What the . . . ? Fattie adjusting screws!

On 12/8/2004 11:57 AM Bill Spiliotopoulos stood on a soap-box and
preached to the unwashed masses:

>>Back to my question: where does a squirrel find new or really good
>>condition stock rockers w/ the stock M8 thread?
>
>
> I don't know where you can find, I live in Greece so I won't be able to help
> on this one.
> But I believe that most probably you wouldn't have a problem using your old
> rockers on the new shafts. It is normal for the rockers to get polished at
> the load side (bottom) but this is not to worry, expept if they are really
> really worn and they have noticeable sideways when fited on the shafts.

This makes sense. I memory has it that the bearing surfaces were more
than polished, they showed signs of fretting. Certainly the shafts
showed fretting. I'll take another look at the rockers ...I might very
well be able to use them! Thanks Bill.

--
--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westphalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)"
KG6RCR

Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote:
> On 12/8/2004 1:10 AM Jan stood on a soap-box and preached to the
> unwashed masses:
>
>>
>> "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott" wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> The old engine's rockers have a lot of fretting where the rocker
>>> bears against the rocker axle, so I don't want to use them.
>>
>>
>>
>> Turn the axle shafts "upside down" to get the rocker to ride against
>> a smooth, non-worn side of it.
>> Note that you may need to drill the stud holes a little bigger (not
>> all the way through!) to allow room for the thicker base of ths
>> stud. Study the other end of the hole, you'll see a step cut.
>>
>> Or just buy new shafts or whole assemblies and eliminate all your
>> problems
>
> These /are/ new shafts/assemblies on the new engine and are in tip-top
> condition. I want to stick on the Berg swivel feet but they are set up
> for M8 threads, whereas these new rockers are threaded for M10. So how
> would buying new assemblies help? I may be overlooking something.
>
> --

I thought the newer rockers were 9mm


RT
--
E-mail=fullname-at-telus.net

On 12/8/2004 1:34 PM Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote:

> On 12/8/2004 9:22 AM Hal stood on a soap-box and preached to the
> unwashed masses:
>
>>
>> "Back to my question: where does a squirrel find new or really good
>> condition stock rockers w/ the stock M8 thread?"
>>
>> No idea. Have you confirmed that berg does not offer the swivel
>> adjusters in the larger thread? If you haven't run the M8 sized ones
>> yet maybe they will exchange them for you?
>
>
> They don't list anything but the M8 on their site, and they've not yet
> responded to my e-mailed inquiry of yesterday. We await patiently.
>

Update: Berg Co. replies that Brazilian rockers use M9 thread, and they
don't make their swivel footsies in anything other than M8. I was
mistaken about these being M10, mis-read the tap.

--
--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westphalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)"
KG6RCR

Umm,is this Mexi-motor running hydro-lifters?If so why worry about the
facetting?The valve adjusting is being done by the lifters,right?
"Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott"
et> wrote in message
...
> On 12/8/2004 3:50 AM Bill Spiliotopoulos stood on a soap-box and preached
> to the unwashed masses:
>
>> For a stock application, stock rockers and adjusting screws are fine. It
>> is normal for the adjusting screws to become faceted.
>> Anyway, either with the Berg adjusting screws you would have to check
>> valve clearances on every oil change, to motitor exhaust valve
>> stretching. In case you decide to install them, keep in mind that you
>> should keep the stock valve geometry, and to do this you will have to
>> grind the rocker arms. Do not put spacers under the rocker towers.
>>
>
> The advantage to the swivels is that the ends of the adjusting screws do
> not get faceted. As I understand it, once the tip is faceted, accurate
> valve adjustment is very hard to accomplish. So I'm either replacing
> adjusting screws (M10 ones? are they easily available?) or living with
> sloppy valve adjustment.
>
> So the Berg setup -- shims under the towers -- is bogus? I know that the
> valve geometry must get disturbed by the shims, but this is a 1600DP on a
> bus with standard valves and non-ratio rockers, etc. I don't think that
> this slight change to the geometry will affect my performance.
>
> Back to my question: where does a squirrel find new or really good
> condition stock rockers w/ the stock M8 thread?
>
> --
> Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
> 71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
> 84 Westphalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)"
> KG6RCR
> ------------------------------------
> Today's Deep Thought:
>
> Sevareid's Rule: "The chief cause of problems is solutions."
> ------------------------------------

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 13:37:47 -0800, "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott"
et> wrote:

> Certainly the shafts showed fretting.
>I'll take another look at the rockers ...I might very
>well be able to use them! Thanks Bill.

