ATF+3 ATF+4 Dexron TCM replace

Here we go again.
1994 Plymouth Voyage "3" liter Mitsubishi, rebuilt tranny with 58,000
miles

Rebuilt at Cottman. What fluid they put in 4 years ago? Who knows.
Asked if they updated the software for the TCM, Transmission Control
Module, what's that?

Car has the famous 37 mph shudder, wrong fluid and bad software
update.
Thanks to Chrysler techs on this forum who posted and emailed me on
that.

The TCM is $190 remanufactured at the dealer. Any cheaper? Can I
replace that or is that a hard thing to do? Appears to be a dealer
part. At least would get the right one with the software update or
really firmware update.

This can't be flashed if I read the TSB right.

Anyway to tell easily is Dexron was used in case of the proper ATF+3
or 7176 or whatever is supposed to be used. ATF+4 is the synthetic
version, better or what?

So many questions, sorry.

"Tree Line" > wrote in message
om...
> Here we go again.
> 1994 Plymouth Voyage "3" liter Mitsubishi, rebuilt tranny with 58,000
> miles
>
> Rebuilt at Cottman. What fluid they put in 4 years ago? Who knows.
> Asked if they updated the software for the TCM, Transmission Control
> Module, what's that?
>
> Car has the famous 37 mph shudder, wrong fluid and bad software
> update.
> Thanks to Chrysler techs on this forum who posted and emailed me on
> that.
>
> The TCM is $190 remanufactured at the dealer. Any cheaper?

Any wrecking yard TCM that has fins will work. You can get one for $100 at
a wrecking yard then the dealer can charge you $90 to flash it. That is
assuming
they still have the flash tool and a tech that remembers how to use it.

> Can I
> replace that or is that a hard thing to do? Appears to be a dealer
> part. At least would get the right one with the software update or
> really firmware update.
>
> This can't be flashed if I read the TSB right.
>

Any of the finned ones can be flashed.

> Anyway to tell easily is Dexron was used in case of the proper ATF+3
> or 7176 or whatever is supposed to be used. ATF+4 is the synthetic
> version, better or what?
>

flush and refill with atf+3 or ATF+4 whichever you prefer.

Ted

"Tree Line" > wrote in message
om...
> Here we go again.
> 1994 Plymouth Voyage "3" liter Mitsubishi, rebuilt tranny with 58,000
> miles
>
> Rebuilt at Cottman. What fluid they put in 4 years ago? Who knows.
> Asked if they updated the software for the TCM, Transmission Control
> Module, what's that?
>
> Car has the famous 37 mph shudder, wrong fluid and bad software
> update.
> Thanks to Chrysler techs on this forum who posted and emailed me on
> that.
>
> The TCM is $190 remanufactured at the dealer. Any cheaper?

Any wrecking yard TCM that has fins will work. You can get one for $100 at
a wrecking yard then the dealer can charge you $90 to flash it. That is
assuming
they still have the flash tool and a tech that remembers how to use it.

> Can I
> replace that or is that a hard thing to do? Appears to be a dealer
> part. At least would get the right one with the software update or
> really firmware update.
>
> This can't be flashed if I read the TSB right.
>

Any of the finned ones can be flashed.

> Anyway to tell easily is Dexron was used in case of the proper ATF+3
> or 7176 or whatever is supposed to be used. ATF+4 is the synthetic
> version, better or what?
>

flush and refill with atf+3 or ATF+4 whichever you prefer.

Ted

"Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
...

> Any wrecking yard TCM that has fins will work. You can get one
for $100 at
> a wrecking yard then the dealer can charge you $90 to flash it.
That is
> assuming
> they still have the flash tool and a tech that remembers how to
use it.

So the same cost. And although the fins are flashable, what about
cables and connectivity. I asked because one tech said $125 for a
rebuilt controller but NAPA does not have these and the dealer is
$190 which sounds, in this case, a bargain, if it's upgraded as
purchased.

I asked the dealer and they said $70 to see if my existing TCM
can be upgraded. I wonder if I should ask them if they will
charge for something that had a TSB, although long ago, and
probably resulted in many failed transmissions (electronically
controlled clutch was shifted too slowly causing stress on the
torque converter and self-destruction) and the wrong fluid.
Dexron is not right and is mentioned in official manuals and
places way back then. I'm told it's even on the dipstick but I
have not looked.

> > Anyway to tell easily is Dexron was used in case of the
proper ATF+3
> > or 7176 or whatever is supposed to be used. ATF+4 is the
synthetic
> > version, better or what?


