E85 for 94 Saturn

What would it take to get a 94 or 95 SC2 to run on E85?
Change in Fuel Delivery? Modified PCM?
E85 is now available in my area and its CHEAPER (not cheaper ENOUGH,
though)!
-WaVy

"wavy" > wrote:

> What would it take to get a 94 or 95 SC2 to run on E85?
> Change in Fuel Delivery? Modified PCM? E85 is now available
> in my area and its CHEAPER (not cheaper ENOUGH, though)!
> -WaVy

Here you go - http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php

Go to the web site and click on E85 101 on the left side of the
page. Then click on FAQ to get all your answers

~~Phil~~

--
~~Phil~~

On 1 Aug 2006 06:25:42 -0700, "wavy" > wrote:

>What would it take to get a 94 or 95 SC2 to run on E85?
>Change in Fuel Delivery? Modified PCM?
>E85 is now available in my area and its CHEAPER (not cheaper ENOUGH,
>though)!
>-WaVy


When I asked about usind e85, and wondering the requirements, I was
told I had to have my car's fuel system fully stainless steel.

Considering my amount of underside rust I have, I didn't even want to
look. I'm just guessing what type of materials must have been used in
my 97SL2.

later,

tom @ www.WorkAtHomePlans.com

On 01 Aug 2006 13:27:10 GMT, (Phil Marshall) wrote:

>"wavy" > wrote:
>
>> What would it take to get a 94 or 95 SC2 to run on E85?
>> Change in Fuel Delivery? Modified PCM? E85 is now available
>> in my area and its CHEAPER (not cheaper ENOUGH, though)!
>> -WaVy
>
>Here you go - http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php
>
>Go to the web site and click on E85 101 on the left side of the
>page. Then click on FAQ to get all your answers
>
>~~Phil~~


ALso E85 has less energy so it does not have the silver lining you are
looking for and you will need to replace all of your metal fuel lines
with Stainless Steel ones because of high water content of it by
chemical nature. .
-----------------
The SnoMan
www.thesnoman.com

Didnt find anything very hopeful on the "emmision test" qualifier.
Seems that our wonderful government makes it illegal to install
aftermarket conversion on non E85 vehicles. On the other hand...
(who's business is it what I do under the hood as long as I can still
pass emission tests!!!) I mean - will the EPA police be parked
somewhere near the E85 pumps, watching for ethanol anarchists?!

The only possibly definate I found so far is a kit from
http://flextek.com/shop.htm
I think its built in Brazil. Dont know for sure if it is plug/polarity
compatible. It has a remote alcohol/gasoline switch. Polarity
inversion kit is $90. Four cylinder wiring/computer kit is $516
(WHEW!)
I have no idea if the plastic Saturn fuel tank, fuel pump, or fuel
lines are E85 Ok.
(Anyone?)

I assume that the "brain" in the FlexTec unit works with the original
PCM in a way that emulates the volumetric equivalent of gasoline, but
controls the operation of the fuel injectors autonomously. (I guess
that should work!)

Unless the cost advantage of E85 becomes more significant though, I
dont think the cost of converting would be economically feasable.
-WaV

Phil Marshall wrote:
> "wavy" > wrote:
>
> > What would it take to get a 94 or 95 SC2 to run on E85?
> > Change in Fuel Delivery? Modified PCM? E85 is now available
> > in my area and its CHEAPER (not cheaper ENOUGH, though)!
> > -WaVy
>
> Here you go - http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php
>
> Go to the web site and click on E85 101 on the left side of the
> page. Then click on FAQ to get all your answers
>
> ~~Phil~~
>
> --
> ~~Phil~~

SnoMan wrote:
<<snip>>
> >
> >~~Phil~~
>
>
> ALso E85 has less energy so it does not have the silver lining you are
> looking for and you will need to replace all of your metal fuel lines
> with Stainless Steel ones because of high water content of it by
> chemical nature. .


As an individual doing a DIY swap federal EPA regulations are of
minimal concern. The Federales have never prosecuted a DIYer for
violations yet. Passing your State regulations if your state has
inspections is a concern.

E85 does not present a problem to metal fuel components but it might
to various rubber parts. Most rubber parts in cars today are largely
ethanol proof, but you might consider upgrading any flex hoses and
fitting a good prefilter to the initial fuel point (somewhere before
the fuel rail).

