Arrite ... alignment & tires

Just a quick one mate,
I saw your running your Toyo's at 32 psi, with my 14" wheels this feels
crap,
You might want to try as low as 28 see how that feels, and then go up a psi
from there, I usually pump my tires up to 30psi at the garage then drop the
pressures at home using my gauge, as the petrol stations can be out as much
as 5psi!!!!


"josh" > wrote in message
news:1114178566.273248@sj-nntpcache-5...
> Thanks you guys (Lanny, Leon in particular) for suggestions a couple of
> months ago about my irregular tire wear and alignment.
>
> Here's a follow-up.
>
> Last tires were Falken Ziex ZE512 185/60-14's and I had characterized
> these tires as "Godawful". Rear tires were worn evenly, but heavily
> (about 12K miles on the tires, past the wear indicators), rear left worn
> much more than the right, front tires worn severely on the outside edges
> and front right tire worn on the inside edge as well, but nearly zero wear
> in the center. I didn't rotate the tires ever mostly because I wanted
> them to wear out quick so I would have an excuse for some new ones.
>
> Handling was good in terms of grip but easily understeered mostly in right
> turns and had snap oversteer either on throttle or lift throttle. In a
> steady corner it would grip fine and drift controllably as long as you
> didn't get iffy with the gas pedal. Turn in was terrible and it felt like
> marshmallow tires.
>
> Turns out it probably wasn't the tires' fault completely.
>
> New tires put on yesterday, Toyo Proxes T1-S 195/55-14, adjusted to 32psi.
>
> When I left the tire shop, the car felt awful. Very mushy rear end and
> the turn in was WORSE than with the Falken tires. I was about to get
> really really mad. $400 worth of tires, NO IMPROVEMENT over the crap
> tires in turn in or response!!! Cornering grip is awesome though. But it
> was slow to react. Like you'd turn in and it would initially understeer
> and you'd feel the rear end wallow around and settle, then once into the
> corner it would begin to tighten up and grip like mad. Basically initial
> understeer and turning to grip inside the corner, eventually oversteering
> slightly if you didn't correct. Does that make sense? But I did do a
> 90-degree turn onto a cross street at 40+mph without a squawk.
>
> OK, so this morning I went for the alignment. Anyone want to make bets on
> what the original specs were?
>
> Left Right
> Front Camber -0.7 -1.2
> Caster 5.0 4.8
> Toe 0.14 OUT 0.14 OUT
>
> Rear Camber -0.9 -1.8
> Toe 0.1 IN 0.05 IN
>
> Ha... they said "it's in spec", where spec = all of my specs +/- one
> whole degree, and then began to lower the car from the machine. I pitched
> a fit, insisted that I had arranged for a custom-spec alignment and I
> wasn't leaving until I had one and they sent out a different tech who did
> it right:
>
> Left Right
> Front Camber -0.6 -1.2 MAXED NEG. BOTH SIDES
> Caster 5.0 4.8
> Toe 0.07 IN 0.05 IN
>
> Rear Camber -1.7 -1.7
> Toe 0.06 IN 0.07 IN
>
> This was with ballast in the driver's seat.
>
> OK, so now... ahh this is much better!! No real report yet on fast
> cornering but I can tell you the turn in is worlds better and it doesn't
> have that pillowy feel in the rear end any more. Seems to steer easier
> and bite much quicker in low speed turns. I think the kicker was toe in
> on the front!!
>
> So I'm a happy Miata owner again. Any comments on my final alignment
> specs?
>
> Thanks again for the advice.
>
> Oh, and FWIW Lanny, I took your alignment specs with me and boy did they
> argue with me about it. The tech (of course) claimed to be an expert on
> Miata alignments and blah blah race car blah blah autocross blah blah
> you're not going to like the way this car drives, you're going to eat
> tires, you don't know what you're doing, I'll do it your way but it's your
> funeral kind of thing. I was steadfast and reminded them I was the
> customer and they finally did it right, but not without plenty of
> commentary. Anyone know of a shop in Austin who will just do it right
> without all the fuss?
>
> See ya-

I have to disagree with Leon on the Sway bars,

It really depends on how you drive, what springs and shocks you have fitted
and the type of roads you drive on.

