Arrite ... alignment & tires

Thanks you guys (Lanny, Leon in particular) for suggestions a couple of
months ago about my irregular tire wear and alignment.

Here's a follow-up.

Last tires were Falken Ziex ZE512 185/60-14's and I had characterized these
tires as "Godawful". Rear tires were worn evenly, but heavily (about 12K
miles on the tires, past the wear indicators), rear left worn much more than
the right, front tires worn severely on the outside edges and front right
tire worn on the inside edge as well, but nearly zero wear in the center. I
didn't rotate the tires ever mostly because I wanted them to wear out quick
so I would have an excuse for some new ones.

Handling was good in terms of grip but easily understeered mostly in right
turns and had snap oversteer either on throttle or lift throttle. In a
steady corner it would grip fine and drift controllably as long as you
didn't get iffy with the gas pedal. Turn in was terrible and it felt like
marshmallow tires.

Turns out it probably wasn't the tires' fault completely.

New tires put on yesterday, Toyo Proxes T1-S 195/55-14, adjusted to 32psi.

When I left the tire shop, the car felt awful. Very mushy rear end and the
turn in was WORSE than with the Falken tires. I was about to get really
really mad. $400 worth of tires, NO IMPROVEMENT over the crap tires in turn
in or response!!! Cornering grip is awesome though. But it was slow to
react. Like you'd turn in and it would initially understeer and you'd feel
the rear end wallow around and settle, then once into the corner it would
begin to tighten up and grip like mad. Basically initial understeer and
turning to grip inside the corner, eventually oversteering slightly if you
didn't correct. Does that make sense? But I did do a 90-degree turn onto a
cross street at 40+mph without a squawk.

OK, so this morning I went for the alignment. Anyone want to make bets on
what the original specs were?

Left Right
Front Camber -0.7 -1.2
Caster 5.0 4.8
Toe 0.14 OUT 0.14 OUT

Rear Camber -0.9 -1.8
Toe 0.1 IN 0.05 IN

Ha... they said "it's in spec", where spec = all of my specs +/- one whole
degree, and then began to lower the car from the machine. I pitched a fit,
insisted that I had arranged for a custom-spec alignment and I wasn't
leaving until I had one and they sent out a different tech who did it right:

Left Right
Front Camber -0.6 -1.2 MAXED NEG. BOTH SIDES
Caster 5.0 4.8
Toe 0.07 IN 0.05 IN

Rear Camber -1.7 -1.7
Toe 0.06 IN 0.07 IN

This was with ballast in the driver's seat.

OK, so now... ahh this is much better!! No real report yet on fast
cornering but I can tell you the turn in is worlds better and it doesn't
have that pillowy feel in the rear end any more. Seems to steer easier and
bite much quicker in low speed turns. I think the kicker was toe in on the
front!!

So I'm a happy Miata owner again. Any comments on my final alignment specs?

Thanks again for the advice.

Oh, and FWIW Lanny, I took your alignment specs with me and boy did they
argue with me about it. The tech (of course) claimed to be an expert on
Miata alignments and blah blah race car blah blah autocross blah blah you're
not going to like the way this car drives, you're going to eat tires, you
don't know what you're doing, I'll do it your way but it's your funeral kind
of thing. I was steadfast and reminded them I was the customer and they
finally did it right, but not without plenty of commentary. Anyone know of
a shop in Austin who will just do it right without all the fuss?

See ya-

In article <1114178566.273248@sj-nntpcache-5>, josh >
wrote:

> Left Right
> Front Camber -0.6 -1.2 MAXED NEG. BOTH SIDES
> Caster 5.0 4.8

I would have sacrificed some caster--as much as 2 degrees--to get camber
on both sides matched at a minimum of -1.0 degrees. Expect some
understeer in right turns.

---
Lanny Chambers
'94C, St. Louis
http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html

Lanny Chambers wrote:
> In article <1114178566.273248@sj-nntpcache-5>, josh >
> wrote:
>
>
>> Left Right
>>Front Camber -0.6 -1.2 MAXED NEG. BOTH SIDES
>> Caster 5.0 4.8
>
>
> I would have sacrificed some caster--as much as 2 degrees--to get camber
> on both sides matched at a minimum of -1.0 degrees. Expect some
> understeer in right turns.
>
> ---

Is this something I can set in my garage?

