A Spark is a Spark is a Spark

In article
. net>,
y_p_w > wrote:

> > Okay, why don't you explain for us the reason that copper is used
> > in a spark plug?
>
> I'll explain. It's a copper core inside the insulator that serves
> as a conductor between the center electrode and the contact. There
> may also be a resistor somewhere in between to reduce electromagnetic
> interference that could screw up electronics including radio
> reception.

Well, ummmm... Sorry, there is no answer to the question there.

Funny though, Mr. RV hasn't made an attempt.

> >>Names used generally refer to the plating not the core.
> >
> >
> > Do you seriously believe that "copper spark plugs" actually have
> > a copper plating somewhere, and for gods sake, don't tell us it's
> > on one of the electrodes.
>
> A copper plating would corrode and and/or erode quickly under such
> conditions.

Yes indeed it would.
Which has to make one wonder why an 'expert' like Mr. RV would
make such a statement.

<snip>

In article >,
JazzMan > wrote:


> They aren't bad for racing. In fact, they were developed by
> Porsche for the 917-30 race program. The 917-30 used the engine
> as a stressed member of the chassis, basically bolting the rear
> suspension and body work to it instead of having a frame. This
> design meant that you had to disassemble the whole car to change
> the plugs, so the platinum plugs were developed so that they could
> go a whole season on one set without changing them.

Well, ya know there's always going to be one obscure application
that breaks he rule...

But thanks for pointing out that it was for longevity reasons and
NOT some mish-mosh about combustion chambers and/or compression
ratio.

I have vivid memories of watching the 917s race at Road America
in the early 70s...

> > 2. Why are some cars really fussy about the type of plugs? I've heard
> > of Hondas starting to run funny after a few hundred miles if anything
> > but NGKs are installed in them, and one person had a VW Golf that ran
> > funny with anything but a certain Bosch silver core plug. I realize
> > that modern ignition systems can monitor spark performance and make
> > adjustments, but shouldn't that make them less fussy about plugs, not
> > more?
>
> I know that the Fiero DIS systems will not run properly on
> the platinum plugs for more than a few thousand miles before
> the plugs are junk. Other cars seem to work just fine on them.

Including double platinum Delco or Autolite plugs?

In article
. net>,
y_p_w > wrote:


> > The higher pressures inside the combustion chamber can and do
> > cause the platinum to fall off. It's not a solid platinum core,
> > the platinum is but a small piece fused to the center and ground
> > (in the case of double platinum) electrode.
> > Racers tend to NOT want bits of foreign metal floating around
> > inside their engines.
> > If an engine appears to run better on a platinum spark plug, it
> > really only is a case of [it] covering up a different problem
> > that has gone undiagnosed and/or unrepaired to begin with.
> > This last part is where I believe "RV" is coming from.
>
> The quality of the plug can make a difference. I've heard bad
> things about Bosch platinum plugs in Japanese cars. Something
> about the superthin platinum electrode buried flush with the
> insulator melting away. NGK and Denso seem to have the highest
> quality platinum plugs.

Bosch platinum plugs should be avoided no matter what the
application, Japanese, Euro or domestic.

> Besides - lots of weekend racers like to swap out their wear
> parts/fluids often. A standard plug will probably survive a
> few race weekends and would be cheap to replace.

Agreed 100%

> >>2. Why are some cars really fussy about the type of plugs? I've heard
> >>of Hondas starting to run funny after a few hundred miles if anything
> >>but NGKs are installed in them, and one person had a VW Golf that ran
> >>funny with anything but a certain Bosch silver core plug.
> >
> >
> > Many times, other brands of replacement spark plugs are close but
> > not quite exactly the same as what the OEM designed and installed.
> > This is why sticking to what came in it from the factory will get
> > you in less trouble than anything else.
> > Spending some time with a stack of spark plug catalogs can be
> > quite revealing; one part number fits various heat ranges in one
> > brand where numerous part numbers cover those same applications
> > when looked up by specific OEM applications.
> > It's nothing more than inventory slight of hand...
> >
> >
> >>I realize
> >>that modern ignition systems can monitor spark performance and make
> >>adjustments, but shouldn't that make them less fussy about plugs, not
> >>more?
> >
> >
> > Timing is adjusted, fuel is adjusted but the spark itself is not
> > adjusted. The spark can be monitored for whether or not it
> > occurred and complete combustion took place (miss-fire detection)
> > but that's about it.
>
> Once the rotor hits the point, what else can be done? Of course
> my current car has a distributorless ignition system.

