90 spirit won't run

The car starts, but immediately dies if I don't keep pumping the gas. I
noticed something else last night. The engine seems to bog down for a
fraction of a second when the gas is first injected. If I remember
correctly, it didn't accelerate until the gas was no longer being injected.
Then it dies if I don't pump the gas again. No dark smoke like it's too
rich.
Thanks
Wes

"maxpower" > wrote in message
...
> ok first of all you only have 3 seconds of spark and fuel, if the engine
> does not start within that time frame it shuts both off untill restarted
> again,second, if you push on the gas pedal while cranking the engine, this
> could cut the fuel off if you pump it., it sounds as if you have fuel
> pressure and the regulator is doing its job properly.If you see fuel
> spraying as you crank it and it does not start you have some other
problem,
> if you have spark and fuel, you need to check the timing belt for proper
> settings, If you e mail me back i wont get your message for awhile, i just
> read the ones you sent me a few days ago, post here and i will try to help
> you out, o yes, if you keep trying to start the engine, the injectors
spray
> fuel in the cylinders, this could also cause a flooded condition and make
> the engine a no start
> "Wes Faul" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Is there a way to test the fuel pressure regulator? When I tested the
> fuel
> > pressure, I pinched off the return line, and the pressure (on the
intake)
> > did increase.
> > Wes
> >
> > "Wes Faul" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Alright - I took a look at it again last night. Fuel Pressure was
> reading
> > a
> > > steady ~14 PSI which should be fine (14.5 is what the manual said). I
> > > looked down the throttle body while my brother cranked it over last
> night
> > > and I think I found the problem. Fuel is injected when it's cranking
> and
> > > when you first step on the gas pedal. It does NOT continue to inject
> when
> > > it idles or while you hold the gas down. I don't have an
oscilloscope,
> > but
> > > my multimeter showed a constant 14V at the fuel injector, so it should
> be
> > > injecting fuel. I called the local dodge dealer, and the technician
> said
> > it
> > > sounded like the fuel pressure regulator. I guess I'll replace that
> > tonight
> > > and see if that fixes it.
> > > Any other suggestions on what it could be?
> > > Thanks,
> > > Wes
> > >
> > > "aarcuda69062" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > In article >,
> > > > (Faulguys) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Alright - here's an update. We checked the resistance to the ECM
> from
> > > the
> > > > > speed sensor, TPS, AIS, and fuel injector cap. The only thing
with
> a
> > > > > noticeable resistance was the ground from the fuel injector cap,
> which
> > > read
> > > > > between 9 and 10 ohms. I was able to keep the car idling using
> > starting
> > > > > fluid.
> > > > > While it was idling, the hot wire going to the fuel injector cap
> was
> > > reading
> > > > > a
> > > > > steady 14V.
> > > > > From this info, I have a few questions.
> > > > > 1. I assume I should replace the ground wire from the fuel
injector
> > > cap - 9
> > > > > ohms is way too high.
> > > >
> > > > There is no ground from the fuel injector.
> > > > One terminal of the injector is fed constant12 volts (14ish with
> > > > engine running), the other terminal is pulled to ground thru the
> > > > ECM.
> > > > 9 ohms is meaningless, a voltage drop would be a more meaningful
> > > > measurement. Tough to do without an oscilloscope though...
> > > >
> > > > > 2. Is the 14V for the injector cap within reason?
> > > >
> > > > 14 volts is nominal when the engine is running and the alternator
> > > > is functioning correctly.
> > > >
> > > > > 3. Is there anything else it could be besides the fuel pressure
or
> > the
> > > > > injector itself? I'm checking to see if I can get my hands on a
> fuel
> > > > > pressure
> > > > > guage tonight.
> > > >
> > > > You haven't checked fuel pressure and volume yet?
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Assuming that you are not losing spark, the fuel pressure is maintaining 14
psi........ then you may have a faulty fuel injector, was there an injector
circuit fault found at one time, i think it would be a code 26 but not sure?
"Wes Faul" > wrote in message
...
> The car starts, but immediately dies if I don't keep pumping the gas. I
