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Proactive Maintenance of a 98 Camry



 
 
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  #11  
Old June 26th 05, 05:31 AM
DTJ
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On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 05:54:07 GMT, Ajanta > wrote:

>Steve B. > wrote:
>
>: Replacing the water pump with the timing belt on these cars is
>: a very good idea as you have to remove it to get to the belt anyway
>: and when it fails in the future (not if) it can take out the brand new
>: belt. Gates web site shows your belt needing to be changed at 90k
>: miles.
>
>I think the cost benefit analysis is quite clear: If I don't change the
>water pump and it doesn't break while I own my car, I save $100
>approx; if it breaks, I lose at least $250 (one timing belt job, which
>may have to be repeated anyway), and maybe more if there is other
>serious damage.


Where are you getting those prices? An accord costs almost $1000 to
have the timing belt and water pump done. I would assume a Toyota is
similar.

However, I have had 3 Hondas with more than 130,000 miles, none of
which showed any indication of failure for going past the 90,000 mile
mark where it should have been replaced. I am almost convinced that
timing belt replacement is, as CH says, snake oil. Besides, the quote
to do the work before and after a failure is not that different.
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  #12  
Old June 26th 05, 05:49 AM
Kiran
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DTJ > wrote:

: Where are you getting those prices? An accord costs almost $1000 to
: have the timing belt and water pump done. I would assume a Toyota is
: similar.

I have no experience with Hondas, but 1000 seems too much for a Camry.
For timing belt alone I have seen *dealer* ads around 200 (granted
those are promotions).

: However, I have had 3 Hondas with more than 130,000 miles, none of
: which showed any indication of failure for going past the 90,000 mile
: mark where it should have been replaced. I am almost convinced that
: timing belt replacement is, as CH says, snake oil. Besides, the quote
: to do the work before and after a failure is not that different.

There are two arguments against this. First, even if not much more
expensive, it will be much more inconvenient if done in an emergency.
If it breaks on the road, you would miss whatever you were driving to,
and could also be far away from any Toyota dealer or even a decent
garage.

Second, I know that if they say 90,000 it is not going to break at
91,000. If I want to sell my car at 100,000 or even 110,000 I might
chance it. But what if I plan to keep it until 150,000 as OP said? Or
even longer. After a point, I won't have piece of mind. And if I change
it later, I'd be spending the money anyway.

BTW on my Camry I changed it at 120,000 but I did change it, because of
accululating anxiety. I drive alone, or with kids, during nights,
through less populated areas, etc. I could have changed it earlier for
much less anxiety and no more money.
  #13  
Old June 26th 05, 06:25 AM
Ray O
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> wrote in message
m...
>
> "Ray O" > wrote in message
> ervers.com...
>>
>> > wrote in message
>> m...
>> >
>> > "Ray O" > wrote in message
>> > ervers.com...
>> >>
>> >> "Steve B." > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> > On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 04:12:28 GMT, Ajanta > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>How should I approach the maintenance of this car? What should be
>> >> >>done and when?
>> >> >
>> >> > Look in your owners manual and follow the severe service maintenance
>> >> > schedule. If there are things you are behind on or don't know to

> have
>> >> > been completed then go ahead and catch them up.
>> >>
>> >> Great advice!
>> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Secondly, where should such work be done? I am so happy to be able
>> >> >>tp
>> >> >>plan that, instead of being limited by who is near and who is open
>> >> >>during a holiday weekend!
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Are big national chains like Sears, Pep Boys, WalMart etc any good?
>> >> >>CarX, Midas, Firestone? (Recommendations for places local to Chicago
>> >> >>are also welcome.)
>> >> >
>> >> > I avoid the above mentioned places at all costs. Some of them can
>> >> > be
>> >> > good but most are not and you never know which kind you are getting.
>> >> > Ask friends and co-workers for reccomendations on an independant
>> >> > shop
>> >> > that is reliable and in your area.
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> >> Also great advice!
>> >>
>> >> >>I stopped at a local garage in an area where I had to kill time

> today.
>> >> >>He suggested (1) changing belts (incl timing) and (2) getting a
>> >> >>tune-up, even if nothing seems wrong. Is that good advice?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>He was unsure about water pump: it would be $80 if done with timing
>> >> >>belt but a lot more if it had to be done on its own, but nothing is
>> >> >>wrong and it could possibly last.
>> >> >
>> >> > The fact that he was unsure about the water pump is a little