From my experience I have found it better to get a ride quality (firmness)
that you are happy day to day with, by swapping/adjusting your springs and
shocks, then if you still feel you are getting too much body roll on the
VAST MAJORITY of corners up the roll bar size.

But please take into consideration that upping your sway bar size will
completely knacker up your handling on bumpy roads.

Cheers Mark.


"Leon van Dommelen" > wrote in message
...
> josh > wrote:
>
>>Thanks you guys (Lanny, Leon in particular) for suggestions a couple of
>>months ago about my irregular tire wear and alignment.
>>
>>Here's a follow-up.
>>
>>Last tires were Falken Ziex ZE512 185/60-14's and I had characterized
>>these
>>tires as "Godawful". Rear tires were worn evenly, but heavily (about 12K
>>miles on the tires, past the wear indicators), rear left worn much more
>>than
>>the right, front tires worn severely on the outside edges and front right
>>tire worn on the inside edge as well, but nearly zero wear in the center.
>>I
>>didn't rotate the tires ever mostly because I wanted them to wear out
>>quick
>>so I would have an excuse for some new ones.
>>
>>Handling was good in terms of grip but easily understeered mostly in right
>>turns and had snap oversteer either on throttle or lift throttle. In a
>>steady corner it would grip fine and drift controllably as long as you
>>didn't get iffy with the gas pedal. Turn in was terrible and it felt like
>>marshmallow tires.
>>
>>Turns out it probably wasn't the tires' fault completely.
>>
>>New tires put on yesterday, Toyo Proxes T1-S 195/55-14, adjusted to 32psi.
>>
>>When I left the tire shop, the car felt awful. Very mushy rear end and
>>the
>
> Have you upgraded the sway bars on your Miata? If not, off to
> racingbeat.com you go.
>
>>turn in was WORSE than with the Falken tires. I was about to get really
>>really mad. $400 worth of tires, NO IMPROVEMENT over the crap tires in
>>turn
>>in or response!!! Cornering grip is awesome though. But it was slow to
>>react. Like you'd turn in and it would initially understeer and you'd
>>feel
>>the rear end wallow around and settle, then once into the corner it would
>>begin to tighten up and grip like mad. Basically initial understeer and
>>turning to grip inside the corner, eventually oversteering slightly if you
>>didn't correct. Does that make sense? But I did do a 90-degree turn onto
>>a
>>cross street at 40+mph without a squawk.
>>
>>OK, so this morning I went for the alignment. Anyone want to make bets on
>>what the original specs were?
>>
>> Left Right
>>Front Camber -0.7 -1.2
>> Caster 5.0 4.8
>> Toe 0.14 OUT 0.14 OUT
>>
>>Rear Camber -0.9 -1.8
>> Toe 0.1 IN 0.05 IN
>>
>>Ha... they said "it's in spec",
>
> It is *not* in spec, at least not for my 96. 0.14" toe out is
> *way* out of the Mazda spec, and also exceeds the Miq Millman
> specs by more than a factor 2.
>
>> where spec = all of my specs +/- one whole
>>degree, and then began to lower the car from the machine. I pitched a
>>fit,
>>insisted that I had arranged for a custom-spec alignment and I wasn't
>>leaving until I had one and they sent out a different tech who did it
>>right:
>>
>> Left Right
>>Front Camber -0.6 -1.2 MAXED NEG. BOTH SIDES
>> Caster 5.0 4.8
>> Toe 0.07 IN 0.05 IN
>>
>>Rear Camber -1.7 -1.7
>
> I agree with Lanny, the left camber difference is too big.
>
>> Toe 0.06 IN 0.07 IN
>>
>>This was with ballast in the driver's seat.
>>
>>OK, so now... ahh this is much better!! No real report yet on fast
>>cornering but I can tell you the turn in is worlds better and it doesn't
>>have that pillowy feel in the rear end any more. Seems to steer easier
>>and
>>bite much quicker in low speed turns. I think the kicker was toe in on
>>the
>>
>>front!!
>>
>>So I'm a happy Miata owner again. Any comments on my final alignment
>>specs?
>>
>>Thanks again for the advice.
>>
>>Oh, and FWIW Lanny, I took your alignment specs with me and boy did they
>>argue with me about it. The tech (of course) claimed to be an expert on
>>Miata alignments and blah blah race car blah blah autocross blah blah
>>you're
>>not going to like the way this car drives, you're going to eat tires, you
>>don't know what you're doing, I'll do it your way but it's your funeral
>>kind
>>of thing. I was steadfast and reminded them I was the customer and they
>>finally did it right, but not without plenty of commentary.
>
> In Tallahassee, they had me sign a warranty waiver on an even
> milder one... ;(
>
>> Anyone know of
>>a shop in Austin who will just do it right without all the fuss?
>
> Ask your local SCCA Solo II autocross club. In the sort of places
> we live, you can find shops that do it without giving you a hassle
> if you do not give them a hassle about doing it right.
>
> Leon
>
> --
> Leon van Dommelen Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .)
> http://www.dommelen.net/miata
> EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen)

