince Edward Island, joined the company with a new
> product, the airless tire, which he had patented. He served the
> company as general manager, company president and in 1936 retired as
> the Chairman of the Board of the company. The airless tire proved to
> be a sales success and was responsible for much of the company's early
> growth and prosperity. In 1913, the Dayton Rubber Company introduced
> for sale the first whitewall tires.
>
> [So, whitewalls had been available for nearly 20 years before your
> story takes place.]
>
> - - -
>
> After a considerable amount of searching for a hoped for definitive
> answer, these are the two earliest mentions of whitewall tires being
> standard equipment. I would assume some vehicle(s) preceded these two
> but I couldn't find any.
>
> http://www.allpar.com/history/plymouth/ragtops.html
> The '39 convertible sedan... built by Plymouth... came standard
> equipped with double sided whitewall tires
>
> http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/gener...0/article.html
> the 1953 Eldorado... [Cadillac]... came with virtually everything
> standard — including leather upholstery, radio, heater, windshield
> washer, Hydramatic automatic transmission, power steering and
> whitewall tires on real wire wheels.
>
> - - -
>
> [During my searches I found the following citation which seemed like
> it'd be of interest and/or use.]
> http://www.snopes.com/horrors/madmen/hairyarm.asp
> ... 1956 book Negro Folktales in Michigan...
>
> [Which led me to the following references for it.]
>
> http://www.indiana.edu/~liblilly/gui...son/intro.html
> GUIDE TO THE RICHARD DORSON PAPERS
> IN THE LILLY LIBRARY
> Lilly Library
> Indiana University
> Bloomington, Indiana
> 2002
>
> http://www.museum.msu.edu/glff2003/P...eritageAwards/
> Michigan Heritage Awards Ceremony
> Richard M. Dorson [posthumous]
> Folklife scholar and educator
>
> Richard M. Dorson (1916-1981) was Distinguished Professor of History
> and Folklore and Director of the Folklore Institute at Indiana
> University. He was a remarkable and energetic scholar, who at the time
> of his death, was the dominant force in the study of folklore.
>
> http://www.marcusgarvey.com/wmview.php?ArtCat=15
> Treasury of African Folktale
>
> - - -
> My additional comments -
>
> I checked the website of "the world's largest supplier of antique,
> vintage and classic tires to the collector car hobby",
> http://www.coker.com/ , but cannot fully browse and search it now to
> see if they may provide years of usage for whitewall tires.
>
> I was also going to search for a list of vehicle original prices in
> 1933 as an arbitrary year of manufacture but cannot do that now
> either. As the previous respondent stated, I too think Fords would be
> more popular in that era due to their lower price and greater
> availability. I think any man, not just a Negro, would have to be
> rather well off financially to own a new car in that era so they'd
> likely be driving something that was at least several years old at the
> time of your story.
>
> I do not recall ever hearing of any folklore or factual stories of
> Black people being harmed or harassed for having whitewall tires but,
> considering a country rife with racism, I wouldn't doubt that it may
> have been possible. If it were factual, it'd be quite ironic
> considering the popularity of Negro lawn jockey statuettes utilized by
> well-to-do white folks but Blacks might be considered 'uppity' for
> displaying whitewall tires on his car.
>
> Good luck with your story. Please post some information regarding
> where it can be found when it is finished.
>
> --
> Oh, smell your harmonica. Go on, smell it son." - Johnny 'Guitar' Watson

Hoodoo wrote:
>
> After a considerable amount of searching for a hoped for definitive
> answer, these are the two earliest mentions of whitewall tires being
> standard equipment.

Whitewalls were still optional equipment for Fords when my father bought a new
Fairlane in 1963. As late as 1969, you could still buy a Ford cheaper if you
bought it with blackwall tires, but I'm don't know if whitewalls were still
optional or if you got a discount for blackwalls (sort of a reverse option).

> I was also going to search for a list of vehicle original prices in
> 1933 as an arbitrary year of manufacture but cannot do that now
> either.

Henry Ford had a policy of pricing his basic model at or below two years' wages
for the "common working man". A 1931 Ford roadster cost $475 and a 1935 Ford
cost $580. Sample car prices of the period -- A 1930 Graham-Paige model 837
would set you back $2,245. The '32 Chevrolet Landau Phaeton went for $640. An
Auburn roadster of that year was $1,295.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 14:03:16 GMT, snh9728
> wrote:

>Wow, heckuva response. I might add that in any era, hooligans can come
>up with some excuse to harass someone they don't take a liking to, be it
>haircut, skin color, car brand, whitewall tires, or whatever.

The questions asked and the hypothetical situation presented was of
considerable interest to me out of curiosity. I spent several hours
searching for answers but was eventually getting too tired to do any
more research.

I think the situation presented might have a bit more to do with the
severity of racism than a mere hooligan mindset. That was the basis of
my using the descriptive but derogatory (in context) word, "uppity".

I'm old enough to recall homes not far from my childhood one that had
a Negro lawn jockey statue on each side of their driveway. In the late
'50s and early '60s those didn't seem to be offensive but in this day
and age they are quite inappropriate, except as items of cultural
significance instead of yard ornaments, in my estimation.