> noticed something else last night. The engine seems to bog down for a
> fraction of a second when the gas is first injected. If I remember
> correctly, it didn't accelerate until the gas was no longer being
injected.
> Then it dies if I don't pump the gas again. No dark smoke like it's too
> rich.
> Thanks
> Wes
>
> "maxpower" > wrote in message
> ...
> > ok first of all you only have 3 seconds of spark and fuel, if the engine
> > does not start within that time frame it shuts both off untill restarted
> > again,second, if you push on the gas pedal while cranking the engine,
this
> > could cut the fuel off if you pump it., it sounds as if you have fuel
> > pressure and the regulator is doing its job properly.If you see fuel
> > spraying as you crank it and it does not start you have some other
> problem,
> > if you have spark and fuel, you need to check the timing belt for proper
> > settings, If you e mail me back i wont get your message for awhile, i
just
> > read the ones you sent me a few days ago, post here and i will try to
help
> > you out, o yes, if you keep trying to start the engine, the injectors
> spray
> > fuel in the cylinders, this could also cause a flooded condition and
make
> > the engine a no start
> > "Wes Faul" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Is there a way to test the fuel pressure regulator? When I tested the
> > fuel
> > > pressure, I pinched off the return line, and the pressure (on the
> intake)
> > > did increase.
> > > Wes
> > >
> > > "Wes Faul" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Alright - I took a look at it again last night. Fuel Pressure was
> > reading
> > > a
> > > > steady ~14 PSI which should be fine (14.5 is what the manual said).
I
> > > > looked down the throttle body while my brother cranked it over last
> > night
> > > > and I think I found the problem. Fuel is injected when it's
cranking
> > and
> > > > when you first step on the gas pedal. It does NOT continue to
inject
> > when
> > > > it idles or while you hold the gas down. I don't have an
> oscilloscope,
> > > but
> > > > my multimeter showed a constant 14V at the fuel injector, so it
should
> > be
> > > > injecting fuel. I called the local dodge dealer, and the technician
> > said
> > > it
> > > > sounded like the fuel pressure regulator. I guess I'll replace that
> > > tonight
> > > > and see if that fixes it.
> > > > Any other suggestions on what it could be?
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Wes
> > > >
> > > > "aarcuda69062" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > In article >,
> > > > > (Faulguys) wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Alright - here's an update. We checked the resistance to the
ECM
> > from
> > > > the
> > > > > > speed sensor, TPS, AIS, and fuel injector cap. The only thing
> with
> > a
> > > > > > noticeable resistance was the ground from the fuel injector cap,
> > which
> > > > read
> > > > > > between 9 and 10 ohms. I was able to keep the car idling using
> > > starting
> > > > > > fluid.
> > > > > > While it was idling, the hot wire going to the fuel injector
cap
> > was
> > > > reading
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > steady 14V.
> > > > > > From this info, I have a few questions.
> > > > > > 1. I assume I should replace the ground wire from the fuel
> injector
> > > > cap - 9
> > > > > > ohms is way too high.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is no ground from the fuel injector.
> > > > > One terminal of the injector is fed constant12 volts (14ish with
> > > > > engine running), the other terminal is pulled to ground thru the
> > > > > ECM.
> > > > > 9 ohms is meaningless, a voltage drop would be a more meaningful
> > > > > measurement. Tough to do without an oscilloscope though...
> > > > >
> > > > > > 2. Is the 14V for the injector cap within reason?
> > > > >
> > > > > 14 volts is nominal when the engine is running and the alternator
> > > > > is functioning correctly.
> > > > >
> > > > > > 3. Is there anything else it could be besides the fuel pressure
> or
> > > the
> > > > > > injector itself? I'm checking to see if I can get my hands on a
> > fuel
> > > > > > pressure
> > > > > > guage tonight.
> > > > >
> > > > > You haven't checked fuel pressure and volume yet?
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Assuming that you are not losing spark, the fuel pressure is maintaining 14
psi........ then you may have a faulty fuel injector, was there an injector