There may be some new things in the future, but for now, not
much...

aarcuda69062 wrote:
>
> In article >,
> JazzMan > wrote:
>
> > They aren't bad for racing. In fact, they were developed by
> > Porsche for the 917-30 race program. The 917-30 used the engine
> > as a stressed member of the chassis, basically bolting the rear
> > suspension and body work to it instead of having a frame. This
> > design meant that you had to disassemble the whole car to change
> > the plugs, so the platinum plugs were developed so that they could
> > go a whole season on one set without changing them.
>
> Well, ya know there's always going to be one obscure application
> that breaks he rule...
>
> But thanks for pointing out that it was for longevity reasons and
> NOT some mish-mosh about combustion chambers and/or compression
> ratio.
>
> I have vivid memories of watching the 917s race at Road America
> in the early 70s...
>
> > > 2. Why are some cars really fussy about the type of plugs? I've heard
> > > of Hondas starting to run funny after a few hundred miles if anything
> > > but NGKs are installed in them, and one person had a VW Golf that ran
> > > funny with anything but a certain Bosch silver core plug. I realize
> > > that modern ignition systems can monitor spark performance and make
> > > adjustments, but shouldn't that make them less fussy about plugs, not
> > > more?
> >
> > I know that the Fiero DIS systems will not run properly on
> > the platinum plugs for more than a few thousand miles before
> > the plugs are junk. Other cars seem to work just fine on them.
>
> Including double platinum Delco or Autolite plugs?

My experience has been that none of the platinum plugs
last in the Fiero DIS application.

JazzMan
--
************************************************** ********
Please reply to jsavage"at"airmail.net.
Curse those darned bulk e-mailers!
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************************************************** ********

AAR, sorry I got you into this, used plain ole Auto lite A22's in my 64 Max
wedge,for an entire season, used to chanfe them from guilt, 400 runs! 12.5:1
CR for real.
"aarcuda69062" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> JazzMan > wrote:
>
>
>> They aren't bad for racing. In fact, they were developed by
>> Porsche for the 917-30 race program. The 917-30 used the engine
>> as a stressed member of the chassis, basically bolting the rear
>> suspension and body work to it instead of having a frame. This
>> design meant that you had to disassemble the whole car to change
>> the plugs, so the platinum plugs were developed so that they could
>> go a whole season on one set without changing them.
>
> Well, ya know there's always going to be one obscure application
> that breaks he rule...
>
> But thanks for pointing out that it was for longevity reasons and
> NOT some mish-mosh about combustion chambers and/or compression
> ratio.
>
> I have vivid memories of watching the 917s race at Road America
> in the early 70s...
>
>> > 2. Why are some cars really fussy about the type of plugs? I've heard
>> > of Hondas starting to run funny after a few hundred miles if anything
>> > but NGKs are installed in them, and one person had a VW Golf that ran
>> > funny with anything but a certain Bosch silver core plug. I realize
>> > that modern ignition systems can monitor spark performance and make
>> > adjustments, but shouldn't that make them less fussy about plugs, not
>> > more?
>>
>> I know that the Fiero DIS systems will not run properly on
>> the platinum plugs for more than a few thousand miles before
>> the plugs are junk. Other cars seem to work just fine on them.
>
> Including double platinum Delco or Autolite plugs?
>



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On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:24:09 GMT, aarcuda69062
> wrote:

>In article
.net>,
> y_p_w > wrote:
>
>> > Okay, why don't you explain for us the reason that copper is used
>> > in a spark plug?
>>
>> I'll explain. It's a copper core inside the insulator that serves
>> as a conductor between the center electrode and the contact. There
>> may also be a resistor somewhere in between to reduce electromagnetic
>> interference that could screw up electronics including radio
>> reception.
>
>Well, ummmm... Sorry, there is no answer to the question there.
>

**** off bunghole

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:17:22 GMT, aarcuda69062
> wrote:

>In article >,
> RV > wrote:
>
>> >Wrong again.
>> >Then again, no one in their right mind would use "racing" as the
>> >basis for explaining something that relates to modern day
>> >emissions durability requirements.
>>
>> Horse****, youve never raced and havent a clue about it.
>
>I'll repeat;
>no one in their right mind would use "racing" as the
>basis for explaining something that relates to modern day
>emissions durability requirements.

> that relates to modern day emissions durability requirements.

Thats just drivel

>
>
>> >Tell ya what, I have every major spark plug manufacturers catalog
>> >on the shelf, go ahead and cite the maker and catalog page number
>> >where *they* recommend using a platinum spark plug in a racing or
>> >any other heavy duty application.
>> >
>>
>> Open your eyes for a change.
>> Any vehicle that specifies a plug in the book that is a plat plug.
>
>And they are?