I now live in a rural area and occasionally notice statuettes of Negro
boys and men holding fishing poles over decorative bridges or on the
banks of small creeks. I think the racial significance of these items
isn't as hard-hitting in areas of minimal population where the
residents have had little interaction with other races of people. I'm
aware that these statuettes are racially improper but I don't feel the
Caucasian people utilizing them know any better and are not displaying
them out of a racist mindset. I believe they are still living their
lives the way America happened to be forty-plus years ago.



--
Oh, smell your harmonica. Go on, smell it son." - Johnny 'Guitar' Watson

On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 21:14:28 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

>Whitewalls were still optional equipment for Fords when my father bought a new
>Fairlane in 1963.

Yes, I found several examples of cars of that era that mentioned
whitewalls as being either standard equipment or optional. That
doesn't seem too long ago to me but, in hindsight, 40 years is quite a
passage of time.

>As late as 1969, you could still buy a Ford cheaper if you
>bought it with blackwall tires, but I'm don't know if whitewalls were still
>optional or if you got a discount for blackwalls (sort of a reverse option).

I remember specifically purchasing blackwall tires about 30 years ago
because I didn't like the look of whitewalls on my first cars, plus,
they were several dollars cheaper which for a teenager meant
something. That was about the time that raised white lettered tires
became popular. I know I bought several of those tire crayons to
highlight the lettering on my tires because I couldn't spend the extra
money to buy the top of line tires that came with the raised white
letters.

>Henry Ford had a policy of pricing his basic model at or below two years' wages
>for the "common working man". A 1931 Ford roadster cost $475 and a 1935 Ford
>cost $580. Sample car prices of the period -- A 1930 Graham-Paige model 837
>would set you back $2,245. The '32 Chevrolet Landau Phaeton went for $640. An
>Auburn roadster of that year was $1,295.

Right, but the majority of American citizens worked in the mostly
agricultural economy of the time. A new car was valued at a lot more
than several years' worth of wages to typical folks. And, typically,
to Negroes who worked menial jobs that paid even less than white
people, just owning any car and being able to afford operational costs
would be a big deal for them. I think that is nearly a hereditary
component to the lives of a lot of black folks from the 1960's on who
spent more on their cars (pimpmobiles!) than a place to live because a
fancy car was a way to at least appear financially successful.



--
Oh, smell your harmonica. Go on, smell it son." - Johnny 'Guitar' Watson

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 21:34:26 -0600, Hoodoo > wrote:

>On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 14:03:16 GMT, snh9728
> wrote:
>

>
>I think the situation presented might have a bit more to do with the
>severity of racism than a mere hooligan mindset. That was the basis of
>my using the descriptive but derogatory (in context) word, "uppity".

I think having grown up in Mid Illinois cir: 1942-1960 the word uppity
says it all. For the author who started this thread that is a
question he or she needs to ask about the period in that part of La.
Which is I think the start... would white wall tires on a car driven
by a black person in New Orelens been uppity . ? I say yes.

Having served in the Army in La. .. fort Polk 1961-63 and spent a lot
of time in The Big Easy I know feelings still ran high. So to
speculate on how it was in the late '30's .. well there you go.

Steve E.


>
>I'm old enough to recall homes not far from my childhood one that had
>a Negro lawn jockey statue on each side of their driveway. In the late
>'50s and early '60s those didn't seem to be offensive but in this day
>and age they are quite inappropriate, except as items of cultural
>significance instead of yard ornaments, in my estimation.
>
>I now live in a rural area and occasionally notice statuettes of Negro
>boys and men holding fishing poles over decorative bridges or on the
>banks of small creeks. I think the racial significance of these items
>isn't as hard-hitting in areas of minimal population where the
>residents have had little interaction with other races of people. I'm
>aware that these statuettes are racially improper but I don't feel the
>Caucasian people utilizing them know any better and are not displaying
>them out of a racist mindset. I believe they are still living their
>lives the way America happened to be forty-plus years ago.

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 07:15:49 GMT, Steven E. Eyrse
> wrote:

>I think having grown up in Mid Illinois cir: 1942-1960 the word uppity
>says it all. For the author who started this thread that is a
>question he or she needs to ask about the period in that part of La.
>Which is I think the start... would white wall tires on a car driven
>by a black person in New Orelens been uppity . ? I say yes.

I think that was his point, or rather, what he wanted clarified. I
commend him for considering the factual possibility of the situation
he presented, and to put forth some effort in posting a public request
for opinions about, or leads to facts proving or disproving, it.

If I were reading a book and encountered a passage stating the
situation as presented in this thread, I believe I would distance
myself from the text just enough to consider in my mind whether it was
logical or factually possible. If I was compelled enough to go through
as much effort as I did in response to the theoretical question posed
here, which is highly probable, learning the answer or having to
search for one would add considerably to my appreciation of the book.
If I couldn't obtain a finite answer at the time, the uncertainty and
quest for proper closure would likely stay with me for a long time.

>Having served in the Army in La. .. fort Polk 1961-63 and spent a lot
>of time in The Big Easy I know feelings still ran high. So to
>speculate on how it was in the late '30's .. well there you go.

A good friend of mine was in the Air Force around that same time frame
and stationed at whatever base is in Louisiana.

From the years of 1985 to '95 I attended Mardi Gras eight of ten
times, staying for the whole week during six of those eight years.

Where the hell would this country be without The Crescent City to
enlighten the sensibilities, and expand the awareness, of so many of
us? ha!




--
Oh, smell your harmonica. Go on, smell it son." - Johnny 'Guitar' Watson