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156 temperature



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 14th 04, 06:44 PM
Tom Asselman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default 156 temperature

Hello,

I think I'm having an issue with the temperature of my 156 1.9 jtd
sportwagon.
Nomatter how far I drive, the temperature never reaches 90°C.
It keeps displaying about 70 °C, sometimes a bit more. I also have the
impression that the engine is never really warmed up, especialy when
accelerating in 1st en 2nd gear.

Should a diesel engine really reach 90 °C or I am a just paranoid?

Greets
Tom


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  #2  
Old September 16th 04, 09:25 AM
Zathras
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Default

On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 20:39:43 +0200, "Alfistagj"
> wrote:

>That's one of the reasons why diesel cars often come with an auxilary
>interior heater.
>The engines are so fuel efficient that they heat up very slowly, even that
>slow that they can only very limited heat up the interior in winter.


That's exactly what I thought before I got mine. But it heats up more
or less just the same as my petrol cars have so no worries.

You are correct to point out that they're 'fuel efficient' but you
don't mention the Diesel secret which is that it's a more calorific
(more energy per litre) fuel than petrol. This should all balance out
(more or less) and result in a similar engine temperature profile to
petrol. It wouldn't surprise me if heat loss due to inefficiency of
combustion was pretty close between petrol and diesel these days too.

The only reason I've seen cars with aux cabin heaters is to provide
instant heat on startup or for cars that might be expected to visit or
come from Scandinavia (or other such cold countries) frequently. I've
seen them as options on cars for the UK (petrol ones mostly!) but,
it's a bit of a luxury as we very rarely go below -10C and rarely
below -5C. These days we rarely even see decent snow either (ask the
Scottish Ski companies!).

The most significant engine cooler on a faultless 156, especially in
cooler weather, is the aircon. It is entirely capable of making a warm
engine cool. If you leave it on Auto fan control all year round (as I
do) you might not realise what's really going on temperature wise
unless you check the engine water temp. The 156 A/C (on Auto fan
control) ramps up slowly on cold mornings to give the engine some
chance to heat up but it's not perfect and can be overcome by setting
a large demand on the temperature control. I've seen me drive for tens
of miles and the water temp stay low then turn down the A/C and watch
it rise to a more normal temp. Switch it on again and it drops.
Depends how hot you want the cabin to be. It also depends on how hard
you are driving!

Wouldn't surprise me if this thread always pops up at the start of
Autumn with a converse thread at the start of Summer!!

--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!)
  #3  
Old September 16th 04, 10:14 AM
DesmaisonLCM
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Posts: n/a
Default

Dans l'article <R%%1d.1854$L43.90@amstwist00>, "Alfistagj"
>a écrit :

>That's one of the reasons why diesel cars often come with an auxilary
>interior heater.
>The engines are so fuel efficient that they heat up very slowly, even that
>slow that they can only very limited heat up the interior in winter.
>I guess 70dgr is a normal temperature when the ambient temperatures are not
>really summerly and you don't keep asking full power hours after another!


Full agree with you, new diesel engine, especialy with "common rail" like JTD
and HDI are design to work at low temp, near 70°C.
Now a lot af cars are equiped with this auxilary interior heater, even in
France witch is not a very cold country in winter.
A petrol engine must run near 90°c but not a diesel one.

Bruno.
  #4  
Old September 16th 04, 04:29 PM
Zathras
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:44:13 GMT, "Tom Asselman"
> wrote:

>Hello,
>
>I think I'm having an issue with the temperature of my 156 1.9 jtd
>sportwagon.
>Nomatter how far I drive, the temperature never reaches 90°C.
>It keeps displaying about 70 °C, sometimes a bit more. I also have the
>impression that the engine is never really warmed up, especialy when
>accelerating in 1st en 2nd gear.
>
>Should a diesel engine really reach 90 °C or I am a just paranoid?


Mine usually sits close to 85°C. On very cold days, the aircon can
drive it down to about 70°C. I've never seen it get to 90°C. It is the
2.4 though.

--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!)
  #5  
Old September 16th 04, 04:53 PM
Arjan Renting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 16-9-2004 10:25, Zathras wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 20:39:43 +0200, "Alfistagj"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>That's one of the reasons why diesel cars often come with an auxilary
>>interior heater.
>>The engines are so fuel efficient that they heat up very slowly, even that
>>slow that they can only very limited heat up the interior in winter.