In article <1114194948.233790@sj-nntpcache-5>, josh >
wrote:

> > I would have sacrificed some caster--as much as 2 degrees--to get camber
> > on both sides matched at a minimum of -1.0 degrees. Expect some
> > understeer in right turns.
>
> Is this something I can set in my garage?

Nope.

---
Lanny Chambers
'94C, St. Louis
http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html

Lanny Chambers wrote:
> In article <1114194948.233790@sj-nntpcache-5>, josh >
> wrote:
>
>
>>>I would have sacrificed some caster--as much as 2 degrees--to get camber
>>>on both sides matched at a minimum of -1.0 degrees. Expect some
>>>understeer in right turns.
>>
>>Is this something I can set in my garage?
>
>
> Nope.
>

Grr.

Again with the thing about where's a decent shop in Austin that will do this
right? I am not really enthused about going back and spending another $115
at this place to get one thing adjusted.

josh wrote:


> Again with the thing about where's a decent shop in Austin that will do
> this right? I am not really enthused about going back and spending
> another $115 at this place to get one thing adjusted.

Two years ago I would have said Mazda South without hesitation. The
first alignment I had done there was near-perfect, the second one seemed
to be done by less capable people.
I have a stack of receipts from my miata that shows where the last
owner had it aligned. I will try to find the receipt, see what he paid,
and let you know where the shop is located sometime in the next couple
of days.

pat

Unless you have shocks that have adjustable ride height.
Raising and lowering the rear in comparison to the front will affect the
front caster.


"Lanny Chambers" > wrote in message
...
> In article <1114194948.233790@sj-nntpcache-5>, josh >
> wrote:
>
>> > I would have sacrificed some caster--as much as 2 degrees--to get
>> > camber
>> > on both sides matched at a minimum of -1.0 degrees. Expect some
>> > understeer in right turns.
>>
>> Is this something I can set in my garage?
>
> Nope.
>
> ---
> Lanny Chambers
> '94C, St. Louis
> http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html

josh > wrote:

>Thanks you guys (Lanny, Leon in particular) for suggestions a couple of
>months ago about my irregular tire wear and alignment.
>
>Here's a follow-up.
>
>Last tires were Falken Ziex ZE512 185/60-14's and I had characterized these
>tires as "Godawful". Rear tires were worn evenly, but heavily (about 12K
>miles on the tires, past the wear indicators), rear left worn much more than
>the right, front tires worn severely on the outside edges and front right
>tire worn on the inside edge as well, but nearly zero wear in the center. I
>didn't rotate the tires ever mostly because I wanted them to wear out quick
>so I would have an excuse for some new ones.
>
>Handling was good in terms of grip but easily understeered mostly in right
>turns and had snap oversteer either on throttle or lift throttle. In a
>steady corner it would grip fine and drift controllably as long as you
>didn't get iffy with the gas pedal. Turn in was terrible and it felt like
>marshmallow tires.
>
>Turns out it probably wasn't the tires' fault completely.
>
>New tires put on yesterday, Toyo Proxes T1-S 195/55-14, adjusted to 32psi.
>
>When I left the tire shop, the car felt awful. Very mushy rear end and the

Have you upgraded the sway bars on your Miata? If not, off to
racingbeat.com you go.

>turn in was WORSE than with the Falken tires. I was about to get really
>really mad. $400 worth of tires, NO IMPROVEMENT over the crap tires in turn
>in or response!!! Cornering grip is awesome though. But it was slow to
>react. Like you'd turn in and it would initially understeer and you'd feel
>the rear end wallow around and settle, then once into the corner it would
>begin to tighten up and grip like mad. Basically initial understeer and
>turning to grip inside the corner, eventually oversteering slightly if you
>didn't correct. Does that make sense? But I did do a 90-degree turn onto a
>cross street at 40+mph without a squawk.
>
>OK, so this morning I went for the alignment. Anyone want to make bets on
>what the original specs were?
>
> Left Right
>Front Camber -0.7 -1.2
> Caster 5.0 4.8
> Toe 0.14 OUT 0.14 OUT
>
>Rear Camber -0.9 -1.8
> Toe 0.1 IN 0.05 IN
>
>Ha... they said "it's in spec",

It is *not* in spec, at least not for my 96. 0.14" toe out is
*way* out of the Mazda spec, and also exceeds the Miq Millman
specs by more than a factor 2.

