1987 Plymouth Reliant 2.5L won't start (early model)

I'm reaching out to those Chrysler/Plymouth gurus out there for help.
I'm almost done with this vehicle, despite replacing the head gasket
and exhaust system recently. Here's what has happened -

1 - Started the car to leave the office, it stalled out and wouldn't
restart. I have ample spark and fuel delivery.

2 - So far I have replaced: plugs, wires, ignition coil, MAP sensor,
ECM (power module located along driver-side fender wall behind the
battery), fuel filter, distributor cap, rotor and ignition pickup (Hall
Effect sensor).

3 - The car turns over fine, gets gas into the EFI throttle body
(single fuel injector) and spark is ample on each plug/wire, it just
won't "catch".

I've checked the error codes via the ignition switch 'on-off-on-off-on'
sequence, and all I get is '12 55'. If I'v read the Chilton's manual
correctly, a code 12 is supposed to be "transaxle unlock relay", which
for the life in me I have never heard of, unless they're referencing a
neutral safety switch. If anyone can tell me if I've read the code
incorrectly I'd sure like to know. I thought the code 12 was the
opening sequence for any/all codes off the ignition switch method, but
maybe I'm wrong?

I've just ordered a new Logic Module, and am waiting for it to arrive
(today/tomorrow), so keeping my fingers crossed. If this doesn't work,
I am at a loss to fix this car that up until now has been so good to
us.

Does anyoe have any ideas what else may be the culprit here??

Thanks to all of you in advance!

"Viper2" > writes:

> I'm reaching out to those Chrysler/Plymouth gurus out there for help.
> I'm almost done with this vehicle, despite replacing the head gasket
> and exhaust system recently. Here's what has happened -
>
> 1 - Started the car to leave the office, it stalled out and wouldn't
> restart. I have ample spark and fuel delivery.
>
> 2 - So far I have replaced: plugs, wires, ignition coil, MAP sensor,
> ECM (power module located along driver-side fender wall behind the
> battery), fuel filter, distributor cap, rotor and ignition pickup (Hall
> Effect sensor).

If you had ample fuel and ignition, why did you replace all these
parts? It's a whole lot cheaper and less frustrating to figure out
what's wrong first, and then only replace what you need to.

> I've checked the error codes via the ignition switch 'on-off-on-off-on'
> sequence, and all I get is '12 55'. If I'v read the Chilton's manual
> correctly, a code 12 is supposed to be "transaxle unlock relay", which
> for the life in me I have never heard of, unless they're referencing a
> neutral safety switch. If anyone can tell me if I've read the code
> incorrectly I'd sure like to know. I thought the code 12 was the
> opening sequence for any/all codes off the ignition switch method, but
> maybe I'm wrong?

First off, toss the Chilton's and get a real factory service manual.
Quite a few people claim they can't afford the FSM; the way you're
throwing money at this problem, you can certainly pay for the FSM.

I've never seen documentation saying that 12 is the "start of codes",
but Dan Stern (who knows a whole lot more about this than me) asserts
this is the case, and I've verified it on a couple of cars. However
(Dan correct me if I'm wrong!), I believe if you only see 12 and 55,
it means "Memory standby power recently lost" (this is the translation
I find in tables), which has a variety of possible causes, most of
them related to either a bad connection someplace.

> I've just ordered a new Logic Module, and am waiting for it to arrive
> (today/tomorrow), so keeping my fingers crossed. If this doesn't work,
> I am at a loss to fix this car that up until now has been so good to
> us.

The sad thing is, it's entirely possible this will "fix" it -- not
because there was anything wrong with the old one, but because
installing the new one will jostle the wires and reseat the
connectors.
--
Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605
Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002
New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer

12 means the battery was recently disconnected. 55 is end of codes. As to
starting, this requires, fuel, spark, and compression. You have checked two
of the three. I'd look at the timing belt as I believe the 2.5L has one.
Did you get it back on correctly and were all the timing marks aligned. If
not the timing belt, then look at the head gasket work you did, although it
is hard to imagine it being bad enough not to start.

Bob

"Viper2" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'm reaching out to those Chrysler/Plymouth gurus out there for help.
> I'm almost done with this vehicle, despite replacing the head gasket
> and exhaust system recently. Here's what has happened -

> I've checked the error codes via the ignition switch 'on-off-on-off-on'
> sequence, and all I get is '12 55'. If I'v read the Chilton's manual
> correctly, a code 12 is supposed to be "transaxle unlock relay", which
> for the life in me I have never heard of, unless they're referencing a
> neutral safety switch. If anyone can tell me if I've read the code
> incorrectly I'd sure like to know. I thought the code 12 was the
> opening sequence for any/all codes off the ignition switch method, but
> maybe I'm wrong?

