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I need a better winter car...



 
 
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  #41  
Old March 2nd 05, 11:14 PM
Bradburn Fentress
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"Corey Shuman" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Cruisers, seriously... well, at the risk of trolling I would venture
> that a stock Rangie would eat a stock Cruiser for breakfast.


You'd be venturing off course. Be careful of the hype....."Bigger
Nuts"...."Best4x4xFar"....and all that jivin' cosmic debris.

Land Cruiser is the preeminent full lineup of 4x4s in the world. I suspect
you simply don't have any perspective for what types of vehicles they
distribute throughout the world. Don't get hung up on the soccer-mom-mobiles
you see here. The US, and in fact most Western countries, only get the
pretty ones. I don't know anybody with any experience who would choose a LR
over a LC, if capability and strength were the only issue. Unfortunately
things like service and parts come into play and post-british colonial
countries tend to be supplied for LR's in greater amount than they are LCs
because of those relationships.

If you hit the Middle East, which in my view is about as difficult as
overall conditions get, you won't see many LR's. It is almost all Japanese
from Pajeros, to Patrols, to LC's. Neither the Jeep nor the LR's measure up
to those vehicles. And who knows precisely what the new Defender will bring
to the table. I think it gets shown at Geneva in the next couple days, with
a release later this year.

Really, anyone who claims differently simply doesn't have the experience to
know any better. Sorry.

And just for purpose of being factual: The Defenders sold in Australia are
actually South African models. The only model specific to Australia (I
think) was the Defender fitted with BMW's 2.8 petrol engine...some years
ago. The SA models will likely remain as the "Classic" and only sold in
countries where they still will meet emission, safety and other vehicle
legislation.

Our British friends on this ng could correct me if I am wrong about models
and release dates.



Ads
  #42  
Old March 3rd 05, 12:48 AM
Max
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Big Bill wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 20:36:33 -0500, Max > wrote:
>
>
>>Hakkapelittas are nuts. I had a set (Hakka 10's) once on a Saab 900 and
>>nothing, nothing could stop me in the snow. Not even studded. They were
>>awesome traction.

>
>
> Obviously, you've only driven in light snow.
> Be reasonable. When the snow is over your bumper, tires are not the
> answer. You need more clearance.
>


Never had Hakkapelitas eh?


--
----------------------
http://www.saab-900.tk
The Saab Tech Resource
----------------------
  #43  
Old March 3rd 05, 11:49 AM
Big Bill
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On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 18:48:37 -0500, Max > wrote:

>Big Bill wrote:
>> On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 20:36:33 -0500, Max > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hakkapelittas are nuts. I had a set (Hakka 10's) once on a Saab 900 and
>>>nothing, nothing could stop me in the snow. Not even studded. They were
>>>awesome traction.

>>
>>
>> Obviously, you've only driven in light snow.
>> Be reasonable. When the snow is over your bumper, tires are not the
>> answer. You need more clearance.
>>

>
>Never had Hakkapelitas eh?


What good do they do when the snow lifts those wonder tires enough to
lose traction?
When the snow is high enough to lift the vehicle high enough that the
tires don't any longer have enough weight on them to gain traction,
better tires are *NOT* the answer.

--
Bill Funk
Change "g" to "a"
  #44  
Old March 3rd 05, 02:31 PM
The Malt Hound
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"Big Bill" > wrote in message
news
> On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 18:48:37 -0500, Max > wrote:
>
>>Big Bill wrote:
>>> On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 20:36:33 -0500, Max >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hakkapelittas are nuts. I had a set (Hakka 10's) once on a Saab
>>>>900 and
>>>>nothing, nothing could stop me in the snow. Not even studded. They
>>>>were
>>>>awesome traction.
>>>
>>>
>>> Obviously, you've only driven in light snow.
>>> Be reasonable. When the snow is over your bumper, tires are not
>>> the
>>> answer. You need more clearance.
>>>

>>
>>Never had Hakkapelitas eh?

>
> What good do they do when the snow lifts those wonder tires enough
> to
> lose traction?
> When the snow is high enough to lift the vehicle high enough that
> the
> tires don't any longer have enough weight on them to gain traction,
> better tires are *NOT* the answer.


Snow will not magically elevate your car. The stuff is generally
pretty light, especially if light and drifted, and can be pushed aside
as the car plows through it if you have the traction to do so.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Good traction *is* the answer.

-Fred W


  #45  
Old March 3rd 05, 04:03 PM
fbloogyudsr
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"The Malt Hound" <Malt_Hound@*no spam please*yahoo.com> wrote
> "Big Bill" > wrote
>> What good do they do when the snow lifts those wonder tires enough
>> to
>> lose traction?
>> When the snow is high enough to lift the vehicle high enough that
>> the
>> tires don't any longer have enough weight on them to gain traction,
>> better tires are *NOT* the answer.