circuit fault found at one time, i think it would be a code 26 but not sure?
"Wes Faul" > wrote in message
...
> The car starts, but immediately dies if I don't keep pumping the gas. I
> noticed something else last night. The engine seems to bog down for a
> fraction of a second when the gas is first injected. If I remember
> correctly, it didn't accelerate until the gas was no longer being
injected.
> Then it dies if I don't pump the gas again. No dark smoke like it's too
> rich.
> Thanks
> Wes
>
> "maxpower" > wrote in message
> ...
> > ok first of all you only have 3 seconds of spark and fuel, if the engine
> > does not start within that time frame it shuts both off untill restarted
> > again,second, if you push on the gas pedal while cranking the engine,
this
> > could cut the fuel off if you pump it., it sounds as if you have fuel
> > pressure and the regulator is doing its job properly.If you see fuel
> > spraying as you crank it and it does not start you have some other
> problem,
> > if you have spark and fuel, you need to check the timing belt for proper
> > settings, If you e mail me back i wont get your message for awhile, i
just
> > read the ones you sent me a few days ago, post here and i will try to
help
> > you out, o yes, if you keep trying to start the engine, the injectors
> spray
> > fuel in the cylinders, this could also cause a flooded condition and
make
> > the engine a no start
> > "Wes Faul" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Is there a way to test the fuel pressure regulator? When I tested the
> > fuel
> > > pressure, I pinched off the return line, and the pressure (on the
> intake)
> > > did increase.
> > > Wes
> > >
> > > "Wes Faul" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Alright - I took a look at it again last night. Fuel Pressure was
> > reading
> > > a
> > > > steady ~14 PSI which should be fine (14.5 is what the manual said).
I
> > > > looked down the throttle body while my brother cranked it over last
> > night
> > > > and I think I found the problem. Fuel is injected when it's
cranking
> > and
> > > > when you first step on the gas pedal. It does NOT continue to
inject
> > when
> > > > it idles or while you hold the gas down. I don't have an
> oscilloscope,
> > > but
> > > > my multimeter showed a constant 14V at the fuel injector, so it
should
> > be
> > > > injecting fuel. I called the local dodge dealer, and the technician
> > said
> > > it
> > > > sounded like the fuel pressure regulator. I guess I'll replace that
> > > tonight
> > > > and see if that fixes it.
> > > > Any other suggestions on what it could be?
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Wes
> > > >
> > > > "aarcuda69062" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > In article >,
> > > > > (Faulguys) wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Alright - here's an update. We checked the resistance to the
ECM
> > from
> > > > the
> > > > > > speed sensor, TPS, AIS, and fuel injector cap. The only thing
> with
> > a
> > > > > > noticeable resistance was the ground from the fuel injector cap,
> > which
> > > > read
> > > > > > between 9 and 10 ohms. I was able to keep the car idling using
> > > starting
> > > > > > fluid.
> > > > > > While it was idling, the hot wire going to the fuel injector
cap
> > was
> > > > reading
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > steady 14V.
> > > > > > From this info, I have a few questions.
> > > > > > 1. I assume I should replace the ground wire from the fuel
> injector
> > > > cap - 9
> > > > > > ohms is way too high.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is no ground from the fuel injector.
> > > > > One terminal of the injector is fed constant12 volts (14ish with
> > > > > engine running), the other terminal is pulled to ground thru the
> > > > > ECM.
> > > > > 9 ohms is meaningless, a voltage drop would be a more meaningful
> > > > > measurement. Tough to do without an oscilloscope though...
> > > > >
> > > > > > 2. Is the 14V for the injector cap within reason?
> > > > >
> > > > > 14 volts is nominal when the engine is running and the alternator
> > > > > is functioning correctly.
> > > > >
> > > > > > 3. Is there anything else it could be besides the fuel pressure
> or
> > > the
> > > > > > injector itself? I'm checking to see if I can get my hands on a
> > fuel
> > > > > > pressure
> > > > > > guage tonight.
> > > > >
> > > > > You haven't checked fuel pressure and volume yet?
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

