Two very basic 4x4 questions (Scout 80)

I'm in the process of acquiring one of these as a project to work on
this spring, and I've got two really basic and stupid questions (this
is my first manual vehicle, my first 4x4, and the first vehicle I've
bought that will require significant work to keep it operational):

1. what is the shift pattern for the 3-speed transmission? If there was
a decal anywhere, it's long gone, and:

2. is there a resource that explains how the drivetrain works so I can
understand how the various interrelated settings should be operated?

As I understand it's engine -> clutch -> gearbox -> transfer case ->
axles. Front axle can be switched in or out, and then the hubs
themselves can be locked or unlocked by getting out and twisting the
selector on each wheel.

So I've got three speeds from the gearbox, and two from the transfer
case, giving me six possibilities. Then I can choose to have the front
axle driven or free. Then I can either lock or freewheel the front
hubs. For normal on-road dry driving, I should be running the transfer
case in high and the front hubs free, right?

I don't understand:
a) why the transfer case has a neutral setting,
b) why the truck ships with locking hubs when the same functionality
can be achieved by switching the front axle to free; what's the
difference?

Welcome to the wonderful world of "what nexr?". I drove one of those
things for several years and only sold it when it finally got to the
point where things were wearing out faster than I could replace them -
but I bought it at auction from the Wisconsin Dept. of Natural
Resources with the apeedo zeroed out and put another 130k miles on it,
so I guess it was tired.

Best I recall - it's been 25 years or so - the shift was reverse
forward left. First was rear left, second forward right, third rear
left - the old H pattern. Simple enough to find out - put it forward
left and ease out the clutch. If it moves backward, that's reverse
<g>.

You have a horse of a drivetrain in that thing. The only problem it
ever gave me was it had worn bearings when I bought it and the counter
shaft in the transfer case ran through the new bearings by 100k miles.
Think of it this way:

You have an engine coupled by a clutch to the transmission - same as
nearly every vehicle made. In a 2WD vehicle, the transmission
connects to the drive axle via the drive shaft. In yours, they add
another gear box between the transmission and the rear end. That box
provides two functions: it gives you a selection of 2 gear ratios
(effectively doubling the number of gears in the transmission) and it
couples in a connection to a second drive shaft so that you can drive
the front axle as well as the rear. Mine also had a third coupling on
the front for a power takeoff (PTO) drive to run auxiliary equipment -
I had a 12 ton PTO monster winch on mine.

Couple of considerations. When you have the front hubs locked in and
engage the front axle via the transfer case, you create a solid lock
between the front and rear axles. You want to keep the tires the same
size front and rear or you will build up some large forces trying to
move - the two axles are locked together so something has to give to
allow the motion. With normal use (both axles with the same
differential ratios and the same size tires on dirt or slippery
surfaces, that is taken care of by tire slippage. Even with the same
nominal tires sizes on both ends, you still need that slippage to take
care of small differences. 4WD is for surfaces that are loose enough
or slick enough for some tire slippage. Your transfer case is strong
enough to take a lot of abuse but using 4WD on hight traction surfaces
creates a LOT of pressure on the whole system and things are gonna
break. I managed to eat a few u-joints along the way.

There are several reasons for a neutral in the tc. First, you have to
have it simply to allow enough room for the gears to clear when
shifting between the high and low range without locking solid - a bad
thing. Second, if you use the PTO you want to be able to connect the
engine to it while sitting still. A third reason I used it was for
starting on those 30 below mornings. With the little 152 4-banger, I
had to hold in the clutch until the engine was running then put tranny
in neutral. Ease off the clutch to get the tranny spinning, let it
run that way until it would idle. Put the tc in neutral, shift to
reverse and repeat until the transmission loosed up. Go thru all the
gears, then put the tc in low range, 2WD and hope like heck I had
enough power to spin the rest of the drive train to get moving without
stalling. With that one, I figured that if the engine stalled before
I got it to move I was done for. What I would have given for the
modern synthetic oils for the drivetrain! Or maybe a garage...

On necessity for you will be a repair manual. The best I found was
and old (circa 1965) MOTORS manual. Next to the factory service
manual, that was the best. The Haynes and Chilton manuals are OK, but
they tend to be generic and lack a lot of detail that you will want.
You might find something at the local library.

