A Cars forum. AutoBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AutoBanter forum » Auto makers » Ford Mustang
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Euro Styling and American Buyers <for Brent P



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old September 8th 06, 04:27 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 565
Default Euro Styling and American Buyers <for Brent P

In article .com>,
wrote:

Brent, here's a article I posted some time ago. Your comments please.

----

The current Detroit enthusiasm for global engineering and design is
amazing considering how often it fails to score with American buyers.
My impression is that Americans just don't think much of European
design. You might say Mercedes and BMW are successful. They a But
their 530,000 combined sales for cars and trucks, out of a market of
almost 17 million, is a limited success.
Care to look at the failures? Start with Volkswagen and its Golf,
popular in Europe but a flop here.
Go to Ford. The Contour and Mystique were American versions of the
European Mondeo. They failed. There is the Ford Focus, a
European-designed small car that started moderately well in the U.S.
but is seriously slumping.
Go to GM. Remember the Cadillac Catera, an Opel with Cadillac badges,
imported here? A flop. How about the Saturn LS, a European platform
with a plastic skin, a flop and now gone like Cateras and
Contour/Mystique. The Saturn Ion was another of those Euro platforms
used here. The most successful of the Global/European platform cars
sold here is the Chevy Malibu, the fleet special, which even GM
executives say is a design bore.
But this doesn't stop executives from thinking the answer to their
problems, particularly at GM, is at the global approach. Whenever you
bring up the failures, they just brush them aside or say they weren't
done well enough. The idea that Americans really don't care for the
European approach is beyond their radar.
Here are just a few of my complaints with this mindset. There's no
global exchange here. What GM and Ford want to build are European cars
with Euro platforms and European engineering. They just want American
badges on them. The design freedom for the American versions is quite
limited because they can only work off the Euro platforms.
If this continues, it won't be long before Americans at GM and Ford
won't be able to design and engineer a car. They'll just do pickups.
Look at General Motors: GM forgot how to do a rear-drive car and had to

borrow from GM Australia. No American car platforms get transferred for

European production. It's a one-way street. Yet the American market,
and GM and Ford's share in it, are much larger than the European
vehicle market or the GM/Ford shares.
You even see some of this thinking with trucks. When GM wanted a small
pickup, the Chevy Colorado and GMC Canyon, they started with a truck
they build in Thailand. That's the global approach. It's supposed to
save money. Of course, they couldn't get a V-6 in that pickup, but who
needs a V-6? Toyota decided to do a thoroughly American new small
pickup truck, the Tacoma. They figured what appeals in Texas might be
more important that what sells in Thailand. Right now that Tacoma is
outselling the combined GM models 2 to 1.
Now I have said the models never go the other way. So far that has been

true. GM adapted its minivan designs so that the American-built models
could be shipped to Europe. But the Europeans at GM never really wanted

them and the exports stopped. GM made a big fuss about the European
potential of its Cadillac Seville a few years back, but the GM
Europeans never really wanted to sell them. It has occurred to me that
the GM people in Europe want to design and build their own vehicles,
not sell U.S.-made cars.
Now they will have another chance to take an American car. The GM
Pontiac Solstice plant will build a version, called the Opel GT, for GM

in Europe. It will be interesting to see if the GM Germans actually try

to sell it, or if they bury them as they have those American-made
vehicles in the past.
Aura of success?
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Opel designs will sell here. The coming Saturn
Aura, which is an Opel design, looks good. It could be successful.
But I still say this is a huge market. There's no reason that we
shouldn't be able to design and build cars for our market profitably,
building what our people like, instead of taking a second-best
compromise - meaning, the best car we could make out of a car really
designed for the European tastes.
Ironically, the one company that seems to think there is something
positive in American design is Chrysler, which has German ownership.
The Chrysler 300, the Dodge Magnum and Charger don't borrow styling
from Europe. The smaller models, the PT Cruiser and the new Dodge
Caliber, are distinctive, too.
What about Toyota and its global success? Remember that the
best-selling Camry sold in America is not the same car they sell in
Europe.
What sounds better? Having Detroit design and engineer cars for the
American buyer or adapting European designs for America? And how much
money can be saved if the vehicles have to be built here anyway? The
factory and the tooling are the major costs. No savings there.
Frankly, German GM, meaning Opel, has been flopping anyway and is just
now trying to turn around. What makes anyone at GM think they can build

a better car than we can?
I recall the then-chairman of Ford, standing with me as we looked at
the new Contour. He said. "If this doesn't work we'll never try it
again." It didn't work but they haven't stopped trying to shove Euro
designs down our throats.
--

Patrick



> Brent P wrote:


>> What I would do product wise at ford:


>> Bring in successful foreign market cars. If they do well against japanese
>> and european makes overseas they should do well here. Namely focus and
>> falcon. They can be built in the US, but there is no reason not use
>> successful models elsewhere after they have proven successful. (some
>> exception for cars that obviously wouldn't sell in a particular place)


> "Euro models" haven't done particularly well for the domestics -- i.e.
> -- XR4Ti & GTO


Yeah... because the US automakers screw it up time and time again.