The spark became less frequent as the car died, but it kept sparking until
it was dead. I assumed the spark was slowing down because the car was dying
(since it wasn't getting gas). There was no fault code for the fuel
injector - just the TPS and the Speed Distance sensor. I ended up replacing
the TPS because of the fault code, but then I went back and tested the
original and it tested fine. I also tested the speed\distance sensor and it
tested OK (8 spots of 8 ohms and infinity between). After I disconnected
and reconnected the battery, I have yet to come up with a fault code besides
12 and 55. If the fuel injector is bad, how could it inject while cranking
and when you first press the gas pedal?
Wes

"maxpower" > wrote in message
...
> Assuming that you are not losing spark, the fuel pressure is maintaining
14
> psi........ then you may have a faulty fuel injector, was there an
injector
> circuit fault found at one time, i think it would be a code 26 but not
sure?
> "Wes Faul" > wrote in message
> ...
> > The car starts, but immediately dies if I don't keep pumping the gas. I
> > noticed something else last night. The engine seems to bog down for a
> > fraction of a second when the gas is first injected. If I remember
> > correctly, it didn't accelerate until the gas was no longer being
> injected.
> > Then it dies if I don't pump the gas again. No dark smoke like it's too
> > rich.
> > Thanks
> > Wes
> >
> > "maxpower" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > ok first of all you only have 3 seconds of spark and fuel, if the
engine
> > > does not start within that time frame it shuts both off untill
restarted
> > > again,second, if you push on the gas pedal while cranking the engine,
> this
> > > could cut the fuel off if you pump it., it sounds as if you have fuel
> > > pressure and the regulator is doing its job properly.If you see fuel
> > > spraying as you crank it and it does not start you have some other
> > problem,
> > > if you have spark and fuel, you need to check the timing belt for
proper
> > > settings, If you e mail me back i wont get your message for awhile, i
> just
> > > read the ones you sent me a few days ago, post here and i will try to
> help
> > > you out, o yes, if you keep trying to start the engine, the injectors
> > spray
> > > fuel in the cylinders, this could also cause a flooded condition and
> make
> > > the engine a no start
> > > "Wes Faul" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Is there a way to test the fuel pressure regulator? When I tested
the
> > > fuel
> > > > pressure, I pinched off the return line, and the pressure (on the
> > intake)
> > > > did increase.
> > > > Wes
> > > >
> > > > "Wes Faul" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > Alright - I took a look at it again last night. Fuel Pressure was
> > > reading
> > > > a
> > > > > steady ~14 PSI which should be fine (14.5 is what the manual
said).
> I
> > > > > looked down the throttle body while my brother cranked it over
last
> > > night
> > > > > and I think I found the problem. Fuel is injected when it's
> cranking
> > > and
> > > > > when you first step on the gas pedal. It does NOT continue to
> inject
> > > when
> > > > > it idles or while you hold the gas down. I don't have an
> > oscilloscope,
> > > > but
> > > > > my multimeter showed a constant 14V at the fuel injector, so it
> should
> > > be
> > > > > injecting fuel. I called the local dodge dealer, and the
technician
> > > said
> > > > it
> > > > > sounded like the fuel pressure regulator. I guess I'll replace
that
> > > > tonight
> > > > > and see if that fixes it.
> > > > > Any other suggestions on what it could be?
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Wes
> > > > >
> > > > > "aarcuda69062" > wrote in message
> > > > >
...
> > > > > > In article >,
> > > > > > (Faulguys) wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Alright - here's an update. We checked the resistance to the
> ECM
> > > from
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > speed sensor, TPS, AIS, and fuel injector cap. The only thing
> > with
> > > a
> > > > > > > noticeable resistance was the ground from the fuel injector
cap,
> > > which
> > > > > read
> > > > > > > between 9 and 10 ohms. I was able to keep the car idling
using
> > > > starting
> > > > > > > fluid.
> > > > > > > While it was idling, the hot wire going to the fuel injector
> cap
> > > was
> > > > > reading
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > steady 14V.
> > > > > > > From this info, I have a few questions.
> > > > > > > 1. I assume I should replace the ground wire from the fuel
> > injector
> > > > > cap - 9
> > > > > > > ohms is way too high.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is no ground from the fuel injector.
> > > > > > One terminal of the injector is fed constant12 volts (14ish with
> > > > > > engine running), the other terminal is pulled to ground thru the
> > > > > > ECM.
> > > > > > 9 ohms is meaningless, a voltage drop would be a more meaningful
> > > > > > measurement. Tough to do without an oscilloscope though...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2. Is the 14V for the injector cap within reason?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 14 volts is nominal when the engine is running and the
alternator
> > > > > > is functioning correctly.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > 3. Is there anything else it could be besides the fuel
pressure
> > or
> > > > the
> > > > > > > injector itself? I'm checking to see if I can get my hands on
a
> > > fuel
> > > > > > > pressure
> > > > > > > guage tonight.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You haven't checked fuel pressure and volume yet?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

The spark became less frequent as the car died, but it kept sparking until
it was dead. I assumed the spark was slowing down because the car was dying
(since it wasn't getting gas). There was no fault code for the fuel
injector - just the TPS and the Speed Distance sensor. I ended up replacing
the TPS because of the fault code, but then I went back and tested the
original and it tested fine. I also tested the speed\distance sensor and it
tested OK (8 spots of 8 ohms and infinity between). After I disconnected
and reconnected the battery, I have yet to come up with a fault code besides
12 and 55. If the fuel injector is bad, how could it inject while cranking
and when you first press the gas pedal?
Wes

