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#1
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Ethanol in fuel, and E85
Our Minnesota Governor is calling for 20% ethanol in all gasoline sold
ater 2012. I know mfgs don't warranty anything beyond 15%. What specific problems does ethanol create? I know drivability is a concern due to lower vapor pressure, but E85 cars here in Minnesota seem to do okay, so even 15% gasoline in mixture seems to provide enough high vapor pressure stuff. At what point does FI and engine control computer need to start changing mixture? I will be needing to buy a new car in a year or two, and I am afraid I'll buy something that will not work well after the mandated 20% ethanol becomes all I can find at pumps. Since I generally keep a car for eight to ten years, this is a concern. Would a car capable of 20% have to have a lot of the stuff that is on E85 cars? |
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#2
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"Don Stauffer in Minneapolis" > wrote in message ... > Our Minnesota Governor is calling for 20% ethanol in all gasoline sold > ater 2012. I know mfgs don't warranty anything beyond 15%. What > specific problems does ethanol create? > > I know drivability is a concern due to lower vapor pressure, but E85 > cars here in Minnesota seem to do okay, so even 15% gasoline in mixture > seems to provide enough high vapor pressure stuff. > > At what point does FI and engine control computer need to start changing > mixture? I will be needing to buy a new car in a year or two, and I am > afraid I'll buy something that will not work well after the mandated 20% > ethanol becomes all I can find at pumps. Since I generally keep a car > for eight to ten years, this is a concern. > > Would a car capable of 20% have to have a lot of the stuff that is on > E85 cars? > Yes, Alcohol is VERY corrosive and will cause LOT's of problems in vehicles not designed for it. Sound's like your Gov is a moron, I would write a nice letter to him and to a few papers about who is going to provide repairs to vehicles damaged by the fuel. The E85 vehicles have stainless fuel lines, different injectors and different programming. Also keep in mind that a vehicle will burn roughly twice as much alcohol as gasoline. So your mileage with 20% will be about 2 mpg lower than with straight gasoline. -- Steve Williams ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
#3
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On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Steve W. wrote:
> > Our Minnesota Governor is calling for 20% ethanol in all gasoline sold > > ater 2012. > Sound's like your Gov is a moron No, it sounds like he's smart as all hell. He knows that Archer Daniels Midland not only produces the vast majority of fuel ethanol in the US, but also showers rich financial rewards on politicians who mandate the use of ADM's products. He also knows that mandating ethanol is very popular with farmers, which means easy votes. > Yes, Alcohol is VERY corrosive and will cause LOT's of problems in > vehicles not designed for it. No, ethanol itself is not especially corrosive, per se. However, it is aggressive to many plastics and elastomers not specifically designed to handle it, causes lubricity problems with moving parts in fuel systems (fuel pumps, injectors, etc.), and is highly hygroscopic. That last property is where the corrosion comes from. Not from the alcohol itself, but from the water the alcohol absorbs. What's more, alcohol contains less energy per unit volume than gasoline, so ethanol-blended fuel yields poorer specific fuel economy. |
#4
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the d.c vehicles have a 3.3 ffv vehicle /engine set up and will run on 85%
ethenol with the computer tyaking care of it all Don Stauffer in Minneapolis wrote: > Our Minnesota Governor is calling for 20% ethanol in all gasoline sold > ater 2012. I know mfgs don't warranty anything beyond 15%. What > specific problems does ethanol create? > > I know drivability is a concern due to lower vapor pressure, but E85 > cars here in Minnesota seem to do okay, so even 15% gasoline in mixture > seems to provide enough high vapor pressure stuff. > > At what point does FI and engine control computer need to start changing > mixture? I will be needing to buy a new car in a year or two, and I am > afraid I'll buy something that will not work well after the mandated 20% > ethanol becomes all I can find at pumps. Since I generally keep a car > for eight to ten years, this is a concern. > > Would a car capable of 20% have to have a lot of the stuff that is on > E85 cars? |