They two holes in the front of your head stupid.

>
>> >> >
>> >> >> So its CC config (valve postion) or CR fuel that determines if you use
>> >> >> plat plugs.
>> >> >
>> >> >Malarky.
>> >>
>> >> So we can assume you are not a qualified motor mechanic
>> >
>> >Got anything else?
>> >
>>
>> More than you so far.
>
>Not really. All you've offered so far is some techno-babble
>about combustion chambers and compression ratios.

All youve done is troll.

>
>> >> >
>> >> >> If you have the CC that is configured the clean the plug tips, then
>> >> >> use them., if you have heaps of CR then the heat will keep them clean
>> >> >> enough such as with racing.
>> >> >
>> >> >Double malarky.
>> >>
>> >> So we can assume you are not a qualified motor mechanic
>> >
>> >Yawn.
>> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> If you dont have the CR for them, or dont have the CC for them to keep
>> >> >> the plat plugs clean, they will most likely fouled or as we say for
>> >> >> plat plugs, contaminated.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Yes we motor mechanics like me who are qualified with 24 yrs working
>> >> experience in the trade.
>> >
>> >Oh. Guess my 35 trumps your 24.
>> >ASE Certified Master w/L1, Chevrolet Certified Master,
>> >GM Certified Master, Snap-On/Sun Electric Training Manager,
>> >Senior referee for the State of Wisconsin IM-240 program.
>>
>> But raced nothin.
>
>And racing proves what again?
>You're some big shot "racer" so we should all kiss your ass and
>swallow whatever bull **** offered?
>Ain't gonna happen.

Too dense.

>
>> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> If you have the CC config for plat plugs they are good to go at all
>> >> >> engine temps as in standard cars that use them, if you have big CR as
>> >> >> in racing, then you may need to use coppers to warm the engine, then
>> >> >> swap to plats, or you may have trouble starting and dirty a new set of
>> >> >> plats starting it.
>> >> >
>> >> >Who invents this crap?
>> >>
>> >> Engineers.
>> >
>> >Hardly.
>> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> Hope that helps.
>> >> >
>> >> >I don't think it did...
>> >>
>> >> No surprise its no help to you.
>> >
>> >I'll pass on your help. So should others.
>> >
>>
>> Ill pass on your trolling and lack of any technical points to refute
>> any of what I wrote.
>
>And your technical points can be found where?

You dispute it, then you prove it or pull your head in dufus.

>
>> Just some idiotic crap about plug catalogues you dont have the sense
>> to read properly.
>
>Picking a spark plug according to application from a
>manufacturers catalog is "crap" is it?
>i can see why you have time for all this "racing" nonsense, I'll
>bet that your mechanicing business leaves you with plenty of free
>time.

You are so dense you have no concept of the bleed down of technology
that came from motor racing.
Your are dumber than dog**** no doubt about it.

>
>> >If you care to explain the physics of your concocted beliefs,
>> >have at it.
>>
>> Make your point or admit your dont have any argument to dispute
>> anythuing I worte, not one line of it.
>
>Again; numerous vehicles have come OEM with both platinum and
>non-platinum spark plugs with NO combustion chamber re-design and
>NO compression ratio change.
>Pretty much blows your 'theories' out of the water.

Pretty much shows youre pig ignorant.

>
>> > Bear in mind, there are quite a few vehicle
>> >applications that have and have had both platinum and
>> >non-platinum spark plugs specified by the factory, only
>> >difference is model year; same compression ratio, same combustion
>> >chamber design, same valve placement.
>> >So stop with the pseudo-technical bull**** already.
>>
>> And you dont have the sense god gave the common dog to figure out what
>> that means obviously.
>
>Sure I do, it means that you're full of ****.

Wrong again stupid

>
>> 35 yrs on tools, bull****, youre a child.
>
>'Scuze me?
>And your 20 years at the local Jiffy-Lube is good for what?

We dont have "jiffy lube" here you bunghole.

But Id suggest they are more qualified than a mop jockey like you.