>
>
> That's exactly what I thought before I got mine. But it heats up more
> or less just the same as my petrol cars have so no worries.


Well, in my experience the 1.9 JTD heats up _a lot_ slower than a 1.6
TS, in city traffic even more noticeable.

> You are correct to point out that they're 'fuel efficient' but you
> don't mention the Diesel secret which is that it's a more calorific
> (more energy per litre) fuel than petrol. This should all balance out
> (more or less) and result in a similar engine temperature profile to
> petrol. It wouldn't surprise me if heat loss due to inefficiency of
> combustion was pretty close between petrol and diesel these days too.
>
> The only reason I've seen cars with aux cabin heaters is to provide
> instant heat on startup or for cars that might be expected to visit or
> come from Scandinavia (or other such cold countries) frequently. I've
> seen them as options on cars for the UK (petrol ones mostly!) but,
> it's a bit of a luxury as we very rarely go below -10C and rarely
> below -5C. These days we rarely even see decent snow either (ask the
> Scottish Ski companies!).


The auxiliary heater used in the diesel engines of Alfa are not to be
compared with a parking heater that are quite common in Scandinavia for
example. Out of experience I can tell you that driving down a steep and
slippery mountain (only 1st and 2nd gear) for half an hour with a cold
engine (JTD) with outside temperatures of -20 deg C doesn't heat up the
interior very much, not to a pleasant temperature, though there is a
little warm air that makes that your fingers don't freeze off :-)

> The most significant engine cooler on a faultless 156, especially in
> cooler weather, is the aircon. It is entirely capable of making a warm
> engine cool. If you leave it on Auto fan control all year round (as I
> do) you might not realise what's really going on temperature wise
> unless you check the engine water temp. The 156 A/C (on Auto fan
> control) ramps up slowly on cold mornings to give the engine some
> chance to heat up but it's not perfect and can be overcome by setting
> a large demand on the temperature control. I've seen me drive for tens
> of miles and the water temp stay low then turn down the A/C and watch
> it rise to a more normal temp. Switch it on again and it drops.
> Depends how hot you want the cabin to be. It also depends on how hard
> you are driving!


Well, in fact your air con provides heat to the cooling system, not
directly though. As the cooler of the engine is mounted in front of the
radiator it will give some heat to the cooling system of the engine.
Cooling down the interior means heating up the cooler of the air con.
For that reason the fan will be switched on frequently even when the
engine is still cold. Shouldn't be to much of a problem if the
thermostat works correctly.

> Wouldn't surprise me if this thread always pops up at the start of
> Autumn with a converse thread at the start of Summer!!


Yep, that is when malfunctioning of the thermostat is noticeable.

Arjan

  #6  
Old September 16th 04, 05:53 PM
Zathras
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:53:30 +0200, Arjan Renting >
wrote:

<snip>
>The auxiliary heater used in the diesel engines of Alfa are not to be
>compared with a parking heater that are quite common in Scandinavia for
>example.


If by 'parking heater' you mean the ones where you plug them into the
mains to heat the car then I wasn't meaning those.

>Out of experience I can tell you that driving down a steep and
>slippery mountain (only 1st and 2nd gear) for half an hour with a cold
>engine (JTD) with outside temperatures of -20 deg C doesn't heat up the
>interior very much, not to a pleasant temperature, though there is a
>little warm air that makes that your fingers don't freeze off :-)
>
>> The most significant engine cooler on a faultless 156, especially in
>> cooler weather, is the aircon. It is entirely capable of making a warm
>> engine cool. If you leave it on Auto fan control all year round (as I
>> do) you might not realise what's really going on temperature wise
>> unless you check the engine water temp. The 156 A/C (on Auto fan
>> control) ramps up slowly on cold mornings to give the engine some
>> chance to heat up but it's not perfect and can be overcome by setting
>> a large demand on the temperature control. I've seen me drive for tens
>> of miles and the water temp stay low then turn down the A/C and watch
>> it rise to a more normal temp. Switch it on again and it drops.
>> Depends how hot you want the cabin to be. It also depends on how hard
>> you are driving!

>
>Well, in fact your air con provides heat to the cooling system, not
>directly though. As the cooler of the engine is mounted in front of the
>radiator it will give some heat to the cooling system of the engine.
>Cooling down the interior means heating up the cooler of the air con.