Thanks for your input, gentlemen. Yes, the timing belt was replaced &
timing was set correctly back in December, and the car's been running
like a dream ever since. I also have checked compression, and there's
no problem there. I have pulled the timing cover and verified the
position of the rotor in the distributor, so it looks like the belt has
not jumped/skipped any teeth.

I can honestly tell you once I get this car out of my driveway, I will
be ordering up the service manual for it and chucking my Chilton's
guide away once and for all. Actually I may go with the AllData
CD-based manual for this model, unless that's not a good idea.

Bob Shuman wrote:
> 12 means the battery was recently disconnected. 55 is end of codes.
As to
> starting, this requires, fuel, spark, and compression. You have
checked two
> of the three. I'd look at the timing belt as I believe the 2.5L has
one.
> Did you get it back on correctly and were all the timing marks
aligned. If
> not the timing belt, then look at the head gasket work you did,
although it
> is hard to imagine it being bad enough not to start.
>
> Bob
>
> "Viper2" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > I'm reaching out to those Chrysler/Plymouth gurus out there for
help.
> > I'm almost done with this vehicle, despite replacing the head
gasket
> > and exhaust system recently. Here's what has happened -
>
> > I've checked the error codes via the ignition switch
'on-off-on-off-on'
> > sequence, and all I get is '12 55'. If I'v read the Chilton's
manual
> > correctly, a code 12 is supposed to be "transaxle unlock relay",
which
> > for the life in me I have never heard of, unless they're
referencing a
> > neutral safety switch. If anyone can tell me if I've read the code
> > incorrectly I'd sure like to know. I thought the code 12 was the
> > opening sequence for any/all codes off the ignition switch method,
but
> > maybe I'm wrong?

Viper2 wrote:

> Thanks for your input, gentlemen. Yes, the timing belt was replaced &
> timing was set correctly back in December, and the car's been running
> like a dream ever since. I also have checked compression, and there's
> no problem there. I have pulled the timing cover and verified the
> position of the rotor in the distributor, so it looks like the belt has
> not jumped/skipped any teeth.
>

When you say "pulled the timing cover" do you mean you actually VERIFIED
that both the cam and the auxiliary shaft (which drives the distributor)
are perfectly timed with the crank, according to the marks? If not, or
if you only checked one shaft or the other, don't be sure it didn't skip
a tooth.

also, rather than just seeing if the rotor points generally in the right
direction, you should use a timing light.

My hunch is a timing belt issue because if you have spark and fuel its
NOT the wiring or the computer. Given that the timing belt was recently
replaced, chances are very good that it wasn't quite tensioned properly
and/or has stretched and jumped time.

I actually checked the timing marks and looked at the rotor location to
verify timing. As the car currently doesn't start, I have no way of
putting a timing light on it at the moment to check the timing. Unless
you suggest that I use the timing light while attempting to crank the
engine over? Other than that, the timing appears to be dead-on, and the
belt is snug, so there's plenty of tension there.

I am replacing the logic module at this point because it is the
original one, and is dated Sept of 1986, as was the power module. I
know several others have claimed that new (re-manufactured) power
modules can sometimes also be bad, but I'm hoping/guessing that my
replacement is OK. Now if the logic module checks out OK, I will let
you all know.

Thanks for all your responses!

"Viper2" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'm reaching out to those Chrysler/Plymouth gurus out there for help.
> I'm almost done with this vehicle, despite replacing the head gasket
> and exhaust system recently. Here's what has happened -
>
> 1 - Started the car to leave the office, it stalled out and wouldn't
> restart. I have ample spark and fuel delivery.
>
> 2 - So far I have replaced: plugs, wires, ignition coil, MAP sensor,
> ECM (power module located along driver-side fender wall behind the
> battery), fuel filter, distributor cap, rotor and ignition pickup (Hall
> Effect sensor).
>
> 3 - The car turns over fine, gets gas into the EFI throttle body
> (single fuel injector) and spark is ample on each plug/wire, it just
> won't "catch".
>
> I've checked the error codes via the ignition switch 'on-off-on-off-on'
> sequence, and all I get is '12 55'. If I'v read the Chilton's manual
> correctly, a code 12 is supposed to be "transaxle unlock relay", which
> for the life in me I have never heard of, unless they're referencing a
> neutral safety switch. If anyone can tell me if I've read the code
> incorrectly I'd sure like to know. I thought the code 12 was the
> opening sequence for any/all codes off the ignition switch method, but
> maybe I'm wrong?
>
> I've just ordered a new Logic Module, and am waiting for it to arrive
> (today/tomorrow), so keeping my fingers crossed. If this doesn't work,
> I am at a loss to fix this car that up until now has been so good to
> us.
>
> Does anyoe have any ideas what else may be the culprit here??
>
> Thanks to all of you in advance!