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:38:14 GMT, aarcuda69062
> wrote:

>In article
.net>,
> y_p_w > wrote:
>
>
>> > The higher pressures inside the combustion chamber can and do
>> > cause the platinum to fall off. It's not a solid platinum core,
>> > the platinum is but a small piece fused to the center and ground
>> > (in the case of double platinum) electrode.
>> > Racers tend to NOT want bits of foreign metal floating around
>> > inside their engines.
>> > If an engine appears to run better on a platinum spark plug, it
>> > really only is a case of [it] covering up a different problem
>> > that has gone undiagnosed and/or unrepaired to begin with.
>> > This last part is where I believe "RV" is coming from.
>>
>> The quality of the plug can make a difference. I've heard bad
>> things about Bosch platinum plugs in Japanese cars. Something
>> about the superthin platinum electrode buried flush with the
>> insulator melting away. NGK and Denso seem to have the highest
>> quality platinum plugs.
>
>Bosch platinum plugs should be avoided no matter what the
>application, Japanese, Euro or domestic.

Bull****
Youve never seen a European car let alone worked on one.

>
>> Besides - lots of weekend racers like to swap out their wear
>> parts/fluids often. A standard plug will probably survive a
>> few race weekends and would be cheap to replace.
>
>Agreed 100%
>
>> >>2. Why are some cars really fussy about the type of plugs? I've heard
>> >>of Hondas starting to run funny after a few hundred miles if anything
>> >>but NGKs are installed in them, and one person had a VW Golf that ran
>> >>funny with anything but a certain Bosch silver core plug.
>> >
>> >
>> > Many times, other brands of replacement spark plugs are close but
>> > not quite exactly the same as what the OEM designed and installed.
>> > This is why sticking to what came in it from the factory will get
>> > you in less trouble than anything else.
>> > Spending some time with a stack of spark plug catalogs can be
>> > quite revealing; one part number fits various heat ranges in one
>> > brand where numerous part numbers cover those same applications
>> > when looked up by specific OEM applications.
>> > It's nothing more than inventory slight of hand...
>> >
>> >
>> >>I realize
>> >>that modern ignition systems can monitor spark performance and make
>> >>adjustments, but shouldn't that make them less fussy about plugs, not
>> >>more?
>> >
>> >
>> > Timing is adjusted, fuel is adjusted but the spark itself is not
>> > adjusted. The spark can be monitored for whether or not it
>> > occurred and complete combustion took place (miss-fire detection)
>> > but that's about it.
>>
>> Once the rotor hits the point, what else can be done? Of course
>> my current car has a distributorless ignition system.
>
>There may be some new things in the future, but for now, not
>much...

For you all there will be is more vomit to mop up.

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:31:44 GMT, aarcuda69062
> wrote:

>In article >,
> JazzMan > wrote:
>
>
>> They aren't bad for racing. In fact, they were developed by
>> Porsche for the 917-30 race program. The 917-30 used the engine
>> as a stressed member of the chassis, basically bolting the rear
>> suspension and body work to it instead of having a frame. This
>> design meant that you had to disassemble the whole car to change
>> the plugs, so the platinum plugs were developed so that they could
>> go a whole season on one set without changing them.
>
>Well, ya know there's always going to be one obscure application
>that breaks he rule...

Glug glug glug, and down you go to the bottom like a stone.

aarcuda69062 wrote:

> In article >,
> JazzMan > wrote:
>
>
>
>>They aren't bad for racing. In fact, they were developed by
>>Porsche for the 917-30 race program. The 917-30 used the engine
>>as a stressed member of the chassis, basically bolting the rear
>>suspension and body work to it instead of having a frame. This
>>design meant that you had to disassemble the whole car to change
>>the plugs, so the platinum plugs were developed so that they could
>>go a whole season on one set without changing them.
>
>
> Well, ya know there's always going to be one obscure application
> that breaks he rule...
>
> But thanks for pointing out that it was for longevity reasons and
> NOT some mish-mosh about combustion chambers and/or compression
> ratio.

I do agree that the large majority of the platinum or iridium
plugs spec'ed by manufacturers is for the longevity for both
emissions and marketing purposes. It also helps with V engines
where the back plugs can be a real PITA to reach.

BTW - back to the copper thing - apparently one reason for
copper cores is that copper conducts heat exceptionally well,
and the core will help to transfer heat from the center
electrode.

There are a few car models that only spec these oddball double
ground platinum electrode plugs. I think the larger gap and
hotter spark of my '95 Integra GS-R engine might have resulted
in premature erosion of standard nickel-alloy electrodes (i.e.
before the standard Honda 30K change period). But it's not as
if a suitable standard plug isn't going to work - just not a
standard interval. I've heard of weekend racers deliberately
going with standard plugs in cars factory spec'ed for plats.

Of course I'm not trying to lend any creedence to our fou
mouthed friend. :-)