>
> Snow will not magically elevate your car. The stuff is generally
> pretty light, especially if light and drifted, and can be pushed aside
> as the car plows through it if you have the traction to do so.
>
> Sorry, but you are wrong. Good traction *is* the answer.


Sorry, Fred, but *YOU* are wrong. I've been high-centered enough
to know this. And my Pilot Alpines won't save me.

However, the usual method is that the surface that the tires are
packing in the snow - higher than the road surface - gives way
leaving you high and spinning.

Floyd
  #46  
Old March 3rd 05, 04:56 PM
Big Bill
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On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:31:53 -0500, "The Malt Hound" <Malt_Hound@*no
spam please*yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>"Big Bill" > wrote in message
>news
>> On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 18:48:37 -0500, Max > wrote:
>>
>>>Big Bill wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 20:36:33 -0500, Max >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Hakkapelittas are nuts. I had a set (Hakka 10's) once on a Saab
>>>>>900 and
>>>>>nothing, nothing could stop me in the snow. Not even studded. They
>>>>>were
>>>>>awesome traction.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Obviously, you've only driven in light snow.
>>>> Be reasonable. When the snow is over your bumper, tires are not
>>>> the
>>>> answer. You need more clearance.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Never had Hakkapelitas eh?

>>
>> What good do they do when the snow lifts those wonder tires enough
>> to
>> lose traction?
>> When the snow is high enough to lift the vehicle high enough that
>> the
>> tires don't any longer have enough weight on them to gain traction,
>> better tires are *NOT* the answer.

>
>Snow will not magically elevate your car. The stuff is generally
>pretty light, especially if light and drifted, and can be pushed aside
>as the car plows through it if you have the traction to do so.


Did you see the OP's photos? If not, I sugest you do so. Then you will
see what I mean.
>
>Sorry, but you are wrong. Good traction *is* the answer.


Well, I learned how to drive in the snow in Pa.
I learned that when you simply plow into the snow, and it gets packed
under the car, it lifts you up, and the tires lose traction.
I haven't noticed any changes in show that would have changed this,
and, seeing the OP's pics, I am confident in saying that.
I wonder where you drive that this is not so.
>
>-Fred W
>


--
Bill Funk
Change "g" to "a"
  #47  
Old March 3rd 05, 05:41 PM
The Malt Hound
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"Big Bill" > wrote in message
...
> Well, I learned how to drive in the snow in Pa.
> I learned that when you simply plow into the snow, and it gets
> packed
> under the car, it lifts you up, and the tires lose traction.
> I haven't noticed any changes in show that would have changed this,
> and, seeing the OP's pics, I am confident in saying that.
> I wonder where you drive that this is not so.



I learned to (and currently) drive in the snow in northern New
England. What you say is definitely true should you drive into a bank
or pileup created by a snowplow. But if it is just unpacked deep
snow, you can definitely go through snow as high or higher than the
bumper.

YM(and snow)MV,
-Fred W


  #48  
Old March 3rd 05, 06:11 PM
Michael Low
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The Malt Hound wrote:
> "Big Bill" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Well, I learned how to drive in the snow in Pa.
> > I learned that when you simply plow into the snow, and it gets
> > packed
> > under the car, it lifts you up, and the tires lose traction.
> > I haven't noticed any changes in show that would have changed this,
> > and, seeing the OP's pics, I am confident in saying that.
> > I wonder where you drive that this is not so.

>
>
> I learned to (and currently) drive in the snow in northern New
> England. What you say is definitely true should you drive into a

bank
> or pileup created by a snowplow. But if it is just unpacked deep
> snow, you can definitely go through snow as high or higher than the
> bumper.
>
> YM(and snow)MV,
> -Fred W



Fred, you are a knowledgeable guy but you are wrong on this one.

You are guaranteed to get stuck if you insist on plowing through snow
that does not clear the underside of your car. It's one thing to go
over a short bump on the road but you cannot plow through a distance on
this stuff, regardless of what kind of wheels you are driving. Wheels
have to touch "ground" with sufficient weight to provide traction.

The reason is simple - if the underside of your car touches the snow,
your car will become a very inefficient snowplow and the snow will
bunch up against the underbody of your car and pack itself. The
momentum of your car will eventually leave your wheels "hanging" from
the "ground". As the weight of the car diminish from the packed snow,
the amount of traction you get from whatevr tire or drivetrain will
vanish.

You will get stuck as you try to move through this kind of condition.
Clearance is the issue if your tires can provide traction on the
surface. Snow must not touch the underside of your car. Of course, if
your tires are wrong then clearance doesn't matter. You're not even
moving.