"maxpower" > wrote in message
...
> Assuming that you are not losing spark, the fuel pressure is maintaining
14
> psi........ then you may have a faulty fuel injector, was there an
injector
> circuit fault found at one time, i think it would be a code 26 but not
sure?
> "Wes Faul" > wrote in message
> ...
> > The car starts, but immediately dies if I don't keep pumping the gas. I
> > noticed something else last night. The engine seems to bog down for a
> > fraction of a second when the gas is first injected. If I remember
> > correctly, it didn't accelerate until the gas was no longer being
> injected.
> > Then it dies if I don't pump the gas again. No dark smoke like it's too
> > rich.
> > Thanks
> > Wes
> >
> > "maxpower" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > ok first of all you only have 3 seconds of spark and fuel, if the
engine
> > > does not start within that time frame it shuts both off untill
restarted
> > > again,second, if you push on the gas pedal while cranking the engine,
> this
> > > could cut the fuel off if you pump it., it sounds as if you have fuel
> > > pressure and the regulator is doing its job properly.If you see fuel
> > > spraying as you crank it and it does not start you have some other
> > problem,
> > > if you have spark and fuel, you need to check the timing belt for
proper
> > > settings, If you e mail me back i wont get your message for awhile, i
> just
> > > read the ones you sent me a few days ago, post here and i will try to
> help
> > > you out, o yes, if you keep trying to start the engine, the injectors
> > spray
> > > fuel in the cylinders, this could also cause a flooded condition and
> make
> > > the engine a no start
> > > "Wes Faul" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Is there a way to test the fuel pressure regulator? When I tested
the
> > > fuel
> > > > pressure, I pinched off the return line, and the pressure (on the
> > intake)
> > > > did increase.
> > > > Wes
> > > >
> > > > "Wes Faul" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > Alright - I took a look at it again last night. Fuel Pressure was
> > > reading
> > > > a
> > > > > steady ~14 PSI which should be fine (14.5 is what the manual
said).
> I
> > > > > looked down the throttle body while my brother cranked it over
last
> > > night
> > > > > and I think I found the problem. Fuel is injected when it's
> cranking
> > > and
> > > > > when you first step on the gas pedal. It does NOT continue to
> inject
> > > when
> > > > > it idles or while you hold the gas down. I don't have an
> > oscilloscope,
> > > > but
> > > > > my multimeter showed a constant 14V at the fuel injector, so it
> should
> > > be
> > > > > injecting fuel. I called the local dodge dealer, and the
technician
> > > said
> > > > it
> > > > > sounded like the fuel pressure regulator. I guess I'll replace
that
> > > > tonight
> > > > > and see if that fixes it.
> > > > > Any other suggestions on what it could be?
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Wes
> > > > >
> > > > > "aarcuda69062" > wrote in message
> > > > >
...
> > > > > > In article >,
> > > > > > (Faulguys) wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Alright - here's an update. We checked the resistance to the
> ECM
> > > from
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > speed sensor, TPS, AIS, and fuel injector cap. The only thing
> > with
> > > a
> > > > > > > noticeable resistance was the ground from the fuel injector
cap,
> > > which
> > > > > read
> > > > > > > between 9 and 10 ohms. I was able to keep the car idling
using
> > > > starting
> > > > > > > fluid.
> > > > > > > While it was idling, the hot wire going to the fuel injector
> cap
> > > was
> > > > > reading
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > steady 14V.
> > > > > > > From this info, I have a few questions.
> > > > > > > 1. I assume I should replace the ground wire from the fuel
> > injector
> > > > > cap - 9
> > > > > > > ohms is way too high.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is no ground from the fuel injector.
> > > > > > One terminal of the injector is fed constant12 volts (14ish with
> > > > > > engine running), the other terminal is pulled to ground thru the
> > > > > > ECM.
> > > > > > 9 ohms is meaningless, a voltage drop would be a more meaningful
> > > > > > measurement. Tough to do without an oscilloscope though...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2. Is the 14V for the injector cap within reason?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 14 volts is nominal when the engine is running and the
alternator
> > > > > > is functioning correctly.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > 3. Is there anything else it could be besides the fuel
pressure
> > or
> > > > the
> > > > > > > injector itself? I'm checking to see if I can get my hands on
a
> > > fuel
> > > > > > > pressure
> > > > > > > guage tonight.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You haven't checked fuel pressure and volume yet?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

On Tue, 7 Dec 2004, Wes Faul wrote:

> Alright - I took a look at it again last night. Fuel Pressure was
> reading a steady ~14 PSI which should be fine (14.5 is what the manual
> said). I looked down the throttle body while my brother cranked it over
> last night and I think I found the problem. Fuel is injected when it's
> cranking and when you first step on the gas pedal. It does NOT continue
> to inject when it idles or while you hold the gas down.