? I'm talking about 'cooler weather' when you're *heating* the cabin
and thus drawing heat from the heater matrix which is fed from engine
coolant IIRC. You're referring to chilling the cabin - I've not found
that to have any effect on engine temperature. My loose reference to
'156 A/C' really means the whole climate control system (heating and
cooling).

>For that reason the fan will be switched on frequently even when the
>engine is still cold. Shouldn't be to much of a problem if the
>thermostat works correctly.
>
>> Wouldn't surprise me if this thread always pops up at the start of
>> Autumn with a converse thread at the start of Summer!!

>
>Yep, that is when malfunctioning of the thermostat is noticeable.


I've only experienced thermostat malfunctions that were noticeable at
any time of the year.

--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!)
  #7  
Old September 16th 04, 08:18 PM
Tom Asselman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Now I am confused...

I'm hearing several versions here, and my dealer says that my thermostat
needs to be replaced and that my engine should be at 90°C...
Will the replacement of my thermostat be a zero operation?

Thanks guys for al the interesting threads !

"DesmaisonLCM" > wrote in message
...
> Dans l'article <R%%1d.1854$L43.90@amstwist00>, "Alfistagj"
> >a écrit :
>
>>That's one of the reasons why diesel cars often come with an auxilary
>>interior heater.
>>The engines are so fuel efficient that they heat up very slowly, even that
>>slow that they can only very limited heat up the interior in winter.
>>I guess 70dgr is a normal temperature when the ambient temperatures are
>>not
>>really summerly and you don't keep asking full power hours after another!

>
> Full agree with you, new diesel engine, especialy with "common rail" like
> JTD
> and HDI are design to work at low temp, near 70°C.
> Now a lot af cars are equiped with this auxilary interior heater, even in
> France witch is not a very cold country in winter.
> A petrol engine must run near 90°c but not a diesel one.
>
> Bruno.
>



  #8  
Old September 16th 04, 10:42 PM
Zathras
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:18:56 GMT, "Tom Asselman"
> wrote:

>Now I am confused...
>
>I'm hearing several versions here, and my dealer says that my thermostat
>needs to be replaced and that my engine should be at 90°C...


That's my experience too. Not quite 90°C but close. Oh..and just how
accurate is my (or your) temperature gauge anyway?

>Will the replacement of my thermostat be a zero operation?


Only if it's not faulty! ;-) If I were in your position I'd change
the stat first anyway.

<snip>

--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!)
  #9  
Old September 17th 04, 07:10 PM
Arjan Renting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 16-9-2004 18:53, Zathras wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:53:30 +0200, Arjan Renting >
> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>The auxiliary heater used in the diesel engines of Alfa are not to be
>>compared with a parking heater that are quite common in Scandinavia for
>>example.

>
>
> If by 'parking heater' you mean the ones where you plug them into the
> mains to heat the car then I wasn't meaning those.


Or on petrol.

>>Out of experience I can tell you that driving down a steep and
>>slippery mountain (only 1st and 2nd gear) for half an hour with a cold
>>engine (JTD) with outside temperatures of -20 deg C doesn't heat up the
>>interior very much, not to a pleasant temperature, though there is a
>>little warm air that makes that your fingers don't freeze off :-)
>>
>>
>>>The most significant engine cooler on a faultless 156, especially in
>>>cooler weather, is the aircon. It is entirely capable of making a warm
>>>engine cool. If you leave it on Auto fan control all year round (as I
>>>do) you might not realise what's really going on temperature wise
>>>unless you check the engine water temp. The 156 A/C (on Auto fan
>>>control) ramps up slowly on cold mornings to give the engine some
>>>chance to heat up but it's not perfect and can be overcome by setting
>>>a large demand on the temperature control. I've seen me drive for tens
>>>of miles and the water temp stay low then turn down the A/C and watch
>>>it rise to a more normal temp. Switch it on again and it drops.
>>>Depends how hot you want the cabin to be. It also depends on how hard
>>>you are driving!

>>
>>Well, in fact your air con provides heat to the cooling system, not
>>directly though. As the cooler of the engine is mounted in front of the
>>radiator it will give some heat to the cooling system of the engine.
>>Cooling down the interior means heating up the cooler of the air con.

