Mexico selling unsafe cars.

On Saturday, November 30, 2013 11:21:11 AM UTC-6, T0m $herman wrote:
> On 11/30/2013 10:23 AM, . wrote:
>
> > "JR" > wrote in message
>
> > ...
>
> > On Friday, November 29, 2013 11:16:04 PM UTC-6, T0m $herman wrote:
>
> >> On 11/29/2013 5:29 PM, JR wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>>>> One night in 1972 when I was driving in Mexico, there was an extra
>
> >>>>> high speed bump in front of a bridge. I was driving slow but I didn't
>
> >>>>> see that extra high speed bump. BLAM!, it nearly ripped the whole
>
> >>>>> front end out from under my old 1978 Dodge van. Now, that is
>
> >>>>> dangerous/unsafe.
>
> >>
>
> >>> Oops, actually it was in 1992 when I visited Mexico for five days and
>
> >>> nights. Matamoros and Reynosa and Rio Bravo and Monterey and a few other
>
> >>> cities and towns.
>
> >>
>
> >> Yes, it would have been quite the trick to be driving an old 1978 Dodge
>
> >>
>
> >> van in 1972.
>
> >>
>
> >> Not that it likely made any real difference in handling or roll-over
>
> >>
>
> >> angle, but I always hated the narrow rear track look on the Dodge
>
> >>
>
> >> B-Series vans.
>
> >>
>
> >> T0m $herm@n
>
> >
>
> > Old Dodge vehicles are Tough vehicles. Google,,, Pershing's Dodge car
>
> > My favorite vehicles are Dodge and Ford/Ford and Dodge.
>
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >
>
> > Given your lamebrain endorsement, I'd avoid them like the plague.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> How much do Dodge vehicles differ from Plymouth vehicles of the same
>
> era? Our family inherited a 1975 Plymouth Gran Fury in the late 1970's,
>
> and that was one of the worst pieces of automotive excrement to ever
>
> leave a factory. Poor engine reliability (first engine replaced under
>
> warranty at 10K miles), terrible rust proofing (by the time the car was
>
> 7 years old, the trunk was unusable due to rust holes), lots of air
>
> leaks around the doors, door handle hardware partially failed on all
>
> doors within the same 7 years, sucked gas (less than 12 mpg on a vehicle
>
> with a ~19-second quarter-mile time), terrible seats that the upholstery
>
> wore through in less than 8 years, almost no suspension dampening, and
>
> fueling that get the car to lurch out into an intersection, then stall.
>
>
>
> The Plymouth made my Renault R11 seem like the pinnacle of automotive
>
> excellence (hey, it was $400 at 8 years and 60K miles).
>
>
>
> --
>
> T0m $herm@n

All, or mostly all, car manufacturers have produced some vehicles that are lemons. Dodge/Chrysler/Plymouth/DeSoto/Imperial are no exceptions. The worst brand name vehicles (two pickup trucks and one van) I have ever owned before were Chevrolets.

"T0m $herman" > wrote in
:


>>
> How much do Dodge vehicles differ from Plymouth vehicles of the same
> era?



During the emissions era, very little. In fact, the first K-cars were
absolutely identical except for the grille and badges.



> Our family inherited a 1975 Plymouth Gran Fury in the late
> 1970's, and that was one of the worst pieces of automotive excrement
> to ever leave a factory.



Mid-late '70s Chrysler products were not very good at all. Absysmal quality
surely contributed to their financial woes.

I remember:
- Door weatherstripping shrinking and pulling away from the door frame
- VW engines used in the Omnirizon suffering early valve-stem seal failure
- Body hardware falling apart within months
- Obvious grinding marks under chrome -- in the dealer's lot!
- Dribbly paint -- in the dealer's lot!
- Electrical connectors so loose that headlights and gauges failed
- Dealership mechanics so poorly-schooled in the new FWD cars that they
caused more problems than they fixed.

Great styling, though. I thought most of their '70s products were pretty
good-looking.