Well, yeah, that would be a definite problem...how did you determine this?
If it was idling, it was running. If it was running, the injector was
injecting fuel.

> I don't have an oscilloscope, but my multimeter showed a constant 14V at
> the fuel injector, so it should be injecting fuel.

A digital multimeter wouldn't be fast enough to keep up with the voltage
pulses to the injector, so we can't really draw too much of a conclusion
from this.

> I called the local dodge dealer, and the technician said it sounded like
> the fuel pressure regulator.

No, if you were reading ~14 pounds' pressure at the fuel rail near the
injector, it's not the fuel pressure regulator. The regulator is not
turned on and off; it works or it doesn't. If it sticks open, there'll be
very low (or no) fuel pressure when cranking OR running. If it sticks
closed, there'll be very high fuel pressure when cranking OR running. If
it works, there'll be 14.5psi or so when cranking OR running.

I think you have an electrical problem. Somehow, that injector isn't being
given the right signals.

Another hint: Dealer techs absolutely hate it when do-it-yerselfers call
up and ask for diagnostic help over the phone. Many of them are not above
sending such callers on wild goose chases, and I'm not entirely sure I can
blame them, for such calls amount to unfair demands that they work for
$0.00/hr.

DS

On Tue, 7 Dec 2004, Wes Faul wrote:

> Alright - I took a look at it again last night. Fuel Pressure was
> reading a steady ~14 PSI which should be fine (14.5 is what the manual
> said). I looked down the throttle body while my brother cranked it over
> last night and I think I found the problem. Fuel is injected when it's
> cranking and when you first step on the gas pedal. It does NOT continue
> to inject when it idles or while you hold the gas down.

Well, yeah, that would be a definite problem...how did you determine this?
If it was idling, it was running. If it was running, the injector was
injecting fuel.

> I don't have an oscilloscope, but my multimeter showed a constant 14V at
> the fuel injector, so it should be injecting fuel.

A digital multimeter wouldn't be fast enough to keep up with the voltage
pulses to the injector, so we can't really draw too much of a conclusion
from this.

> I called the local dodge dealer, and the technician said it sounded like
> the fuel pressure regulator.

No, if you were reading ~14 pounds' pressure at the fuel rail near the
injector, it's not the fuel pressure regulator. The regulator is not
turned on and off; it works or it doesn't. If it sticks open, there'll be
very low (or no) fuel pressure when cranking OR running. If it sticks
closed, there'll be very high fuel pressure when cranking OR running. If
it works, there'll be 14.5psi or so when cranking OR running.

I think you have an electrical problem. Somehow, that injector isn't being
given the right signals.

Another hint: Dealer techs absolutely hate it when do-it-yerselfers call
up and ask for diagnostic help over the phone. Many of them are not above
sending such callers on wild goose chases, and I'm not entirely sure I can
blame them, for such calls amount to unfair demands that they work for
$0.00/hr.

DS

"Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
.umich.edu...
> On Tue, 7 Dec 2004, Wes Faul wrote:
>
> > Alright - I took a look at it again last night. Fuel Pressure was
> > reading a steady ~14 PSI which should be fine (14.5 is what the manual
> > said). I looked down the throttle body while my brother cranked it over
> > last night and I think I found the problem. Fuel is injected when it's
> > cranking and when you first step on the gas pedal. It does NOT continue
> > to inject when it idles or while you hold the gas down.
>
> Well, yeah, that would be a definite problem...how did you determine this?
> If it was idling, it was running. If it was running, the injector was
> injecting fuel.
>

OK, it wasn't injecting while it's supposed to be idling. It stops
injecting when you stop cranking. It fires, then decelerates until it dies.
Likewise, it injects when I first press on the gas pedal (the engine
actually bogs down for a second while it's injecting), then it accelereates
for a second, then it decelerates until it dies.

> > I don't have an oscilloscope, but my multimeter showed a constant 14V at
> > the fuel injector, so it should be injecting fuel.
>
> A digital multimeter wouldn't be fast enough to keep up with the voltage
> pulses to the injector, so we can't really draw too much of a conclusion
> from this.
>
> > I called the local dodge dealer, and the technician said it sounded like
> > the fuel pressure regulator.
>
> No, if you were reading ~14 pounds' pressure at the fuel rail near the
> injector, it's not the fuel pressure regulator. The regulator is not
> turned on and off; it works or it doesn't. If it sticks open, there'll be
> very low (or no) fuel pressure when cranking OR running. If it sticks
> closed, there'll be very high fuel pressure when cranking OR running. If
> it works, there'll be 14.5psi or so when cranking OR running.
>
> I think you have an electrical problem. Somehow, that injector isn't being
> given the right signals.