>
>
> ? I'm talking about 'cooler weather' when you're *heating* the cabin
> and thus drawing heat from the heater matrix which is fed from engine
> coolant IIRC. You're referring to chilling the cabin - I've not found
> that to have any effect on engine temperature. My loose reference to
> '156 A/C' really means the whole climate control system (heating and
> cooling).


Well you were referring to driving with and without the air con on a
certain day with cool weather. I was actually wondering what mechanism
triggers the effect that you mentioned. The air con itself doesn't take
any heat from the cooling system (and because the outside temperature of
the air is low the air con doesn't have to work very hard). Maybe the
climate control will add some hot air from the heater to the interior to
maintain the temperature? I don't have any explanation for the effect
you mentioned.

My 147 JTD always stays at a 90 deg C no matter what the outside
temperature is or what the performance is that she has to deliver. On my
previous cars it was always variable between the 70 and 105 deg C. I
don't know if it is just a adaptation in the meter, another type of
thermostat or a different point where the engine temperature is
measured, or that the engine really stays at 90 deg C all the way.

>>For that reason the fan will be switched on frequently even when the
>>engine is still cold. Shouldn't be to much of a problem if the
>>thermostat works correctly.
>>
>>
>>>Wouldn't surprise me if this thread always pops up at the start of
>>>Autumn with a converse thread at the start of Summer!!

>>
>>Yep, that is when malfunctioning of the thermostat is noticeable.

>
>
> I've only experienced thermostat malfunctions that were noticeable at
> any time of the year.


I had it twice that the thermostat was not closing anymore all the way,
no trouble in the summer but in autumn it was noticeable. When you start
to notice that the heater is not able to give some extra push you mostly
have an problem with the thermostat.

Arjan
  #10  
Old September 17th 04, 09:34 PM
Zathras
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:10:25 +0200, Arjan Renting >
wrote:

>On 16-9-2004 18:53, Zathras wrote:

<Snip>
>> If by 'parking heater' you mean the ones where you plug them into the
>> mains to heat the car then I wasn't meaning those.

>
>Or on petrol.


Indeed..and diesel powered heaters in some cases too (usually
trucks/vans etc).

<Snip>
>> ? I'm talking about 'cooler weather' when you're *heating* the cabin
>> and thus drawing heat from the heater matrix which is fed from engine
>> coolant IIRC. You're referring to chilling the cabin - I've not found
>> that to have any effect on engine temperature. My loose reference to
>> '156 A/C' really means the whole climate control system (heating and
>> cooling).

<Snip>

> I don't have any explanation for the effect
>you mentioned.


Easy to test yourself. Drive the car until the temp is 90. Stop and
leave the car idling. Turn the A/C (climate controls..whatever you
like to call them) temp to max. Turn the fan to max. Watch how quick
the engine water temperature falls. 5 minutes should be enough for a
significant change. This technique could often get you home in the old
days if you broke a fan belt. It's VERY effective at cooling the
engine.

>My 147 JTD always stays at a 90 deg C no matter what the outside
>temperature is or what the performance is that she has to deliver. On my
>previous cars it was always variable between the 70 and 105 deg C. I
>don't know if it is just a adaptation in the meter, another type of
>thermostat or a different point where the engine temperature is
>measured, or that the engine really stays at 90 deg C all the way.


If you suddenly drive very hard, the engine must produce more heat and
heat up the water before the thermostat can react. It does appear
quite well controlled on the 156 but I can still see the temperature
rise a little within a mile of booting it. Falls back quite quickly
when I slow down and often to below where I started due to the delayed
reactions of the thermostat.

Your car could have a very heavily damped meter (Alfa meters seem to
have character of their own). I don't have enough experience of the
147 to comment accurately on your specific case.

<Snip>
>> I've only experienced thermostat malfunctions that were noticeable at
>> any time of the year.

>
>I had it twice that the thermostat was not closing anymore all the way,
>no trouble in the summer but in autumn it was noticeable. When you start
>to notice that the heater is not able to give some extra push you mostly
>have an problem with the thermostat.


My (non Alfa!) experience has only been where the car doesn't heat up
very much at all (temp gauge at 1/4 expected) or car has overheated.
Not a partial fail like you seem to have had which, I agree, would be
as you say.

--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email without 'Alfa' in subject are auto-deleted..sorry!)
 




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