> troubling
>> >> > to me. Replacing the water pump with the timing belt on these cars

> is
>> >> > a very good idea as you have to remove it to get to the belt anyway
>> >> > and when it fails in the future (not if) it can take out the brand

> new
>> >> > belt. Gates web site shows your belt needing to be changed at 90k
>> >> > miles.
>> >> >
>> >> > When a timing belt breaks on your engine the valves can hit the
>> >> > pistons. When this happens either the valves or the piston

> breaks....
>> >> > either way it will cost you a small fortune so don't mess around
>> >> > with
>> >> > it. Check out
>> >> > http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?br...cation_id=3487
>> >> > for a pretty good explanation and a couple of illustrations that
>> >> > show
>> >> > what happens.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> On a Camry, the valves will not hit the pistons if the timing belt

> breaks
>> >> but the car will leave you stranded.
>> >>
>> >> I recommend changing the timing belt at 90,000 miles and if you can
>> >> afford
>> > a
>> >> little extra to change thw wter pump as a prevantative measure, then

> I'd
>> > do
>> >> it when the timing belt is changed because much of the work to change
>> >> a
>> >> water pump is removing the timing belt.
>> >>
>> >> Although changing a timing belt is not that difficult, Toyota dealers
>> >> have
>> >> it down to a science and often have sales on timing belt replacements.

> I
>> >> recommend that you have the timing belt changed by a dealer.
>> >
>> > The Gates book shows the V6 to be interference, I believe, while the L4

> is
>> > not, if I read it correctly.

>>
>> I stand corrected! By the way, a timing belt that is getting ready to

> fail
>> will start to make a slapping noise so they generally give warning before
>> they fail. If you change it every 90,000 miles, then no worries.
>> >
>> > I would pick my mechanical service carefully.

>>
>> I agree - see my earlier responses.
>>
>> Some dealerships are crappy,
>> > others may be pretty good. A blanket recommendation to take your car
>> > to

> a
>> > dealership garage is not the best advice,
>> > in my opinion.
>> >

>>
>> Dealerships must meet special service tool, training, equipment, and
>> facility requirements. They also receive a full set of factory service
>> manuals and new special service tools every year as well as receive every
>> technical service bulletin as soon as they are issued. Dealership
>> service
>> departments are rated by consumers and regularly receive customer
>> satisfaction scores.

>
> Some dealers are good, some are crap, as I said before.


This is true, however, of the 100 or so dealerships I've personally dealt
with, I'd say 70% were technically good, another 25% were excellent, and the
remaining 5% were poor. The proportions of good, excellent, and poor
technicians who worked at the dealerships is probably about the same. Your
chances of getting good service on your Toyota at a Toyota dealer are at
least as good and probably better than your chances of getting that same
level of technical competence at an independent shop.

>
>> I have no problem with most independents for simple work like oil
>> changes,
>> brakes, suspension, etc. but beyond that, their knowledge and experience
>> tends to be generic where Toyota technicians have more specific knowledge
>> and experience. My recommendation was not a blanket one to take the car

> to
>> a dealership; it was for a timing belt replacement.
>> --

>
> " I recommend that you have the timing belt changed by a dealer."
>
> You dont have to take it to a dealer. You want to take your car to a good
> and competent
> mechanic, wherever he may be. Dealers dont always provide this quality.
> They SHOULD,
> at the prices they charge, provide experts but unfortunately this just
> isnt
> always the case.
>

I agree that dealers don't always provide the quality of the service that
they should, especially for the prices they charge BUT, like I said, given
an unfamiliar dealer and an unfamiliar independent shop, IMO, the dealer is
a much better bet. If you know a competent independent who charges less
than a dealership, uses quality parts, and stands behind his work, then he
may be worth going to. Our local Toyota dealer charges less than $200 for
a timing belt replacement where the independent wants closer to $300 because
it takes him longer.