Unless you have shocks that have adjustable ride height.
Raising and lowering the rear in comparison to the front will affect the
front caster.


"Lanny Chambers" > wrote in message
...
> In article <1114194948.233790@sj-nntpcache-5>, josh >
> wrote:
>
>> > I would have sacrificed some caster--as much as 2 degrees--to get
>> > camber
>> > on both sides matched at a minimum of -1.0 degrees. Expect some
>> > understeer in right turns.
>>
>> Is this something I can set in my garage?
>
> Nope.
>
> ---
> Lanny Chambers
> '94C, St. Louis
> http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html

gixer wrote:
> Just a quick one mate,
> I saw your running your Toyo's at 32 psi, with my 14" wheels this feels
> crap,
> You might want to try as low as 28 see how that feels, and then go up a psi
> from there,

Alright I'll give that a try.

FWIW the car feels great!! But the steering wheel is not straight so I'm
taking it back to get them to redo it... will see if they'll monkey with the
caster & camber on the front to get it better matched side to side while
it's up... 6 month warranty on alignment!

I can't imagine why Mazda didn't put these tires on the car from the factory.

I liked the responsiveness of the Pirelli P7000's I had two sets ago better,
but the grip of the T1-S's is nothing short of awesome... plus they just
look "beefy" on the 14" wheels... it's worth it for the appearance of those
big tires alone.

The only problem I have encountered so far with the T1-S's I've got fitted
is here in Greece, with its generally poor road surfaces, is that when they
do eventually let go the go you've got to be pretty quick to catch them.
But last weekend I did a track day, and the tires were nothing short of
perfect, they were controllable when they did eventually let go,
Plus the outright grip was nothing short of scary,
I did find a major improvement going up 28psi to 30psi though, the tires
seemed to turn in a little quicker, although the outright grip felt slightly
less than at 28, they felt more controllable, but we are talking extremely
small margins here, and like I said this was the track, for the road I
dropped down to 28 again.

Cheers Mark.


"josh" > wrote in message
news:1114519783.329386@sj-nntpcache-5...
> gixer wrote:
>> Just a quick one mate,
>> I saw your running your Toyo's at 32 psi, with my 14" wheels this feels
>> crap,
>> You might want to try as low as 28 see how that feels, and then go up a
>> psi from there,
>
> Alright I'll give that a try.
>
> FWIW the car feels great!! But the steering wheel is not straight so I'm
> taking it back to get them to redo it... will see if they'll monkey with
> the caster & camber on the front to get it better matched side to side
> while it's up... 6 month warranty on alignment!
>
> I can't imagine why Mazda didn't put these tires on the car from the
> factory.
>
> I liked the responsiveness of the Pirelli P7000's I had two sets ago
> better, but the grip of the T1-S's is nothing short of awesome... plus
> they just look "beefy" on the 14" wheels... it's worth it for the
> appearance of those big tires alone.