WTF is a merkur? That was the first screw up there. GM with the GTO?
well calling it a GTO was their first blunder. People didn't expect a
GTO in theme of 1964, they expected a GTO in the theme of the judge.
It's huge marketing blunders like that, plus not knowing how to sell
the
vehicles.

BTW, the current focus here is a warmed over, cheaped version of
europe's previous generation focus. The contour was allowed to die as
they tried to sell it like a tempo replacement.

Bring over the falcon. Move the driver's side over and don't screw
anything up. Don't rename it, keep it named falcon. There, now there's
something to compete with chrysler's V8 RWD sedans.

Chrysler is bringing over several MB designs without trouble. But then
again they don't seem to be screwing things up with goofy new make
names
and poor market research.

Ads
  #2  
Old September 8th 06, 07:47 AM posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
Brent P[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,639
Default Euro Styling and American Buyers <for Brent P

In article . com>, wrote:

> Go to Ford. The Contour and Mystique were American versions of the
> European Mondeo. They failed.


Because they tried to sell them as tempos. Or are we supposed to believe
americans so stupid as to actually consider the successful tempo the
better car?

> There is the Ford Focus, a
> European-designed small car that started moderately well in the U.S.
> but is seriously slumping.


It started badly due to quality issues in the mexican assembly plant and
likely some cost cutting on the US version. It's slumping because it's
been on the market for some time and has not been changed or updated.
Ford in Europe has replaced the vehicle.

> Go to GM. Remember the Cadillac Catera, an Opel with Cadillac badges,
> imported here? A flop. How about the Saturn LS, a European platform
> with a plastic skin, a flop and now gone like Cateras and
> Contour/Mystique. The Saturn Ion was another of those Euro platforms
> used here. The most successful of the Global/European platform cars
> sold here is the Chevy Malibu, the fleet special, which even GM
> executives say is a design bore.


I don't know GM as well but they have done things in a similiar
craptastic fashion.

> But this doesn't stop executives from thinking the answer to their
> problems, particularly at GM, is at the global approach. Whenever you
> bring up the failures, they just brush them aside or say they weren't
> done well enough.


That's true, they haven't done them well. It's appears that it's
sabotaged from within much of the time. Somebody along the way refuses
to get behind the project.

> The idea that Americans really don't care for the
> European approach is beyond their radar.


If you ignore successful vehicles from overseas. I doubt any ford guy
is going to turn down a Pantera. Nor would I expect any to take a taurus
over an aussie falcon.

> Here are just a few of my complaints with this mindset. There's no
> global exchange here. What GM and Ford want to build are European cars
> with Euro platforms and European engineering. They just want American
> badges on them.


They decontent the cars, sell them poorly, don't understand the market
and just leave the models to die. If they pushed them half as hard as
some of the crap they do sell, they would sell too. GM manages to sell
FWD hunks-o-crap by slaping classic name badges on them which leads me
to believe they just leave cars like the holden with a GTO badge on it
out to die in the field.

> The design freedom for the American versions is quite
> limited because they can only work off the Euro platforms.


They seem to be able to do quite a bit with US platforms... There is no
reason a ford of europe platform would be any more limiting than a ford
US platform.

> If this continues, it won't be long before Americans at GM and Ford
> won't be able to design and engineer a car. They'll just do pickups.
> Look at General Motors: GM forgot how to do a rear-drive car and had to
> borrow from GM Australia. No American car platforms get transferred for
> European production. It's a one-way street.


Wrong. Falcon and fairlane went to the austrailia. Mustang went to
europe. Jeep goes to europe. Just a few I know right off the top of my
head.

> true. GM adapted its minivan designs so that the American-built models
> could be shipped to Europe. But the Europeans at GM never really wanted
> them and the exports stopped. GM made a big fuss about the European
> potential of its Cadillac Seville a few years back, but the GM
> Europeans never really wanted to sell them. It has occurred to me that
> the GM people in Europe want to design and build their own vehicles,
> not sell U.S.-made cars.


Because a lot of what is foisted upon the US market is crap. Americans
aren't buying the vehicles either! The author doesn't seem to notice
that.