> flush and refill with atf+3 or ATF+4 whichever you prefer.
>
> Ted

What type of flush? A little flush or a big flush? I have been
warned by the Chrysler dealer AND Cottman Transmissions not to
flush this old tranny because the dirt is keeping it together.
Well, it's a rebuilt, 190,000 miles with 58,000 miles on the
rebuilding by Cottman (correct fluid and TCM upgrade - who knows,
they don't.)

So is there a gentle flush or do you mean a reverse power flush.
The destruction is in the details. I am sorry to ask so many
questions but I find I make too many mistakes if I don't
over-ask. Some people can get by with broad answers. I am not one
of those lucky people.

If it's a little flush, if that exists, then it won't get the
fluid out of the torque converter which is seperate? You don't
mean just drain but a flush, yes?

It's not a question of preference, unfortunately. The ATF+4 is
synthetic so lasts longer and does a better job. But my seals are
old, 10 years old, and there is at least one reference, justified
or not, that the ATF+4 might cause possible seal leakage on these
old transmissions which were designed for ATF+2, and then ATF+3
which is non-synthetic.

The ATF+4 is probably a little bit more slippery which is fine in
my case. It's not fine if it nudges a seal to leak.

So that's my quandary. Any thoughts?

Thanks for your reply, Ted.

"Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
...

> Any wrecking yard TCM that has fins will work. You can get one
for $100 at
> a wrecking yard then the dealer can charge you $90 to flash it.
That is
> assuming
> they still have the flash tool and a tech that remembers how to
use it.

So the same cost. And although the fins are flashable, what about
cables and connectivity. I asked because one tech said $125 for a
rebuilt controller but NAPA does not have these and the dealer is
$190 which sounds, in this case, a bargain, if it's upgraded as
purchased.

I asked the dealer and they said $70 to see if my existing TCM
can be upgraded. I wonder if I should ask them if they will
charge for something that had a TSB, although long ago, and
probably resulted in many failed transmissions (electronically
controlled clutch was shifted too slowly causing stress on the
torque converter and self-destruction) and the wrong fluid.
Dexron is not right and is mentioned in official manuals and
places way back then. I'm told it's even on the dipstick but I
have not looked.

> > Anyway to tell easily is Dexron was used in case of the
proper ATF+3
> > or 7176 or whatever is supposed to be used. ATF+4 is the
synthetic
> > version, better or what?


> flush and refill with atf+3 or ATF+4 whichever you prefer.
>
> Ted

What type of flush? A little flush or a big flush? I have been
warned by the Chrysler dealer AND Cottman Transmissions not to
flush this old tranny because the dirt is keeping it together.
Well, it's a rebuilt, 190,000 miles with 58,000 miles on the
rebuilding by Cottman (correct fluid and TCM upgrade - who knows,
they don't.)

So is there a gentle flush or do you mean a reverse power flush.
The destruction is in the details. I am sorry to ask so many
questions but I find I make too many mistakes if I don't
over-ask. Some people can get by with broad answers. I am not one
of those lucky people.

If it's a little flush, if that exists, then it won't get the
fluid out of the torque converter which is seperate? You don't
mean just drain but a flush, yes?

It's not a question of preference, unfortunately. The ATF+4 is
synthetic so lasts longer and does a better job. But my seals are
old, 10 years old, and there is at least one reference, justified
or not, that the ATF+4 might cause possible seal leakage on these
old transmissions which were designed for ATF+2, and then ATF+3
which is non-synthetic.

The ATF+4 is probably a little bit more slippery which is fine in
my case. It's not fine if it nudges a seal to leak.

So that's my quandary. Any thoughts?

Thanks for your reply, Ted.

"Treeline" > wrote in message
...
> "Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Any wrecking yard TCM that has fins will work. You can get one
> for $100 at
> > a wrecking yard then the dealer can charge you $90 to flash it.
> That is
> > assuming
> > they still have the flash tool and a tech that remembers how to
> use it.
>
> So the same cost.

Well, that was somewhat of a joke - you really should call around.
If the wrecking yards in your area are full of them then maybe you
can get the trans computer for $20.

> And although the fins are flashable, what about
> cables and connectivity.

They are all the same, they use the same harness. '89/90 have to have
a wire cut with the newer firmware.

According to the green "Service/Diagnostic Procedures & Refinements Manual
for the
41TE/AE Transaxle" by Chrysler, on page 32, 1993-1995 original trans
controllers
were finned with 4 heat sinks and are flashable. To flash they require
Miller CH 5500
flash kit, as well as a DRB tool and a special cable.