If the body is in good shape - that midwestern winter salt tends to
reduce them to rubble in short order - you want to check the rubber
parts and replace them right off the bat if they are not in good
shape. The spring and shackle bushings are one thing to check closely
followed by the motor and transmission mounts. Also check the brake
lines for rust.

On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 18:19:17 UTC wrote:

> I'm in the process of acquiring one of these as a project to work on
> this spring, and I've got two really basic and stupid questions (this
> is my first manual vehicle, my first 4x4, and the first vehicle I've
> bought that will require significant work to keep it operational):
>
> 1. what is the shift pattern for the 3-speed transmission? If there was
> a decal anywhere, it's long gone, and:
>
> 2. is there a resource that explains how the drivetrain works so I can
> understand how the various interrelated settings should be operated?
>
> As I understand it's engine -> clutch -> gearbox -> transfer case ->
> axles. Front axle can be switched in or out, and then the hubs
> themselves can be locked or unlocked by getting out and twisting the
> selector on each wheel.
>
> So I've got three speeds from the gearbox, and two from the transfer
> case, giving me six possibilities. Then I can choose to have the front
> axle driven or free. Then I can either lock or freewheel the front
> hubs. For normal on-road dry driving, I should be running the transfer
> case in high and the front hubs free, right?
>
> I don't understand:
> a) why the transfer case has a neutral setting,
> b) why the truck ships with locking hubs when the same functionality
> can be achieved by switching the front axle to free; what's the
> difference?
>


--
Will Honea

Thanks for your reply.

> left - the old H pattern. Simple enough to find out - put it forward
> left and ease out the clutch. If it moves backward, that's reverse
> <g>.

Thus far I haven't worked up the gumption even to start it. It's
sitting at the front of a driveway with frangible items directly in
front of it and my mother-in-law's car right behind it.

The clutch was described to me as being very stiff, and I've tried
pressing it without the engine running - it goes down easily about an
inch, then gets so stiff I don't want to put any more force on it for
fear of breaking something. Is the clutch power-assisted; you think it
will operate differently with the engine running?

> connects to the drive axle via the drive shaft. In yours, they add
> another gear box between the transmission and the rear end. That box
> provides two functions: it gives you a selection of 2 gear ratios

So... for normal hard road use I would run the transfer case in hi,
correct?

> engine to it while sitting still. A third reason I used it was for
> starting on those 30 below mornings. With the little 152 4-banger, I
> had to hold in the clutch until the engine was running then put tranny
> in neutral. Ease off the clutch to get the tranny spinning, let it

Just to make sure I understand this - you mean your starter didn't
develop enough torque to turn the engine + trans in N? So I'm going to
have to grit my teeth and put 500lbs of force on that clutch pedal to
get the beast started?

> On necessity for you will be a repair manual. The best I found was
> and old (circa 1965) MOTORS manual. Next to the factory service

Yep, looking around for that. As soon as the guy dropped it off, I took
a walk around it and made a first-pass inventory of things to
buy/todos... weather stripping kit... gas tanks both leak around
senders, can't fix that until I get it into heated garage or spring
comes (and heated garage is stuffed full of junk until some guys come
do our attic and we can move all the junk into the attic, so it's a
dead heat there ... one brake needs adjusting... need to adjust one
of the headlamps... probably need new battery... air hose missing...
would like new tires... need new driver side lap belt... need new
lockset because passenger door lock is missing... you know, all the
little things that turn a $2500 turnkey car into a $5000 car that needs
several months of weekends' work

> If the body is in good shape - that midwestern winter salt tends to
> reduce them to rubble in short order - you want to check the rubber

The body's in *amazingly* good shape (came from ID originally, been
owned here in NY for several years), there are no visible dents, hardly
any rust and what there is looks to be very fixable even with my modest
skills. The truck has both fullsize hardtop and soft top and it
includes the removable back seat. Someone treated the floors with that
black high-friction truck bed paint, they look almost 100% rust free.
Overall it's in darn good shape for a 40yo vehicle, I think it was
quite a bargain.

> parts and replace them right off the bat if they are not in good
> shape. The spring and shackle bushings are one thing to check closely
> followed by the motor and transmission mounts. Also check the brake
> lines for rust.