  #49  
Old March 3rd 05, 06:47 PM
Bradburn Fentress
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"The Malt Hound" <Malt_Hound@*no spam please*yahoo.com> wrote in message
...
>
> "Big Bill" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Well, I learned how to drive in the snow in Pa.
>> I learned that when you simply plow into the snow, and it gets packed
>> under the car, it lifts you up, and the tires lose traction.
>> I haven't noticed any changes in show that would have changed this,
>> and, seeing the OP's pics, I am confident in saying that.
>> I wonder where you drive that this is not so.

>
>
> I learned to (and currently) drive in the snow in northern New England.
> What you say is definitely true should you drive into a bank or pileup
> created by a snowplow. But if it is just unpacked deep snow, you can
> definitely go through snow as high or higher than the bumper.


Interesting. I live above Vail Colorado. We see a lot of snow. We've been
seeing a lot of snow all our lives. We are somewhat used to a lot of snow.
Yet no one around here is able to plow down the road in their 3,500 lb car
in over the bumper snow with the ease you suggest New Englanders enjoy.

I don't buy it. In snow as deep as being spoken about here, cars tend to
ride up and lose all or some of the contact patch. It's just the way it
works when a car has limited clearance in deep snow.

Plus, I don't think Hakka's are the best snow tires for where I live anyway
(to keep context correct, the tires I have owned were the Hakkapelita Q).
They are pretty effective in fresh snow (braking, acceleration), crappy in
slush or heavily wetted snow and lateral traction in any snow is about as
bad as I have ever experienced which cause them to not track well. Superb
ice tire though. I got the sense the tire is designed for conditions where
the temps are uncommonly low all the time and every snow fall eventually
becomes hardpack and then ice. I can imagine these tires are spectacular in
that kind of condition.

For my money, for the area where I live, the Blizzak MZ-02 seems to suit the
conditions best. But only when the car in question can maintain the contact
patch.



  #50  
Old March 3rd 05, 08:32 PM
Somebody
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"Big Bill" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:31:53 -0500, "The Malt Hound" <Malt_Hound@*no
> spam please*yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Big Bill" > wrote in message
> >news
> >> On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 18:48:37 -0500, Max > wrote:
> >>
> >>>Big Bill wrote:
> >>>> On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 20:36:33 -0500, Max >
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Hakkapelittas are nuts. I had a set (Hakka 10's) once on a Saab
> >>>>>900 and
> >>>>>nothing, nothing could stop me in the snow. Not even studded. They
> >>>>>were
> >>>>>awesome traction.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Obviously, you've only driven in light snow.
> >>>> Be reasonable. When the snow is over your bumper, tires are not
> >>>> the
> >>>> answer. You need more clearance.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>Never had Hakkapelitas eh?
> >>
> >> What good do they do when the snow lifts those wonder tires enough
> >> to
> >> lose traction?
> >> When the snow is high enough to lift the vehicle high enough that
> >> the
> >> tires don't any longer have enough weight on them to gain traction,
> >> better tires are *NOT* the answer.

> >
> >Snow will not magically elevate your car. The stuff is generally
> >pretty light, especially if light and drifted, and can be pushed aside
> >as the car plows through it if you have the traction to do so.

>
> Did you see the OP's photos? If not, I sugest you do so. Then you will
> see what I mean.
> >
> >Sorry, but you are wrong. Good traction *is* the answer.

>
> Well, I learned how to drive in the snow in Pa.
> I learned that when you simply plow into the snow, and it gets packed
> under the car, it lifts you up, and the tires lose traction.
> I haven't noticed any changes in show that would have changed this,
> and, seeing the OP's pics, I am confident in saying that.
> I wonder where you drive that this is not so.


I think that comes down to the airdam. If you airdam is low enough, snow
will either get plowed or pile up in front of the car. If it is higher than
the undercarriage, snow will build up under the car, starting with the
lowest points of the undercarriage and proceeding to all sections that occur
lower than the airdam's lower lip.

On the E30 if you have an iS lip, it's low enough. An i lip will still not
allow any significant buildup under the car. With no lip, you will get
buildup in front of the steering gear and the front crossmember, which will
get into the belts eventually. Nothing behind the front crossmember is any
lower than that so it won't build up back there. Regardless, snow in that
seciton is not likely to lift the front up, and if it did, the drive wheels
are still in traction. It would be very difficult to build up enough snow
to lift the rears.

Now, breeching a drift is another story... you can blast the front wheels up
and over it, and then settle the car down on the crest of the drift and high
center it just as the rears begin to get lifted up. Hit it hard enough and
momentum will carry you through regardless Go slowly enough and you will
tend to plow it out of the way and not allow anything under the car, but
might get stuck when the rears get into the middle of it if you have bad
tires -- with good ones, the rears will still bite and you'll continue on.

-Russ.

-Russ.



 




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