It was only the 1989-1992 controllers that were non-finned and
non-flashable.

Yours is probably flashable. By the way, the fins are along one edge.

> I asked because one tech said $125 for a
> rebuilt controller but NAPA does not have these and the dealer is
> $190 which sounds, in this case, a bargain, if it's upgraded as
> purchased.
>
> I asked the dealer and they said $70 to see if my existing TCM
> can be upgraded.
> I wonder if I should ask them if they will
> charge for something that had a TSB, although long ago, and
> probably resulted in many failed transmissions (electronically
> controlled clutch was shifted too slowly causing stress on the
> torque converter and self-destruction) and the wrong fluid.

Well, the vehicle is out of warranty so they are legally not
obligated to do squat. I think you should just call the dealership
and ask their service manager if they have the special tools and
a tech that remembers how to flash the '93-'95 transmission
controller, then pay them the $70 to just flash it. After all it
isn't like they just plug in and have at it. The DRB tool itself
is like around $10K also. The tech is going to
have to dig around in documentation and such to make sure
he's got the right firmware. And of course, like any computer,
there is always a slight risk when your doing a firmware update
that your going to scrooge the controller because an error
happens when it's rewriting the PROM. If that happens then
the TCM they got on the shelf is going to go into your car
and you will end up doing a lot of yelling, and they probably
will end up eating the labor on the whole deal.

> Dexron is not right and is mentioned in official manuals and
> places way back then. I'm told it's even on the dipstick but I
> have not looked.
>

I very much doubt that it was still in the manuals for 1994. I
know that Dexon was listed on the dipstick for the '89 models
but I think even the owners manual mentioned Type 7176 back
then. I doubt also that it was on the dipstick in 1994, it isn't
on the dipstick in my 1995.

> > > Anyway to tell easily is Dexron was used in case of the
> proper ATF+3
> > > or 7176 or whatever is supposed to be used. ATF+4 is the
> synthetic
> > > version, better or what?
>
>
> > flush and refill with atf+3 or ATF+4 whichever you prefer.
> >
> > Ted
>
> What type of flush? A little flush or a big flush?

This type:

http://www.allpar.com/eek/atf.html

> I have been
> warned by the Chrysler dealer AND Cottman Transmissions not to
> flush this old tranny because the dirt is keeping it together.

That is baloney. Read the following:

http://www.allpar.com/fix/trans.html

Keep in mind that this transmission uses a fluid filter that uses a
felt-like material, not
a screen like some transmissions do. Chrysler really meant business when
they
designed the filter for this. The fluid must be absolutely clean. There
are many small
passages in the valve body and even small particles are going to jam it up.

> Well, it's a rebuilt, 190,000 miles with 58,000 miles on the
> rebuilding by Cottman (correct fluid and TCM upgrade - who knows,
> they don't.)
>
> So is there a gentle flush or do you mean a reverse power flush.

Do not reverse power flush. Unfortunately some shops have invested
heavily in flushing machines that they want to use to make money with
and are so turning a simple procedure into a more complex one and
charging a lot for it. I frankly recommend that if you change
your own oil that you do your own trans flush on these transmissions
as well as change the pan gasket and the pan filter.

The factory calls for RTV sealant on the trans pan, and they do this
for a reason. Most DIYers use cork or composite gaskets, I did
myself. However, I have discovered in mine that the pan and gasket
only hold their seal for about 2 years. Then the gasket shrinks, or the
bolts get loose enough, that it starts leaking. Once you see it start
to leak then retorque. RTV would not have this problem. Since I
change my own oil I am underneath the engine every 3000 miles and
so I am able to catch small leaks like this before they turn major.

> The destruction is in the details. I am sorry to ask so many
> questions but I find I make too many mistakes if I don't
> over-ask. Some people can get by with broad answers. I am not one
> of those lucky people.
>
> If it's a little flush, if that exists, then it won't get the
> fluid out of the torque converter which is seperate? You don't
> mean just drain but a flush, yes?
>

The method I documented on the website above gets all of the fluid.

> It's not a question of preference, unfortunately. The ATF+4 is
> synthetic so lasts longer and does a better job. But my seals are
> old, 10 years old, and there is at least one reference, justified
> or not, that the ATF+4 might cause possible seal leakage on these
> old transmissions which were designed for ATF+2, and then ATF+3
> which is non-synthetic.
>

If it was rebuilt then the seals were replaced and are of newer material.
But you aren't required to use ATF+4 on your vehicle. ATF+3 is
about a quarter of the price and is available from retail, while ATF+4
is only available from the dealer, so that made my decision for me.