--
Tegger

T0m $herman > wrote:
>>
>How much do Dodge vehicles differ from Plymouth vehicles of the same
>era? Our family inherited a 1975 Plymouth Gran Fury in the late 1970's,
>and that was one of the worst pieces of automotive excrement to ever
>leave a factory. Poor engine reliability (first engine replaced under
>warranty at 10K miles), terrible rust proofing (by the time the car was
>7 years old, the trunk was unusable due to rust holes), lots of air
>leaks around the doors, door handle hardware partially failed on all
>doors within the same 7 years, sucked gas (less than 12 mpg on a vehicle
>with a ~19-second quarter-mile time), terrible seats that the upholstery
>wore through in less than 8 years, almost no suspension dampening, and
>fueling that get the car to lurch out into an intersection, then stall.

I hate to say this, but that is pretty much typical of all American cars
from that era, which was by far the nadir of American auto manufacture.
It took being clobbered in their own market by the Japanese for any of
the American manufacturers to take notice at just how badly their quality
control had become.

Lee Iacocca's book is worth reading for some discussion of what went wrong
at Chrysler specifically and what was done about it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 2013-12-01, Scott Dorsey > wrote:

> I hate to say this, but that is pretty much typical of all American cars
> from that era, which was by far the nadir of American auto manufacture.
> It took being clobbered in their own market by the Japanese for any of
> the American manufacturers to take notice at just how badly their quality
> control had become.

That's the beauty of market competition. It is only a matter of time
before one automaker starts offering the gizmos in mexico and from
there all of them will probably end up doing so.


As to the foxnews article, right now it's a question of product mix and
margins. In Mexico there probably aren't enough higher priced cars sold
to keep the lights on in the dealerships so the margins are higher on
the lower teir cars. In the US the product mix dictate making better
margin on more expensive cars while cutting margins on the lower end
cars. But the quest for sales in a competitive market will eventually
increase content while maintaining price points.

On Saturday, November 30, 2013 5:54:04 AM UTC+3, Geoff Welsh wrote:
> Tegger wrote:
>
> > > wrote in :
>
> >
>
> >> Google, or whatever.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Lemme post an actual link:
>
> > http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2013/...g-unsafe-cars/
>
> >
>
> > Excerpt:
>
> > "Vehicles destined to stay in Mexico or go south to the rest of
>
> > Latin America carry a code signifying there's no need for
>
> > antilock braking systems, electronic stability control, or
>
> > more than two air bags, if any, in its basic models."
>
> >
>
> > What??? THAT's "unsafe"?
>
> >
>
> > That sounds just like about 99% of the cars sold in the US
>
> > in the early '90s, and which were anything but death-traps.
>
> >
>
> > I would be very happy to be able to buy a brand-new car
>
> > that was as "unsafe" as the ones scourged by the article.
>
> >
>
> > "Safety" is a modern insanity, a paranoia, a sick fetish,
>
> > an addiction; ......
>
>
>
> it's also extremely expensive to fix. I just priced a driver inflator
>
> module (air bag)) on a 2007 Frontier the other day and it was $800 retail.
>

uncle sam it doing its best to stop people from driving.
One way to(the way they) do it is to cram all the electronic crap into a car so when it starts to fall apart
there is no way to fix it easily. So you are forced to buy a modern computer on wheels
and get even less freedom. It's a vicious loop.
Now with the boatload of "safety" legislative crap go try to make a spartan car with 2bags
like those sold in thirder shade of world and try to get it certified for sale to the public. sigh.

Next on the agenda: eliminating the steering wheel. Self parking gizmos are the first step in the "right"
direction.

On 1 Dec 2013 16:19:46 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>T0m $herman > wrote:
>>>
>>How much do Dodge vehicles differ from Plymouth vehicles of the same
>>era? Our family inherited a 1975 Plymouth Gran Fury in the late 1970's,
>>and that was one of the worst pieces of automotive excrement to ever
>>leave a factory. Poor engine reliability (first engine replaced under
>>warranty at 10K miles), terrible rust proofing (by the time the car was
>>7 years old, the trunk was unusable due to rust holes), lots of air
>>leaks around the doors, door handle hardware partially failed on all
>>doors within the same 7 years, sucked gas (less than 12 mpg on a vehicle
>>with a ~19-second quarter-mile time), terrible seats that the upholstery
>>wore through in less than 8 years, almost no suspension dampening, and
>>fueling that get the car to lurch out into an intersection, then stall.
>
>I hate to say this, but that is pretty much typical of all American cars
>from that era, which was by far the nadir of American auto manufacture.
>It took being clobbered in their own market by the Japanese for any of
>the American manufacturers to take notice at just how badly their quality
>control had become.
>
>Lee Iacocca's book is worth reading for some discussion of what went wrong
>at Chrysler specifically and what was done about it.
>--scott