I've checked the TPS, replaced the AIS, checked the Speed/Distance sensor.
What other electrical sensors/relays, etc... do I need to check? The ASD
relay shuts off the ignition, doesn't it? So it shouldn't be that.

When depressurizing the fuel system, the chiltons says to ground one
terminal of the fuel injector, and touch the other terminal to the positive
battery terminal. I assume that's just pumping out any gas that's in there.
Can I bypass the computer for the fuel injector and do the same thing and
make sure it sprays every time the circuit is completed? That should tell
me if the injector's OK, shouldn't it?

Thanks for the info,
Wes

"Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
.umich.edu...
> On Tue, 7 Dec 2004, Wes Faul wrote:
>
> > Alright - I took a look at it again last night. Fuel Pressure was
> > reading a steady ~14 PSI which should be fine (14.5 is what the manual
> > said). I looked down the throttle body while my brother cranked it over
> > last night and I think I found the problem. Fuel is injected when it's
> > cranking and when you first step on the gas pedal. It does NOT continue
> > to inject when it idles or while you hold the gas down.
>
> Well, yeah, that would be a definite problem...how did you determine this?
> If it was idling, it was running. If it was running, the injector was
> injecting fuel.
>

OK, it wasn't injecting while it's supposed to be idling. It stops
injecting when you stop cranking. It fires, then decelerates until it dies.
Likewise, it injects when I first press on the gas pedal (the engine
actually bogs down for a second while it's injecting), then it accelereates
for a second, then it decelerates until it dies.

> > I don't have an oscilloscope, but my multimeter showed a constant 14V at
> > the fuel injector, so it should be injecting fuel.
>
> A digital multimeter wouldn't be fast enough to keep up with the voltage
> pulses to the injector, so we can't really draw too much of a conclusion
> from this.
>
> > I called the local dodge dealer, and the technician said it sounded like
> > the fuel pressure regulator.
>
> No, if you were reading ~14 pounds' pressure at the fuel rail near the
> injector, it's not the fuel pressure regulator. The regulator is not
> turned on and off; it works or it doesn't. If it sticks open, there'll be
> very low (or no) fuel pressure when cranking OR running. If it sticks
> closed, there'll be very high fuel pressure when cranking OR running. If
> it works, there'll be 14.5psi or so when cranking OR running.
>
> I think you have an electrical problem. Somehow, that injector isn't being
> given the right signals.

I've checked the TPS, replaced the AIS, checked the Speed/Distance sensor.
What other electrical sensors/relays, etc... do I need to check? The ASD
relay shuts off the ignition, doesn't it? So it shouldn't be that.

When depressurizing the fuel system, the chiltons says to ground one
terminal of the fuel injector, and touch the other terminal to the positive
battery terminal. I assume that's just pumping out any gas that's in there.
Can I bypass the computer for the fuel injector and do the same thing and
make sure it sprays every time the circuit is completed? That should tell
me if the injector's OK, shouldn't it?