Back to basics. if you have fuel. spark and compression it should start, but
do you know if all these are in proper time? Have you checked the timing
belt for proper settings?
>

"Joe Pfeiffer" > wrote in message
...
> "Viper2" > writes:
>
> > I'm reaching out to those Chrysler/Plymouth gurus out there for help.
> > I'm almost done with this vehicle, despite replacing the head gasket
> > and exhaust system recently. Here's what has happened -
> >
> > 1 - Started the car to leave the office, it stalled out and wouldn't
> > restart. I have ample spark and fuel delivery.
> >
> > 2 - So far I have replaced: plugs, wires, ignition coil, MAP sensor,
> > ECM (power module located along driver-side fender wall behind the
> > battery), fuel filter, distributor cap, rotor and ignition pickup (Hall
> > Effect sensor).
>
> If you had ample fuel and ignition, why did you replace all these
> parts? It's a whole lot cheaper and less frustrating to figure out
> what's wrong first, and then only replace what you need to.
>
> > I've checked the error codes via the ignition switch 'on-off-on-off-on'
> > sequence, and all I get is '12 55'. If I'v read the Chilton's manual
> > correctly, a code 12 is supposed to be "transaxle unlock relay", which
> > for the life in me I have never heard of, unless they're referencing a
> > neutral safety switch. If anyone can tell me if I've read the code
> > incorrectly I'd sure like to know. I thought the code 12 was the
> > opening sequence for any/all codes off the ignition switch method, but
> > maybe I'm wrong?
>
> First off, toss the Chilton's and get a real factory service manual.
> Quite a few people claim they can't afford the FSM; the way you're
> throwing money at this problem, you can certainly pay for the FSM.
>
> I've never seen documentation saying that 12 is the "start of codes",
> but Dan Stern (who knows a whole lot more about this than me) asserts
> this is the case, and I've verified it on a couple of cars. However
> (Dan correct me if I'm wrong!), I believe if you only see 12 and 55,
> it means "Memory standby power recently lost" (this is the translation
> I find in tables), which has a variety of possible causes, most of
> them related to either a bad connection someplace.
>
> > I've just ordered a new Logic Module, and am waiting for it to arrive
> > (today/tomorrow), so keeping my fingers crossed. If this doesn't work,
> > I am at a loss to fix this car that up until now has been so good to
> > us.
>
> The sad thing is, it's entirely possible this will "fix" it -- not
> because there was anything wrong with the old one, but because
> installing the new one will jostle the wires and reseat the
> connectors.
> --
> Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605
> Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002
> New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer

The code 55 means it is the end of the sequence, When you disconnect the
battery you will get a code 11 and 12 and once it is started the code 11
should go away. the code 12 will go away after about 15 key cycles, that
code is a normal fault if the battery was disconnected

Glenn Beasley
Chrysler Tech

Nomen Nescio wrote:

> Reliants are somewhat deficient in other areas, also:

> the timing belt is time consuming to replace.

Huh?....I guess you haven't done many of them
have you? They are a piece of cake. As is replacing
the head gasket. All in all, a great little car that is
easy to repair, cheap to fix, and is a good little driver.

Ian

"Viper2" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I actually checked the timing marks and looked at the rotor location to
> verify timing. As the car currently doesn't start, I have no way of
> putting a timing light on it at the moment to check the timing. Unless
> you suggest that I use the timing light while attempting to crank the
> engine over? Other than that, the timing appears to be dead-on, and the
> belt is snug, so there's plenty of tension there.

The FSM will tell you how to set the "coarse" ignition timing. I forget
exactly how it works on the two-five, but you have to be able to see the
camshaft (top) sprocket and line up one or two holes in it with something
behind the sprocket. There are some other steps involved too. Then you get
out the timing light.

I personally would not open the package of whatever you just ordered, so you
can show the shop it was never used when you go to return it.

You could search E-bay for an FSM. I got one on CD for a 2001 Ford e-series
van for $5 a few years ago.