Pretty much true, Goes back earlier actually. l was lucky and only
got "burned" a bit with bad rusting on a '74 Dart, which was otherwise
a decent car.
Because I had a lot of kids, I only had a '76 Caprice and a '78
Beauville Van in the from the 70's. Both treated me right, because of
solid 350's. Bought them in the early '80's.
Wait, there was a '72 Nova in there. Probably my least favorite car.
Quick, but tinny. 307, and only car that burned a valve on me.
I abused it.
Throw-away car, but didn't pay much for it used. Had it maybe a year.
Jap cars did a lot for me. Made used GM's real cheap.
When you get down to it, there were always some good cars to select
from, just not many. The selection happened to suit me fine.
Didn't want a Camry/Corolla or a Accord/Civic. Don't spend a lot on
cars, and they were bad values for me, beside's being unsuitably
small.

On Monday, December 2, 2013 6:43:22 AM UTC-6, Vic Smith wrote:
> On 1 Dec 2013 16:19:46 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>
>
> >T0m $herman > wrote:
>
> >>>
>
> >>How much do Dodge vehicles differ from Plymouth vehicles of the same
>
> >>era? Our family inherited a 1975 Plymouth Gran Fury in the late 1970's,
>
> >>and that was one of the worst pieces of automotive excrement to ever
>
> >>leave a factory. Poor engine reliability (first engine replaced under
>
> >>warranty at 10K miles), terrible rust proofing (by the time the car was
>
> >>7 years old, the trunk was unusable due to rust holes), lots of air
>
> >>leaks around the doors, door handle hardware partially failed on all
>
> >>doors within the same 7 years, sucked gas (less than 12 mpg on a vehicle
>
> >>with a ~19-second quarter-mile time), terrible seats that the upholstery
>
> >>wore through in less than 8 years, almost no suspension dampening, and
>
> >>fueling that get the car to lurch out into an intersection, then stall.
>
> >
>
> >I hate to say this, but that is pretty much typical of all American cars
>
> >from that era, which was by far the nadir of American auto manufacture.
>
> >It took being clobbered in their own market by the Japanese for any of
>
> >the American manufacturers to take notice at just how badly their quality
>
> >control had become.
>
> >
>
> >Lee Iacocca's book is worth reading for some discussion of what went wrong
>
> >at Chrysler specifically and what was done about it.
>
> >--scott
>
>
>
> Pretty much true, Goes back earlier actually. l was lucky and only
>
> got "burned" a bit with bad rusting on a '74 Dart, which was otherwise
>
> a decent car.
>
> Because I had a lot of kids, I only had a '76 Caprice and a '78
>
> Beauville Van in the from the 70's. Both treated me right, because of
>
> solid 350's. Bought them in the early '80's.
>
> Wait, there was a '72 Nova in there. Probably my least favorite car.
>
> Quick, but tinny. 307, and only car that burned a valve on me.
>
> I abused it.
>
> Throw-away car, but didn't pay much for it used. Had it maybe a year.
>
> Jap cars did a lot for me. Made used GM's real cheap.
>
> When you get down to it, there were always some good cars to select
>
> from, just not many. The selection happened to suit me fine.
>
> Didn't want a Camry/Corolla or a Accord/Civic. Don't spend a lot on
>
> cars, and they were bad values for me, beside's being unsuitably
>
> small.