Thanks for the info,
Wes

If the fuel injector is bad, how could it inject while cranking
and when you first press the gas pedal?
just because you see a spray does not mean it is enough to keep the engine
running, maybe the pintel is not opening enough to let fuel out, i cant
answer that, if you had some gum cutter or similar fluid, would you be able
to keep the engine running that way? and do you have a fuel pressure gauge
connected while it is running to verify 14 psi while it is dying?
"Wes Faul" > wrote in message
...
> The spark became less frequent as the car died, but it kept sparking until
> it was dead. I assumed the spark was slowing down because the car was
dying
> (since it wasn't getting gas). There was no fault code for the fuel
> injector - just the TPS and the Speed Distance sensor. I ended up
replacing
> the TPS because of the fault code, but then I went back and tested the
> original and it tested fine. I also tested the speed\distance sensor and
it
> tested OK (8 spots of 8 ohms and infinity between). After I disconnected
> and reconnected the battery, I have yet to come up with a fault code
besides
> 12 and 55. If the fuel injector is bad, how could it inject while
cranking
> and when you first press the gas pedal?
> Wes
>
> "maxpower" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Assuming that you are not losing spark, the fuel pressure is maintaining
> 14
> > psi........ then you may have a faulty fuel injector, was there an
> injector
> > circuit fault found at one time, i think it would be a code 26 but not
> sure?
> > "Wes Faul" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > The car starts, but immediately dies if I don't keep pumping the gas.
I
> > > noticed something else last night. The engine seems to bog down for a
> > > fraction of a second when the gas is first injected. If I remember
> > > correctly, it didn't accelerate until the gas was no longer being
> > injected.
> > > Then it dies if I don't pump the gas again. No dark smoke like it's
too
> > > rich.
> > > Thanks
> > > Wes
> > >
> > > "maxpower" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > ok first of all you only have 3 seconds of spark and fuel, if the
> engine
> > > > does not start within that time frame it shuts both off untill
> restarted
> > > > again,second, if you push on the gas pedal while cranking the
engine,
> > this
> > > > could cut the fuel off if you pump it., it sounds as if you have
fuel
> > > > pressure and the regulator is doing its job properly.If you see fuel
> > > > spraying as you crank it and it does not start you have some other
> > > problem,
> > > > if you have spark and fuel, you need to check the timing belt for
> proper
> > > > settings, If you e mail me back i wont get your message for awhile,
i
> > just
> > > > read the ones you sent me a few days ago, post here and i will try
to
> > help
> > > > you out, o yes, if you keep trying to start the engine, the
injectors
> > > spray
> > > > fuel in the cylinders, this could also cause a flooded condition and
> > make
> > > > the engine a no start
> > > > "Wes Faul" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > Is there a way to test the fuel pressure regulator? When I tested
> the
> > > > fuel
> > > > > pressure, I pinched off the return line, and the pressure (on the
> > > intake)
> > > > > did increase.
> > > > > Wes
> > > > >
> > > > > "Wes Faul" > wrote in message
> > > > > ...
> > > > > > Alright - I took a look at it again last night. Fuel Pressure
was
> > > > reading
> > > > > a
> > > > > > steady ~14 PSI which should be fine (14.5 is what the manual
> said).
> > I
> > > > > > looked down the throttle body while my brother cranked it over
> last
> > > > night
> > > > > > and I think I found the problem. Fuel is injected when it's
> > cranking
> > > > and
> > > > > > when you first step on the gas pedal. It does NOT continue to
> > inject
> > > > when
> > > > > > it idles or while you hold the gas down. I don't have an
> > > oscilloscope,
> > > > > but
> > > > > > my multimeter showed a constant 14V at the fuel injector, so it
> > should
> > > > be
> > > > > > injecting fuel. I called the local dodge dealer, and the
> technician
> > > > said
> > > > > it
> > > > > > sounded like the fuel pressure regulator. I guess I'll replace
> that
> > > > > tonight
> > > > > > and see if that fixes it.
> > > > > > Any other suggestions on what it could be?
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Wes
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "aarcuda69062" > wrote in message
> > > > > >
> ...
> > > > > > > In article >,
> > > > > > > (Faulguys) wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Alright - here's an update. We checked the resistance to
the
> > ECM
> > > > from
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > speed sensor, TPS, AIS, and fuel injector cap. The only
thing
> > > with
> > > > a
> > > > > > > > noticeable resistance was the ground from the fuel injector
> cap,
> > > > which
> > > > > > read
> > > > > > > > between 9 and 10 ohms. I was able to keep the car idling
> using
> > > > > starting
> > > > > > > > fluid.
> > > > > > > > While it was idling, the hot wire going to the fuel
injector
> > cap
> > > > was
> > > > > > reading
> > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > steady 14V.
> > > > > > > > From this info, I have a few questions.
> > > > > > > > 1. I assume I should replace the ground wire from the fuel
> > > injector
> > > > > > cap - 9
> > > > > > > > ohms is way too high.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There is no ground from the fuel injector.
> > > > > > > One terminal of the injector is fed constant12 volts (14ish
with
> > > > > > > engine running), the other terminal is pulled to ground thru
the
> > > > > > > ECM.
> > > > > > > 9 ohms is meaningless, a voltage drop would be a more
meaningful
> > > > > > > measurement. Tough to do without an oscilloscope though...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 2. Is the 14V for the injector cap within reason?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 14 volts is nominal when the engine is running and the
> alternator
> > > > > > > is functioning correctly.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 3. Is there anything else it could be besides the fuel
> pressure
> > > or
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > injector itself? I'm checking to see if I can get my hands
on
> a
> > > > fuel
> > > > > > > > pressure
> > > > > > > > guage tonight.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You haven't checked fuel pressure and volume yet?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>