> The ATF+4 is probably a little bit more slippery which is fine in
> my case. It's not fine if it nudges a seal to leak.
>

The two ATF+'s are of the same frictional coefficient.

> So that's my quandary. Any thoughts?
>

Get the TCM flashed and then change the fluid.

Ted

"Treeline" > wrote in message
...
> "Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Any wrecking yard TCM that has fins will work. You can get one
> for $100 at
> > a wrecking yard then the dealer can charge you $90 to flash it.
> That is
> > assuming
> > they still have the flash tool and a tech that remembers how to
> use it.
>
> So the same cost.

Well, that was somewhat of a joke - you really should call around.
If the wrecking yards in your area are full of them then maybe you
can get the trans computer for $20.

> And although the fins are flashable, what about
> cables and connectivity.

They are all the same, they use the same harness. '89/90 have to have
a wire cut with the newer firmware.

According to the green "Service/Diagnostic Procedures & Refinements Manual
for the
41TE/AE Transaxle" by Chrysler, on page 32, 1993-1995 original trans
controllers
were finned with 4 heat sinks and are flashable. To flash they require
Miller CH 5500
flash kit, as well as a DRB tool and a special cable.

It was only the 1989-1992 controllers that were non-finned and
non-flashable.

Yours is probably flashable. By the way, the fins are along one edge.

> I asked because one tech said $125 for a
> rebuilt controller but NAPA does not have these and the dealer is
> $190 which sounds, in this case, a bargain, if it's upgraded as
> purchased.
>
> I asked the dealer and they said $70 to see if my existing TCM
> can be upgraded.
> I wonder if I should ask them if they will
> charge for something that had a TSB, although long ago, and
> probably resulted in many failed transmissions (electronically
> controlled clutch was shifted too slowly causing stress on the
> torque converter and self-destruction) and the wrong fluid.

Well, the vehicle is out of warranty so they are legally not
obligated to do squat. I think you should just call the dealership
and ask their service manager if they have the special tools and
a tech that remembers how to flash the '93-'95 transmission
controller, then pay them the $70 to just flash it. After all it
isn't like they just plug in and have at it. The DRB tool itself
is like around $10K also. The tech is going to
have to dig around in documentation and such to make sure
he's got the right firmware. And of course, like any computer,
there is always a slight risk when your doing a firmware update
that your going to scrooge the controller because an error
happens when it's rewriting the PROM. If that happens then
the TCM they got on the shelf is going to go into your car
and you will end up doing a lot of yelling, and they probably
will end up eating the labor on the whole deal.

> Dexron is not right and is mentioned in official manuals and
> places way back then. I'm told it's even on the dipstick but I
> have not looked.
>

I very much doubt that it was still in the manuals for 1994. I
know that Dexon was listed on the dipstick for the '89 models
but I think even the owners manual mentioned Type 7176 back
then. I doubt also that it was on the dipstick in 1994, it isn't
on the dipstick in my 1995.

> > > Anyway to tell easily is Dexron was used in case of the
> proper ATF+3
> > > or 7176 or whatever is supposed to be used. ATF+4 is the
> synthetic
> > > version, better or what?
>
>
> > flush and refill with atf+3 or ATF+4 whichever you prefer.
> >
> > Ted
>
> What type of flush? A little flush or a big flush?

This type:

http://www.allpar.com/eek/atf.html

> I have been
> warned by the Chrysler dealer AND Cottman Transmissions not to
> flush this old tranny because the dirt is keeping it together.

That is baloney. Read the following:

http://www.allpar.com/fix/trans.html

Keep in mind that this transmission uses a fluid filter that uses a
felt-like material, not
a screen like some transmissions do. Chrysler really meant business when
they
designed the filter for this. The fluid must be absolutely clean. There
are many small
passages in the valve body and even small particles are going to jam it up.

> Well, it's a rebuilt, 190,000 miles with 58,000 miles on the
> rebuilding by Cottman (correct fluid and TCM upgrade - who knows,
> they don't.)
>
> So is there a gentle flush or do you mean a reverse power flush.

Do not reverse power flush. Unfortunately some shops have invested
heavily in flushing machines that they want to use to make money with
and are so turning a simple procedure into a more complex one and
charging a lot for it. I frankly recommend that if you change
your own oil that you do your own trans flush on these transmissions
as well as change the pan gasket and the pan filter.