An Old VW For Everyday Use? Classic Car section at, http://ericpetersautos.com

On 12/2/2013 6:43 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
> On 1 Dec 2013 16:19:46 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>> T0m $herman > wrote:
>>>>
>>> How much do Dodge vehicles differ from Plymouth vehicles of the same
>>> era? Our family inherited a 1975 Plymouth Gran Fury in the late 1970's,
>>> and that was one of the worst pieces of automotive excrement to ever
>>> leave a factory. Poor engine reliability (first engine replaced under
>>> warranty at 10K miles), terrible rust proofing (by the time the car was
>>> 7 years old, the trunk was unusable due to rust holes), lots of air
>>> leaks around the doors, door handle hardware partially failed on all
>>> doors within the same 7 years, sucked gas (less than 12 mpg on a vehicle
>>> with a ~19-second quarter-mile time), terrible seats that the upholstery
>>> wore through in less than 8 years, almost no suspension dampening, and
>>> fueling that get the car to lurch out into an intersection, then stall.
>>
>> I hate to say this, but that is pretty much typical of all American cars
>>from that era, which was by far the nadir of American auto manufacture.
>> It took being clobbered in their own market by the Japanese for any of
>> the American manufacturers to take notice at just how badly their quality
>> control had become.
>>
>> Lee Iacocca's book is worth reading for some discussion of what went wrong
>> at Chrysler specifically and what was done about it.
>> --scott
>
> Pretty much true, Goes back earlier actually. l was lucky and only
> got "burned" a bit with bad rusting on a '74 Dart, which was otherwise
> a decent car.
> Because I had a lot of kids, I only had a '76 Caprice and a '78
> Beauville Van in the from the 70's. Both treated me right, because of
> solid 350's. Bought them in the early '80's.
> Wait, there was a '72 Nova in there. Probably my least favorite car.
> Quick, but tinny. 307, and only car that burned a valve on me.
> I abused it.
> Throw-away car, but didn't pay much for it used. Had it maybe a year.
> Jap cars did a lot for me. Made used GM's real cheap.
> When you get down to it, there were always some good cars to select
> from, just not many. The selection happened to suit me fine.
> Didn't want a Camry/Corolla or a Accord/Civic. Don't spend a lot on
> cars, and they were bad values for me, beside's being unsuitably
> small.
>
On the other hand, almost all of "Detroit's" cars from the 1970's to
early 1980's were horrors of poor ergonomics, poor handling, poor
steering feel, poor brakes, poor seat design, poor suspension damping,
poor space efficiency, poor fuel economy, poor acceleration, and hideous
to boot.

By those standards a first generation Honda Accord was a wonder.

Remember the Motor Trend comparison where a 1300cc Civic S beat the
contemporary Mustang Cobra (with a 260 c.i. V-8) in the quarter-mile?

--
T0m $herm@n

On Mon, 02 Dec 2013 22:30:44 -0600, "T0m $herman"
> wrote:


>>
>On the other hand, almost all of "Detroit's" cars from the 1970's to
>early 1980's were horrors of poor ergonomics, poor handling, poor
>steering feel, poor brakes, poor seat design, poor suspension damping,
>poor space efficiency, poor fuel economy, poor acceleration, and hideous
>to boot.
>

Compared to what and to whom? Never had such issues with my '70's
cars.

>By those standards a first generation Honda Accord was a wonder.
>

If you wanted an Accord, I suppose. But that thought never entered
my mind, seeing as Honda had no equivalent for a '76 Caprice or '78
Beauville Van.
Accord wasn't what I required for hauling a wife and 5 kids.

>Remember the Motor Trend comparison where a 1300cc Civic S beat the
>contemporary Mustang Cobra (with a 260 c.i. V-8) in the quarter-mile?

Nope.

On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 8:38:00 AM UTC-6, Vic Smith wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Dec 2013 22:30:44 -0600, "T0m $herman"
>
> > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >>
>
> >On the other hand, almost all of "Detroit's" cars from the 1970's to
>
> >early 1980's were horrors of poor ergonomics, poor handling, poor
>
> >steering feel, poor brakes, poor seat design, poor suspension damping,
>
> >poor space efficiency, poor fuel economy, poor acceleration, and hideous
>
> >to boot.
>
> >
>
>
>
> Compared to what and to whom? Never had such issues with my '70's
>
> cars.
>
>
>
> >By those standards a first generation Honda Accord was a wonder.
>
> >
>
>
>
> If you wanted an Accord, I suppose. But that thought never entered
>
> my mind, seeing as Honda had no equivalent for a '76 Caprice or '78
>
> Beauville Van.
>
> Accord wasn't what I required for hauling a wife and 5 kids.
>
>
>
> >Remember the Motor Trend comparison where a 1300cc Civic S beat the
>
> >contemporary Mustang Cobra (with a 260 c.i. V-8) in the quarter-mile?
>
>
>
> Nope.

''Detroit Iron'' is Tough. How many old ''Detroit Iron'' vehicles do you see still running around compared to the foreign name brand vehicles?