> where spec = all of my specs +/- one whole
>degree, and then began to lower the car from the machine. I pitched a fit,
>insisted that I had arranged for a custom-spec alignment and I wasn't
>leaving until I had one and they sent out a different tech who did it right:
>
> Left Right
>Front Camber -0.6 -1.2 MAXED NEG. BOTH SIDES
> Caster 5.0 4.8
> Toe 0.07 IN 0.05 IN
>
>Rear Camber -1.7 -1.7

I agree with Lanny, the left camber difference is too big.

> Toe 0.06 IN 0.07 IN
>
>This was with ballast in the driver's seat.
>
>OK, so now... ahh this is much better!! No real report yet on fast
>cornering but I can tell you the turn in is worlds better and it doesn't
>have that pillowy feel in the rear end any more. Seems to steer easier and
>bite much quicker in low speed turns. I think the kicker was toe in on the
>
>front!!
>
>So I'm a happy Miata owner again. Any comments on my final alignment specs?
>
>Thanks again for the advice.
>
>Oh, and FWIW Lanny, I took your alignment specs with me and boy did they
>argue with me about it. The tech (of course) claimed to be an expert on
>Miata alignments and blah blah race car blah blah autocross blah blah you're
>not going to like the way this car drives, you're going to eat tires, you
>don't know what you're doing, I'll do it your way but it's your funeral kind
>of thing. I was steadfast and reminded them I was the customer and they
>finally did it right, but not without plenty of commentary.

In Tallahassee, they had me sign a warranty waiver on an even
milder one... ;(

> Anyone know of
>a shop in Austin who will just do it right without all the fuss?

Ask your local SCCA Solo II autocross club. In the sort of places
we live, you can find shops that do it without giving you a hassle
if you do not give them a hassle about doing it right.

Leon

--
Leon van Dommelen Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .)
http://www.dommelen.net/miata
EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen)

I have to disagree with Leon on the Sway bars,

It really depends on how you drive, what springs and shocks you have fitted
and the type of roads you drive on.

From my experience I have found it better to get a ride quality (firmness)
that you are happy day to day with, by swapping/adjusting your springs and
shocks, then if you still feel you are getting too much body roll on the
VAST MAJORITY of corners up the roll bar size.

But please take into consideration that upping your sway bar size will
completely knacker up your handling on bumpy roads.

Cheers Mark.