In article >, "gixer" >
wrote:

> I did find a major improvement going up 28psi to 30psi though, the tires
> seemed to turn in a little quicker, although the outright grip felt slightly
> less than at 28, they felt more controllable

The T1-S typically starts to tramline at about 12k miles. I'm trying 30
psi, and it does reduce tramlining quite a bit, but I don't like the
feel--they seem to slip and grab, slip and grab, very small but
noticeable "nibbling" behavior. They're more stable at 28-29; turn in is
simply not a concern on public roads. Mine are almost three years old,
so they don't grip like they used to anyway. Too much ozone, too many
heat cycles, whatever. I'm waiting for the T1-R...

---
Lanny Chambers
'94C, St. Louis
http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html

gixer wrote:
> I have to disagree with Leon on the Sway bars,
>
> It really depends on how you drive, what springs and shocks you have fitted
> and the type of roads you drive on.
>
> From my experience I have found it better to get a ride quality (firmness)
> that you are happy day to day with, by swapping/adjusting your springs and
> shocks, then if you still feel you are getting too much body roll on the
> VAST MAJORITY of corners up the roll bar size.

Yeah I guess I sort of agree.

I would strongly prefer stiffer springs in my car, but my driveway is very
steep and I already drag the tail pipe and chin of the car on the driveway
on entry and exit, so I can't tolerate anything that lowers the ride height.
So that means I have to go with coil-over with adjustable ride height if I
want to swap springs, or fully-custom springs. So... I guess that's to say,
if I could have H&R Race springs without changing the ride height, I would
have been driving with them for the past 5 years.

That said, if I want to stiffen the ride, one way to do it, at least in
corners, without changing ride height, is to change the sway bars. I have
never been that much of a fan of the way a car drives with stiff sway bars
just because I think it's a bit unnatural and just prefer rock-hard springs.

Anyway, it's about time for shocks so I need to sort this out one way or the
other in the next 6-12 months.

josh wrote:
> gixer wrote:
>
>> Just a quick one mate,
>> I saw your running your Toyo's at 32 psi, with my 14" wheels this
>> feels crap,
>> You might want to try as low as 28 see how that feels, and then go up
>> a psi from there,
>
>
> Alright I'll give that a try.

I put the tires at 28 psi and it feels very different:

#1 there is a lot less absolute grip compared with 32psi
#2 the car feels more "mushy"
#3 the car is easier to modulate while it's slipping... i.e. you can get a
4-wheel drift going and control it with ease with 28psi

with 32psi it rides a bit firmer and turn-in is sharper, absolute grip is
much better, but the car's a lot more touchy once it's slipping and much
more quickly turns to out-of-control.

Probably tomorrow I'll pump them back to 30psi.

I bought the FM GC kit earlier in the year, as i have a simular problem to
you, plus the added pain in the arse of crap roads here, I can't recomend
the GC kit highly enough, it really suits my style of driving/the roads
here/the setup i have.
It took me a few weeks messing about, to get the height how i want it, but
its exactly spot on now, the the point where if i put my laptop bag in the
car before i exit the garage the chassis just clips the bump.

Knob on.


"josh" > wrote in message
news:1114630880.179133@sj-nntpcache-3...
> gixer wrote:
>> I have to disagree with Leon on the Sway bars,
>>
>> It really depends on how you drive, what springs and shocks you have
>> fitted and the type of roads you drive on.
>>
>> From my experience I have found it better to get a ride quality
>> (firmness) that you are happy day to day with, by swapping/adjusting your
>> springs and shocks, then if you still feel you are getting too much body
>> roll on the VAST MAJORITY of corners up the roll bar size.
>
> Yeah I guess I sort of agree.
>
> I would strongly prefer stiffer springs in my car, but my driveway is very
> steep and I already drag the tail pipe and chin of the car on the driveway
> on entry and exit, so I can't tolerate anything that lowers the ride
> height. So that means I have to go with coil-over with adjustable ride
> height if I want to swap springs, or fully-custom springs. So... I guess
> that's to say, if I could have H&R Race springs without changing the ride
> height, I would have been driving with them for the past 5 years.
>
> That said, if I want to stiffen the ride, one way to do it, at least in
> corners, without changing ride height, is to change the sway bars. I have
> never been that much of a fan of the way a car drives with stiff sway bars
> just because I think it's a bit unnatural and just prefer rock-hard
> springs.
>
> Anyway, it's about time for shocks so I need to sort this out one way or
> the other in the next 6-12 months.