The factory calls for RTV sealant on the trans pan, and they do this
for a reason. Most DIYers use cork or composite gaskets, I did
myself. However, I have discovered in mine that the pan and gasket
only hold their seal for about 2 years. Then the gasket shrinks, or the
bolts get loose enough, that it starts leaking. Once you see it start
to leak then retorque. RTV would not have this problem. Since I
change my own oil I am underneath the engine every 3000 miles and
so I am able to catch small leaks like this before they turn major.

> The destruction is in the details. I am sorry to ask so many
> questions but I find I make too many mistakes if I don't
> over-ask. Some people can get by with broad answers. I am not one
> of those lucky people.
>
> If it's a little flush, if that exists, then it won't get the
> fluid out of the torque converter which is seperate? You don't
> mean just drain but a flush, yes?
>

The method I documented on the website above gets all of the fluid.

> It's not a question of preference, unfortunately. The ATF+4 is
> synthetic so lasts longer and does a better job. But my seals are
> old, 10 years old, and there is at least one reference, justified
> or not, that the ATF+4 might cause possible seal leakage on these
> old transmissions which were designed for ATF+2, and then ATF+3
> which is non-synthetic.
>

If it was rebuilt then the seals were replaced and are of newer material.
But you aren't required to use ATF+4 on your vehicle. ATF+3 is
about a quarter of the price and is available from retail, while ATF+4
is only available from the dealer, so that made my decision for me.

> The ATF+4 is probably a little bit more slippery which is fine in
> my case. It's not fine if it nudges a seal to leak.
>

The two ATF+'s are of the same frictional coefficient.

> So that's my quandary. Any thoughts?
>

Get the TCM flashed and then change the fluid.

Ted

I agree with Ted, but three additional comments:

Make sure you clean the pan completely while you have it off. You will be
amazed at the amount of crud that accumulates there. I use brake cleaner
after I have wiped it out completely and scraped off all the old RTV gasket
material. Also, clean the magnet completely at the same time and then
reinstall in the same place.

Second, don't bother with using a cork gasket. The dealer sells a composite
metal and silicone gasket for these transmissions. It is a bit pricey, but
is re-usable up to three times and I have not had mine leak when all bolts
have been torqued to the specified 165 inch pounds.

Third, I use ATF+4 from the dealer, but purchase it in the gallon container
as it is cheaper. If you search you can find a web dealer that sells at
discount. I have used Galeana Chrysler Jeep in SC. Compare to local dealer
prices and ask what volume will get you a discount and how much.

Bob

"Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
...
>
Lots of really good advice removed.

I agree with Ted, but three additional comments:

Make sure you clean the pan completely while you have it off. You will be
amazed at the amount of crud that accumulates there. I use brake cleaner
after I have wiped it out completely and scraped off all the old RTV gasket
material. Also, clean the magnet completely at the same time and then
reinstall in the same place.

Second, don't bother with using a cork gasket. The dealer sells a composite
metal and silicone gasket for these transmissions. It is a bit pricey, but
is re-usable up to three times and I have not had mine leak when all bolts
have been torqued to the specified 165 inch pounds.

Third, I use ATF+4 from the dealer, but purchase it in the gallon container
as it is cheaper. If you search you can find a web dealer that sells at
discount. I have used Galeana Chrysler Jeep in SC. Compare to local dealer
prices and ask what volume will get you a discount and how much.

Bob

"Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
...
>
Lots of really good advice removed.

On Wed, 16 Nov 2004, Tree Line wrote:

> 1994 Plymouth Voyage "3" liter Mitsubishi, rebuilt tranny with 58,000
> miles
>
> Rebuilt at Cottman.

Whoops, you used a franchised transmission chain. These places specialize
in deciding that transmissions with minor problems need expensive total
rebuilds. These expensive total rebuilds are always charged for, but
frequently not actually done. You should have taken the car to a competent
independent transmission diagnostician first.

> The TCM is $190 remanufactured at the dealer. Any cheaper?

www.car-part.com , searchable used auto parts nationwide. Get a '95 or
newer TCM.

> Can I
> replace that

Yes.


> This can't be flashed if I read the TSB right.

That's why you should get the newer one, with the finned case, which can
be flashed.

> Anyway to tell easily is Dexron was used in case of the proper ATF+3

No. Call Cottman's and ask, but most of those places use a universal fluid
with additives claiming (but failing) to convert the universal fluid into
the right stuff.