Thanks, time to put the coveralls back on and get a flashlight

On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 21:08:23 UTC wrote:

> Thanks for your reply.
>
> > left - the old H pattern. Simple enough to find out - put it forward
> > left and ease out the clutch. If it moves backward, that's reverse
> > <g>.
>
> Thus far I haven't worked up the gumption even to start it. It's
> sitting at the front of a driveway with frangible items directly in
> front of it and my mother-in-law's car right behind it.
>
> The clutch was described to me as being very stiff, and I've tried
> pressing it without the engine running - it goes down easily about an
> inch, then gets so stiff I don't want to put any more force on it for
> fear of breaking something. Is the clutch power-assisted; you think it
> will operate differently with the engine running?

You say 40 years old? Sounds like my '65. The clutch will be
hydraulic and should not require you to stand on it. From what you
describe, the throwout arm or bearing could be binding or the pressure
plate could be trashed. You are lucky in one respect - pulling the
transmission to get at the clutch is pretty easy. Take the center
cover over the tranmission off and you can pull the whole thing by
yourself. I used a couple of pullies hung from a 4x4 across the two
doors to lift enough to slide it in and out then lowered it to the
floor to work on it. Be sure to support the rear of the engine.

> > connects to the drive axle via the drive shaft. In yours, they add
> > another gear box between the transmission and the rear end. That box
> > provides two functions: it gives you a selection of 2 gear ratios
>
> So... for normal hard road use I would run the transfer case in hi,
> correct?

Dry roads. 4WD is useful in snow and ice - just leave the front hubs
locked and you can shift the front axle in and out as needed. Low
range is really a creeper gear range - mine was gear so low that I
think I could put it in first gear with 4-LO, let the clutch out then
walk around the vehicle smoking a cigarette while it took all the
slack out of the gear train. Well, maybe that's a slight exageration,
but it seems to me that top speed in 4-lo was on the oder of 20-25 mph
in 3rd gear. Felt like it would the side of a building at idle in 1st
gear. Note that you can leave the front hubs locked and use the tc
for diaconnect. I normally ran mine locked all winter unless it was a
highway run in good weather. Costs you a little bit of gass mileage
but not enough to really matter. And that's another piece you should
look at - pull the hubs and lube them as shown in the book or they
will require a gorilla effort to move when you go to lock/unlock them.

>
> > engine to it while sitting still. A third reason I used it was for
> > starting on those 30 below mornings. With the little 152 4-banger, I
> > had to hold in the clutch until the engine was running then put tranny
> > in neutral. Ease off the clutch to get the tranny spinning, let it
>
> Just to make sure I understand this - you mean your starter didn't
> develop enough torque to turn the engine + trans in N? So I'm going to
> have to grit my teeth and put 500lbs of force on that clutch pedal to
> get the beast started?

The starter has plenty of oomph - but the engine I had didn't have
enough power to keep itself running with a cold crankcase plus the
load of a cold drive train. Mind you, this was cold soaked at 20-30
below with straight petroleum lube all the way thru. A good block
heater (or better yet, a gargage) will fix that and synthetics in the
transmission, transfer case, and differentials should also make a
world of difference. If mine stalled too soon after one of those
frozen starts, the spark plugs would forst and it was all over until
either the weather warmed up or I pulled the plugs to dry them.

> > On necessity for you will be a repair manual. The best I found was
> > and old (circa 1965) MOTORS manual. Next to the factory service
>
> Yep, looking around for that. As soon as the guy dropped it off, I took
> a walk around it and made a first-pass inventory of things to
> buy/todos... weather stripping kit... gas tanks both leak around
> senders, can't fix that until I get it into heated garage or spring
> comes (and heated garage is stuffed full of junk until some guys come
> do our attic and we can move all the junk into the attic, so it's a
> dead heat there ... one brake needs adjusting... need to adjust one
> of the headlamps... probably need new battery... air hose missing...
> would like new tires... need new driver side lap belt... need new
> lockset because passenger door lock is missing... you know, all the
> little things that turn a $2500 turnkey car into a $5000 car that needs
> several months of weekends' work
>
> > If the body is in good shape - that midwestern winter salt tends to
> > reduce them to rubble in short order - you want to check the rubber
>
> The body's in *amazingly* good shape (came from ID originally, been
> owned here in NY for several years), there are no visible dents, hardly
> any rust and what there is looks to be very fixable even with my modest
> skills. The truck has both fullsize hardtop and soft top and it
> includes the removable back seat. Someone treated the floors with that
> black high-friction truck bed paint, they look almost 100% rust free.
> Overall it's in darn good shape for a 40yo vehicle, I think it was
> quite a bargain.