Like I said, it is worth pricing the work before getting it done.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply



  #14  
Old June 26th 05, 06:34 AM
Ray O
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"DTJ" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 05:54:07 GMT, Ajanta > wrote:
>
>>Steve B. > wrote:
>>
>>: Replacing the water pump with the timing belt on these cars is
>>: a very good idea as you have to remove it to get to the belt anyway
>>: and when it fails in the future (not if) it can take out the brand new
>>: belt. Gates web site shows your belt needing to be changed at 90k
>>: miles.
>>
>>I think the cost benefit analysis is quite clear: If I don't change the
>>water pump and it doesn't break while I own my car, I save $100
>>approx; if it breaks, I lose at least $250 (one timing belt job, which
>>may have to be repeated anyway), and maybe more if there is other
>>serious damage.

>
> Where are you getting those prices? An accord costs almost $1000 to
> have the timing belt and water pump done. I would assume a Toyota is
> similar.
>
> However, I have had 3 Hondas with more than 130,000 miles, none of
> which showed any indication of failure for going past the 90,000 mile
> mark where it should have been replaced. I am almost convinced that
> timing belt replacement is, as CH says, snake oil. Besides, the quote
> to do the work before and after a failure is not that different.


Here in the Chicago suburbs, the local dealer charges around $200 for a
timing belt on a Camry and at $100 to $150 additional for a water pump.
Having to pay $1000 for a timing belt would make me think seriously about
getting another model!

On an interference engine, if the timing belt fails, the pistons can hit the
valves, causing extensive damage. People often find this hard to believe,
but the folks who make the cars probably know more about the car and the
cost benefits of performing periodic maintenance than most owners. Whether
the cost to replace the timing belt is $200 for a Camry or $1,000 for the
Accord, it is cheaper to change the timing belt before it breaks than
letting it break and having to tow for an unscheduled repair or worse, tear
down the engine for major repairs.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply


  #15  
Old June 26th 05, 02:27 PM
S.S.
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DTJ wrote:

> Where are you getting those prices? An accord costs almost $1000 to
> have the timing belt and water pump done. I would assume a Toyota is
> similar.
>

It should not cost $1000 to change the t-belt and water pump on an Accord.
I have a '93 Accord, and it cost only $350 to get it done at a private
mechanic who specializes in Hondas.


> However, I have had 3 Hondas with more than 130,000 miles, none of
> which showed any indication of failure for going past the 90,000 mile
> mark where it should have been replaced. I am almost convinced that
> timing belt replacement is, as CH says, snake oil. Besides, the quote
> to do the work before and after a failure is not that different.


I have heard of many instances of the belt failing past the interval, but
very few within the interval.
  #16  
Old June 26th 05, 03:57 PM
external usenet poster
 
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"Ray O" > wrote in message
ervers.com...

> I agree that dealers don't always provide the quality of the service that
> they should, especially for the prices they charge BUT, like I said, given
> an unfamiliar dealer and an unfamiliar independent shop, IMO, the dealer

is
> a much better bet. If you know a competent independent who charges less
> than a dealership, uses quality parts, and stands behind his work, then he
> may be worth going to. Our local Toyota dealer charges less than $200

for
> a timing belt replacement where the independent wants closer to $300

because
> it takes him longer.
>
> Like I said, it is worth pricing the work before getting it done.


I do a lot of my own work, Ray, but not all of it anymore. It is worth
getting it priced
before you begin, but it is also important to find a mechanic/garage that
you can trust.
I research as carefully as I can before I take my car to anyone for special
work. I use
the experiences of friends, the AAA approved list, etc, and often talk to
the mechanic
or shop owner to see if he is fair and competent, or is just a 'goober'.

Lots of 'goobers' in the patch, and far too many of them own or work at
dealerships.
Going to a dealership is no guarantee of anything unless you know them and
their work
standards. Same for an independent.


  #17  
Old June 26th 05, 07:52 PM
Steve B.
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On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 23:31:29 -0500, DTJ > wrote:

>On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 05:54:07 GMT, Ajanta > wrote:
>
>>Steve B. > wrote:
>>
>>: Replacing the water pump with the timing belt on these cars is
>>: a very good idea as you have to remove it to get to the belt anyway
>>: and when it fails in the future (not if) it can take out the brand new
>>: belt. Gates web site shows your belt needing to be changed at 90k
>>: miles.
>>
>>I think the cost benefit analysis is quite clear: If I don't change the
>>water pump and it doesn't break while I own my car, I save $100
>>approx; if it breaks, I lose at least $250 (one timing belt job, which
>>may have to be repeated anyway), and maybe more if there is other
>>serious damage.