#5
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Steve W. wrote:
> "Don Stauffer in Minneapolis" > wrote in message > ... > >>Our Minnesota Governor is calling for 20% ethanol in all gasoline sold >>ater 2012. I know mfgs don't warranty anything beyond 15%. What >>specific problems does ethanol create? >> >>I know drivability is a concern due to lower vapor pressure, but E85 >>cars here in Minnesota seem to do okay, so even 15% gasoline in > > mixture > >>seems to provide enough high vapor pressure stuff. >> >>At what point does FI and engine control computer need to start > > changing > >>mixture? I will be needing to buy a new car in a year or two, and I > > am > >>afraid I'll buy something that will not work well after the mandated > > 20% > >> ethanol becomes all I can find at pumps. Since I generally keep a > > car > >>for eight to ten years, this is a concern. >> >>Would a car capable of 20% have to have a lot of the stuff that is on >>E85 cars? >> > > Yes, Alcohol is VERY corrosive and will cause LOT's of problems in > vehicles not designed for it. Sound's like your Gov is a moron, I would > write a nice letter to him and to a few papers about who is going to > provide repairs to vehicles damaged by the fuel. > > The E85 vehicles have stainless fuel lines, different injectors and > different programming. Also keep in mind that a vehicle will burn > roughly twice as much alcohol as gasoline. So your mileage with 20% will > be about 2 mpg lower than with straight gasoline. > > I have heard of the corrosion problem, but what materials will it corrode? I run methanol in my race car, and it is very bad on rubber, but okay with synthetics like neoprene. It does seem to have some problems with steel, none with brass or copper, none with fiberglas. How is ethanol compared to methanol? Does ethanol corrode die cast alloys? Steel? I thought car mfgs had replaced all plastics and organics a number of years ago with materials that were impervious to ethanol, in order to let cars run 15%. Are these materials only good up to 15%, or is it other materials that corrode? |
#6
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On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:49:22 -0500, "Steve W." >
wrote: > >"Don Stauffer in Minneapolis" > wrote in message ... >> Our Minnesota Governor is calling for 20% ethanol in all gasoline sold >> ater 2012. I know mfgs don't warranty anything beyond 15%. What >> specific problems does ethanol create? >> >> I know drivability is a concern due to lower vapor pressure, but E85 >> cars here in Minnesota seem to do okay, so even 15% gasoline in >mixture >> seems to provide enough high vapor pressure stuff. >> >> At what point does FI and engine control computer need to start >changing >> mixture? I will be needing to buy a new car in a year or two, and I >am >> afraid I'll buy something that will not work well after the mandated >20% >> ethanol becomes all I can find at pumps. Since I generally keep a >car >> for eight to ten years, this is a concern. >> >> Would a car capable of 20% have to have a lot of the stuff that is on >> E85 cars? >> >Yes, Alcohol is VERY corrosive and will cause LOT's of problems in There are two primary kinds of fuel alcohol. Methyl Alcohol and Ethyl Alcohol. Ethyl alcohol isn't all the corrosive but Methyl is very corrosive. Most of the blends use Ethyl (hence the name Ethanol) because to use Methyl you need the fuel system designed pretty much from the ground up with parts able to withstand the corrosiveness. >vehicles not designed for it. Sound's like your Gov is a moron, I would >write a nice letter to him and to a few papers about who is going to >provide repairs to vehicles damaged by the fuel. > >The E85 vehicles have stainless fuel lines, different injectors and >different programming. Also keep in mind that a vehicle will burn >roughly twice as much alcohol as gasoline. So your mileage with 20% will >be about 2 mpg lower than with straight gasoline. |
#7
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Alcohols are corrosive to certain metals, such as aluminum, whether or not
water is present. And, they can attack some elastomers, such as certain Nylon compositions. It is a problem that is easily solved through proper materials engineering. When the alcohol drive first started in Brasil, they realized quickly that some changes would have to be made, and engineering made easy work of it. |
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