"Leon van Dommelen" > wrote in message
...
> josh > wrote:
>
>>Thanks you guys (Lanny, Leon in particular) for suggestions a couple of
>>months ago about my irregular tire wear and alignment.
>>
>>Here's a follow-up.
>>
>>Last tires were Falken Ziex ZE512 185/60-14's and I had characterized
>>these
>>tires as "Godawful". Rear tires were worn evenly, but heavily (about 12K
>>miles on the tires, past the wear indicators), rear left worn much more
>>than
>>the right, front tires worn severely on the outside edges and front right
>>tire worn on the inside edge as well, but nearly zero wear in the center.
>>I
>>didn't rotate the tires ever mostly because I wanted them to wear out
>>quick
>>so I would have an excuse for some new ones.
>>
>>Handling was good in terms of grip but easily understeered mostly in right
>>turns and had snap oversteer either on throttle or lift throttle. In a
>>steady corner it would grip fine and drift controllably as long as you
>>didn't get iffy with the gas pedal. Turn in was terrible and it felt like
>>marshmallow tires.
>>
>>Turns out it probably wasn't the tires' fault completely.
>>
>>New tires put on yesterday, Toyo Proxes T1-S 195/55-14, adjusted to 32psi.
>>
>>When I left the tire shop, the car felt awful. Very mushy rear end and
>>the
>
> Have you upgraded the sway bars on your Miata? If not, off to
> racingbeat.com you go.
>
>>turn in was WORSE than with the Falken tires. I was about to get really
>>really mad. $400 worth of tires, NO IMPROVEMENT over the crap tires in
>>turn
>>in or response!!! Cornering grip is awesome though. But it was slow to
>>react. Like you'd turn in and it would initially understeer and you'd
>>feel
>>the rear end wallow around and settle, then once into the corner it would
>>begin to tighten up and grip like mad. Basically initial understeer and
>>turning to grip inside the corner, eventually oversteering slightly if you
>>didn't correct. Does that make sense? But I did do a 90-degree turn onto
>>a
>>cross street at 40+mph without a squawk.
>>
>>OK, so this morning I went for the alignment. Anyone want to make bets on
>>what the original specs were?
>>
>> Left Right
>>Front Camber -0.7 -1.2
>> Caster 5.0 4.8
>> Toe 0.14 OUT 0.14 OUT
>>
>>Rear Camber -0.9 -1.8
>> Toe 0.1 IN 0.05 IN
>>
>>Ha... they said "it's in spec",
>
> It is *not* in spec, at least not for my 96. 0.14" toe out is
> *way* out of the Mazda spec, and also exceeds the Miq Millman
> specs by more than a factor 2.
>
>> where spec = all of my specs +/- one whole
>>degree, and then began to lower the car from the machine. I pitched a
>>fit,
>>insisted that I had arranged for a custom-spec alignment and I wasn't
>>leaving until I had one and they sent out a different tech who did it
>>right:
>>
>> Left Right
>>Front Camber -0.6 -1.2 MAXED NEG. BOTH SIDES
>> Caster 5.0 4.8
>> Toe 0.07 IN 0.05 IN
>>
>>Rear Camber -1.7 -1.7
>
> I agree with Lanny, the left camber difference is too big.
>
>> Toe 0.06 IN 0.07 IN
>>
>>This was with ballast in the driver's seat.
>>
>>OK, so now... ahh this is much better!! No real report yet on fast
>>cornering but I can tell you the turn in is worlds better and it doesn't
>>have that pillowy feel in the rear end any more. Seems to steer easier
>>and
>>bite much quicker in low speed turns. I think the kicker was toe in on
>>the
>>
>>front!!
>>
>>So I'm a happy Miata owner again. Any comments on my final alignment
>>specs?
>>
>>Thanks again for the advice.
>>
>>Oh, and FWIW Lanny, I took your alignment specs with me and boy did they
>>argue with me about it. The tech (of course) claimed to be an expert on
>>Miata alignments and blah blah race car blah blah autocross blah blah
>>you're
>>not going to like the way this car drives, you're going to eat tires, you
>>don't know what you're doing, I'll do it your way but it's your funeral
>>kind
>>of thing. I was steadfast and reminded them I was the customer and they
>>finally did it right, but not without plenty of commentary.
>
> In Tallahassee, they had me sign a warranty waiver on an even
> milder one... ;(
>
>> Anyone know of
>>a shop in Austin who will just do it right without all the fuss?
>
> Ask your local SCCA Solo II autocross club. In the sort of places
> we live, you can find shops that do it without giving you a hassle
> if you do not give them a hassle about doing it right.
>
> Leon
>
> --
> Leon van Dommelen Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .)
> http://www.dommelen.net/miata
> EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen)

gixer wrote:
> I have to disagree with Leon on the Sway bars,
>
> It really depends on how you drive, what springs and shocks you have fitted
> and the type of roads you drive on.
>
> From my experience I have found it better to get a ride quality (firmness)
> that you are happy day to day with, by swapping/adjusting your springs and
> shocks, then if you still feel you are getting too much body roll on the
> VAST MAJORITY of corners up the roll bar size.

Yeah I guess I sort of agree.

I would strongly prefer stiffer springs in my car, but my driveway is very
steep and I already drag the tail pipe and chin of the car on the driveway
on entry and exit, so I can't tolerate anything that lowers the ride height.
So that means I have to go with coil-over with adjustable ride height if I
want to swap springs, or fully-custom springs. So... I guess that's to say,
if I could have H&R Race springs without changing the ride height, I would
have been driving with them for the past 5 years.

That said, if I want to stiffen the ride, one way to do it, at least in
corners, without changing ride height, is to change the sway bars. I have
never been that much of a fan of the way a car drives with stiff sway bars
just because I think it's a bit unnatural and just prefer rock-hard springs.

Anyway, it's about time for shocks so I need to sort this out one way or the
other in the next 6-12 months.