> But I still say this is a huge market. There's no reason that we
> shouldn't be able to design and build cars for our market profitably,
> building what our people like, instead of taking a second-best
> compromise - meaning, the best car we could make out of a car really
> designed for the European tastes.


It seems everything that goes through the US executive and marketing
process gets crapified. The longer it spends in the process in the US,
the crappier the car much of the time. Just cheapness and gagetry rather
than vehicle performance and function.

> Ironically, the one company that seems to think there is something
> positive in American design is Chrysler, which has German ownership.
> The Chrysler 300, the Dodge Magnum and Charger don't borrow styling
> from Europe. The smaller models, the PT Cruiser and the new Dodge
> Caliber, are distinctive, too.


Once again the author backs overhimself, as chrysler is sharing
platforms and is importing a number of vehicles (like some vans)
unchanged. The difference is chrysler is apparently doing it
successfully, but doing what he claims is difficult on the order of
impossible when ford and gm are talked about.

> I recall the then-chairman of Ford, standing with me as we looked at
> the new Contour. He said. "If this doesn't work we'll never try it
> again." It didn't work but they haven't stopped trying to shove Euro
> designs down our throats.


Anyone who believes that the tempo was a better car is on crack. Sorry.
The only way ford could have done better IMO was to build a proper RWD
compact again. But the problem is, going through the US system a car
turns out like the tempo.

It's hard to explain how this works, but in product development I've
found that overseas they are allowed much more freedom and forced to
turn out crap. When I worked at a large US corporation the product from
overseas was often better in many ways often had things we wanted to do.
However internal processes and politics made those products impossible
to do in the US. I doubt it's any different at ford or GM.

The reason for turning to the overseas product isn't that a good car
cant be designed here, but that it would take a very long time to
dismantle the entire culture and create the vehicles that time doesn't
exist. Will ford be able to exist for another 7 years or so the way it's
going?




  #4  
Old September 8th 06, 03:49 PM posted to rec.autos.makers.ford.mustang
Brent P[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,639
Default Euro Styling and American Buyers <for Brent P

In article >, Backyard Mechanic wrote:

> 1. There's nothing inherently wrong with the platforms, generally, it's the
> presentation... and sometimes the support logistics


That's much of what I stated.

> 2. Dont tell me the Crossfire is a success... my kid has one and likes it,
> but, like the Ram-look Chryslers, I think the design fails fast.


I didn't even mention it for specific reasons. However it is typical
chrysler styling on the MB platform. They accomplished what the author
stated earlier in the article couldn't be done.

> - do you prefer the Charger.. or the concept Challenger? nuff said?


The challenger looks like challenger. The charger looks like a truck
front end grafted to a 4 door sedan. (which is typical of chrysler
styling these days)

> 3. Are we going to blame the -blah- 500 on some inbreeding? Or is it a
> lack of vision in the US?


The 500, is based on a volvo platform as I understand it. is it blah
because it's just another blah vehicle in realm where ford apparently
thinks it should be making blah vehicles? Is it blah because it's a volvo
based taurus replacement? (a sort of melding of blah)

> Remember the japanese never got it right -with the auto-enthusiast- until
> they started up the US design studios.


240Z,280Z,RX7. They got it right with the auto-enthusiast pretty early
on. I don't know when they opened the US design studios, but that has
them doing it in the early 1970s late 1960s if your statement is true.
But as I recall they didn't do it until the 1980s.

Nissan's website appears to agree with my memory...
http://www.nissan-global.com/GCC/Jap...y/index-e.html
RX7 I'll have to check printed material at home. I have an automobile
quarterly from the late 70s with an article on the RX7's design.

> And it goes both ways... what's wrong with Jag lower lines? Simple...
> looks too much like a Ford.


It's always been a stupid idea to use a higher production platform to
make a lower end luxury car. The cimeron being the most glaring example.
And that was an all US vehicle. Perhaps that was also the catera problem.
Lincoln versailes... another one based on the granada which was built on
a stretched maverick platform which was an evolution of the
mustang/falcon platform.

> Contour looked too much like the Taurus


Such similiarities are typical of US makes going back to the 1930s at least.

Ford and GM can design good cars here. The problem is they'll
never/rarely see the light of day that way. The people doing them always
have to run the car though a crushing political system and internal
requirements that end up ruining it to at least some degree, sometimes
fatally.

I've experienced this myself with other products and what I know of Ford
and GM it isn't any different there.


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pushing Euro At American Buyers [email protected] Ford Mustang 8 March 31st 06 12:42 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AutoBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.