>
>Where are you getting those prices? An accord costs almost $1000 to
>have the timing belt and water pump done. I would assume a Toyota is
>similar.
>

$250 is probably a bit low but 1k is way way over the top. $500
would be the max I would expect to see at a dealer with them replacing
all the wear items near the timing belt..

>However, I have had 3 Hondas with more than 130,000 miles, none of
>which showed any indication of failure for going past the 90,000 mile
>mark where it should have been replaced. I am almost convinced that
>timing belt replacement is, as CH says, snake oil. Besides, the quote
>to do the work before and after a failure is not that different.


The quote to do more work after a failure can be quite different. On
an interference engine the valves can hit the pistons and one of the
two is going to loose. At best you end up having the head redone and
at worst you replace the engine. If your Honda is non interference
and you don't mind being left stranded then run the sucker till it
breaks... The OP on the other hand wanted to keep her car running and
not be left stranded so she should replace the belt at 90k as
reccomended by the people who designed and built the engine.

Steve B.

Some belts do last much longer and some don't. A friend of mine just
had his break on his VW 1400 miles past the reccomended replacement
time. Cost him a new head.
  #18  
Old June 26th 05, 08:39 PM
Learning Richard
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S.S. wrote:
> DTJ wrote:
>
> > Where are you getting those prices? An accord costs almost $1000 to
> > have the timing belt and water pump done. I would assume a Toyota is
> > similar.
> >

> It should not cost $1000 to change the t-belt and water pump on an Accord.
> I have a '93 Accord, and it cost only $350 to get it done at a private
> mechanic who specializes in Hondas.
>


ditto -- paid about 350 for a new tbelt and water pump from my great
indie mechanic. top notch work -- keeps my cars running great, this
guy does, and very reasonable prices. even lets me bring my own parts
in if I want.

Even though he races Ford Mustangs -- don't see many hondas and toyotas
.... or maybe he's so good _because_ he races Fords?

>
> > However, I have had 3 Hondas with more than 130,000 miles, none of
> > which showed any indication of failure for going past the 90,000 mile
> > mark where it should have been replaced. I am almost convinced that
> > timing belt replacement is, as CH says, snake oil. Besides, the quote
> > to do the work before and after a failure is not that different.


its worth it for the peace of mind and a new water pump ta boot

>
> I have heard of many instances of the belt failing past the interval, but
> very few within the interval.


  #19  
Old June 26th 05, 11:26 PM
DTJ
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On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 00:34:28 -0500, "Ray O"
> wrote:

>valves, causing extensive damage. People often find this hard to believe,
>but the folks who make the cars probably know more about the car and the
>cost benefits of performing periodic maintenance than most owners. Whether
>the cost to replace the timing belt is $200 for a Camry or $1,000 for the
>Accord, it is cheaper to change the timing belt before it breaks than
>letting it break and having to tow for an unscheduled repair or worse, tear
>down the engine for major repairs.


According to every Honda mechanic I have asked, and that is more than
a couple, a timing belt failure does not lead to any significant
damage. Every time they recommend a change, I ask them, and they look
down, admit they are just trying to make more money, and walk away
chastened for being caught at it.
  #20  
Old June 26th 05, 11:26 PM
DTJ
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On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 09:27:36 -0400, "S.S." > wrote:

>DTJ wrote:
>
>> Where are you getting those prices? An accord costs almost $1000 to
>> have the timing belt and water pump done. I would assume a Toyota is
>> similar.
>>

>It should not cost $1000 to change the t-belt and water pump on an Accord.
>I have a '93 Accord, and it cost only $350 to get it done at a private
>mechanic who specializes in Hondas.


Private mechanic...

>> However, I have had 3 Hondas with more than 130,000 miles, none of
>> which showed any indication of failure for going past the 90,000 mile
>> mark where it should have been replaced. I am almost convinced that
>> timing belt replacement is, as CH says, snake oil. Besides, the quote
>> to do the work before and after a failure is not that different.

>
>I have heard of many instances of the belt failing past the interval, but
>very few within the interval.


I have never heard of one failing. Other than the typical urban
legend you hear on the Internet.
 




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