The bottom line is that on straight E85 you are going to have to flow
roughly 40 percent more fuel, and the fuel/air ratio curves are going
to be different. If you can fit an E85 sensor compatible ECM and the
sensor and retain a factory harness, and somewhat larger injectors and
come up with an appropriate map, you are okay. Otherwise you are going
to have to use an aftermarket ECM and probably again different
injectors. One conversion for VWs kept the Digifant EFI and added a GM
TBI unit that ran either gas or ethanol simply by enabling or disabling
the TBI injectors.

If you are going to run straight E85 all the time, a quick fix might
be to get the engine running open loop and put in injectors that will
flow 40% more than the stock ones. Many domestic and foreign ECMs have
"secret" open loop modes for vehicles sold in leaded fuel markets which
can't use a cat or O2 sensor.

Converting to an aftermarket mechanical FI or, Ghod forbid, a carb
makes the whole thing simple: just jet appropriately.

Problems include: if you move to a inspection/IM state, sell the
vehicle, or they quit selling E85 you need to convert back. And
economics: E85 is no cheaper by heat value!

Easiest cheapest way to run E85 is buy a old simple motorcycle or VW
Bug with a single carb you can rejet, replace all the rubber, slosh the
tank and be good to go.

On 1 Aug 2006 19:46:10 -0700, "Bret Ludwig" >
wrote:

>E85 does not present a problem to metal fuel components but it might
>to various rubber parts. Most rubber parts in cars today are largely
>ethanol proof, but you might consider upgrading any flex hoses and
>fitting a good prefilter to the initial fuel point (somewhere before


Actually is is a problem for plan metal parts because the alchol in
E85 will react with them the same as water would basically hence the
need for plastic, proper rubber or stainless steel fuel lines.
-----------------
The SnoMan
www.thesnoman.com

SnoMan wrote:
> On 1 Aug 2006 19:46:10 -0700, "Bret Ludwig" >
> wrote:
>
> >E85 does not present a problem to metal fuel components but it might
> >to various rubber parts. Most rubber parts in cars today are largely
> >ethanol proof, but you might consider upgrading any flex hoses and
> >fitting a good prefilter to the initial fuel point (somewhere before
>
>
> Actually is is a problem for plan metal parts because the alchol in
> E85 will react with them the same as water would basically hence the
> need for plastic, proper rubber or stainless steel fuel lines.

None of the racing cars running methanol used stainless fuel lines,
and I don't think E85 factory cars do either. Actually stainless steel
is a poor choice for fuel lines for reasons known to anyone with P&W or
GE jet engine experience.

I wouldn't worry about ethanol too much in terms of materials
compatibility on modern cars. Methanol is a different issue.

On 2 Aug 2006 18:17:09 -0700, "Bret Ludwig" >
wrote:

> None of the racing cars running methanol used stainless fuel lines,
>and I don't think E85 factory cars do either. Actually stainless steel
>is a poor choice for fuel lines for reasons known to anyone with P&W or
>GE jet engine experience.


Big differenc between a racing car that sees litle usage and lot of
overhauls and a daily driver. It will corroed plain steel lines with
time. Just look at the metal fuel lines on a E85 car and you will see
because Detriot would not waste money on SS fuel lines if it was not
needed.
-----------------
The SnoMan
www.thesnoman.com

After looking over the following data, I've concluded that E85 EXISTS
only so that the current bureaucratic slimeballs of stupidity can claim
that "They are doing SOMETHING..." (when the current unsustainable
situation is just fine with congress and the PREZ & the big oil
connections)
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byfuel/FFV2000.shtml

Your vehicle would burn SO much more E85 than straight gasoline, that
you'd save money by spending $3 per gallon of gasoline than spending
$2.50 per gallon for E85!
Lets suppose your car gets 25mpg driving to work and back every day.
At $3 per gallon, that's 12 cents per mile.
Your 25mpg car MIGHT get something like 20mpg on E85. At $2.50 per
gallon, that's 12.5 cents per mile.
So 10,000 miles later you'll have spent $1200 on gasoline or $1250 on
E85. You havent saved SQUAT.
(and the 20mpg on E85 in a car that otherwise would get 25mpg on
gasoline - that might be with a tailwind mostly going downhill)

For E85 to be cost effective, it would have about 2/3 (or less) of the
price of gasoline.
-WaV

>
> When I asked about usind e85, and wondering the requirements, I was
> told I had to have my car's fuel system fully stainless steel.
>
> Considering my amount of underside rust I have, I didn't even want to
> look. I'm just guessing what type of materials must have been used in
> my 97SL2.
>
> later,
>
> tom @ www.WorkAtHomePlans.com