As Isaid, Wisconsin salt had done it's work on mine. By the time I
sold it, both gas tanks had pinhole leaks rusted thru, I had replaced
both floor pans, the rocker panels were shot, and the rear fender
areas were pretty cheesy. I felt like I got my $500 out of it, tho.
Drove it 12 years including a couple of cross country moves.

> > parts and replace them right off the bat if they are not in good
> > shape. The spring and shackle bushings are one thing to check closely
> > followed by the motor and transmission mounts. Also check the brake
> > lines for rust.
>
> Thanks, time to put the coveralls back on and get a flashlight
>


--
Will Honea

Will Honea wrote:

> hydraulic and should not require you to stand on it. From what you
> describe, the throwout arm or bearing could be binding or the pressure
> plate could be trashed. You are lucky in one respect - pulling the

Previous owner said he has been driving it like that for 5 years; the
problem has persisted after replacing the master and rebuilding the
slave cyl, and he hasn't found the energy to look further. He has a 77
which is his favorite child; this one is the *******

> but not enough to really matter. And that's another piece you should
> look at - pull the hubs and lube them as shown in the book or they
> will require a gorilla effort to move when you go to lock/unlock them.

I'm a bit aghast at the amount of routine maintenance that the manual
calls out. I've taken some pictures and documented what I know to be on
the todo list at http://www.larwe.com/scout/ - There went a bunch more
free time!

> The starter has plenty of oomph - but the engine I had didn't have
> enough power to keep itself running with a cold crankcase plus the

OIC. I don't know if it ever gets that cold in NY. I'm reading up on
lubrication now and of course finding the usual perfectly balanced
sample of people who say "do this" vs "do that". Some people maintain
that switching to synthetics will instantly wash all the sludge out of
the cracks in any old seals and thereby create a thousand leaks. Others
swear that dinosaur oils are the work of the devil.

On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 02:35:59 UTC wrote:

>
> Will Honea wrote:
>
> > hydraulic and should not require you to stand on it. From what you
> > describe, the throwout arm or bearing could be binding or the pressure
> > plate could be trashed. You are lucky in one respect - pulling the
>
> Previous owner said he has been driving it like that for 5 years; the
> problem has persisted after replacing the master and rebuilding the
> slave cyl, and he hasn't found the energy to look further. He has a 77
> which is his favorite child; this one is the *******

Step on it, what do you have to lose?. If he changed out the clutch
slave cylinder he may have gotten the wrong one. If the diameter is
too small on the slave or too big on the master side, it will also
feel that way.

> > but not enough to really matter. And that's another piece you should
> > look at - pull the hubs and lube them as shown in the book or they
> > will require a gorilla effort to move when you go to lock/unlock them.
>
> I'm a bit aghast at the amount of routine maintenance that the manual
> calls out. I've taken some pictures and documented what I know to be on
> the todo list at http://www.larwe.com/scout/ - There went a bunch more
> free time!

Most of this is a one-time check/fix then jsut keep your eye on
things. Such things as the transmission, tc, and diffs can also slide
until you get to them. When I bought mine I drove it home and spent a
solid week rebuilding the transmission and tc in the course of which I
also did the clutch. Anytime I buy a used vehicle that I intend to
keep any length of time my very first step is to change ALL the
fluids, check the brake shoes/pads, and lube anything that will hold
grease. BTW, I used chassis grease in those front knuckles - never
could keep them from leaking the gear oil out.
>
> > The starter has plenty of oomph - but the engine I had didn't have
> > enough power to keep itself running with a cold crankcase plus the
>
> OIC. I don't know if it ever gets that cold in NY. I'm reading up on
> lubrication now and of course finding the usual perfectly balanced
> sample of people who say "do this" vs "do that". Some people maintain
> that switching to synthetics will instantly wash all the sludge out of
> the cracks in any old seals and thereby create a thousand leaks. Others
> swear that dinosaur oils are the work of the devil.

Matter of choice but in those temps I'll chance the leaks. You didn't
say what part of NY you are in, but if it's upstate I would expect
enough cold to warrant some attention. Don't forget to drain and
flush the cooling system in one this old. You might also consider
running a garden hose through the heater while you are at it to force
out 40 years worth of crap. You'll spend several weekends getting it
ready, but it will save some long, cold walks down the road.

--
Will Honea