I have 473,000 miles on my original cylinder heads, rockers and
shafts. The word you seek to describe the wear is not "fretting" but
rather "galling."
I have plenty of galling that is now 180º away from the wear surfaces
on my original rocker arm bushings. Having deleted the cylinder head
gaskets as required by VW's Type 4 engine technical service bulletin,
spacers were required to maintain optimal valve train geometry. Rocker
support shims are not rocket science and are no big deal, your shims
just need sufficient surface area to keep the stands happy. The 8mm
rocker arms can be ground down .060" under the threaded area that
accepts the swivelfoot adjusters to help you achieve sufficient
clearance. I use the 911 elephant feet, accept no crapola subsitutes
from China. They have allowed me extended high rpm operation for well
over 25,000 miles of easy valve adjustments and ridiculously decreased
guide wear. Wish I had done this 25 years ago.
Colin

On 12/9/2004 8:46 PM ilambert wrote:

> Umm,is this Mexi-motor running hydro-lifters?If so why worry about the
> facetting?The valve adjusting is being done by the lifters,right?

Nope, nope, not a juicer; just good old-school aluminum and steel. No
fluids involved.

--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westphalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)"
KG6RCR
------------------------------------
Today's Deep Thought:

For Sale: Parachute. Only used once, never opened. Small stain.
------------------------------------

On 12/9/2004 10:13 PM Colin wrote:

> On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 13:37:47 -0800, "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott"
> et> wrote:
>
>
>>Certainly the shafts showed fretting.
>>I'll take another look at the rockers ...I might very
>>well be able to use them! Thanks Bill.
>
>
> I have 473,000 miles on my original cylinder heads, rockers and
> shafts. The word you seek to describe the wear is not "fretting" but
> rather "galling."

Fretting, galling -- I don't know enough about metallurgy and machines
to know how to tell the difference. The online glossaries aren't much
help for me:

Fretting
Action that results in surface damage, especially in a corrosive
environment, when there is relative motion between solid surfaces in
contact under pressure.

Galling
The damaging of one or both metallic surfaces by removal of particles
from localized areas due to seizure during sliding friction. ALSO
Developing a condition on the rubbing surface of one or both mating
parts where excessive friction between high spots results in localized
welding with substantial spalling and a further roughening of the surface.

<snip>

> Rocker
> support shims are not rocket science and are no big deal, your shims
> just need sufficient surface area to keep the stands happy.

The Gene Berg kit comes with useful shims.

> The 8mm
> rocker arms can be ground down .060" under the threaded area that
> accepts the swivelfoot adjusters to help you achieve sufficient
> clearance.

How did you grind them? John Connolly sez to grind them lengthwise, not
crosswise, or the rockers will be weakened.

> I use the 911 elephant feet, accept no crapola subsitutes
> from China. They have allowed me extended high rpm operation for well
> over 25,000 miles of easy valve adjustments and ridiculously decreased
> guide wear. Wish I had done this 25 years ago.
> Colin

Sign me,

Hoping to do this now.

--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westphalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)"
KG6RCR

"Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott"
et> wrote in message
...
>
> How did you grind them? John Connolly sez to grind them lengthwise, not
> crosswise, or the rockers will be weakened.
>
>

............I have the 911 adjuster screws from Aircooled.Net and when I
learned that I had ground the rockers in the wrong direction, I used a
******* file to remove the wrong direction grinding marks on the rockers.
The only way that I could ever grind them in the correct direction woud be
with a small dremel bit instead of my bench grinder. I too would like to
know how grind them properly and what type of tool to use.

BTW..........I have about 6 or 7 thousand miles on them now without having
any problems.

I use a grinding stone tool for a drill, for coarse grinding. I suppose a
bench grinder is even better.
Then when I am about where I want, I polish the grinded area with a 80 grit
flap-wheel attached on the drill, on the correct direction (lengthwise). I
also remove all sharp edges around the cut. Be carefull, the flap-wheel
removes material pretty fast, so do not overdo it.

Bill,
'67 Bug.

"Tim Rogers" > wrote in message
...
> "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott"
> et> wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> How did you grind them? John Connolly sez to grind them lengthwise, not
>> crosswise, or the rockers will be weakened.
>>
>>
>
> ...........I have the 911 adjuster screws from Aircooled.Net and when I
> learned that I had ground the rockers in the wrong direction, I used a
> ******* file to remove the wrong direction grinding marks on the rockers.
> The only way that I could ever grind them in the correct direction woud be
> with a small dremel bit instead of my bench grinder. I too would like to
> know how grind them properly and what type of tool to use.
>
> BTW..........I have about 6 or 7 thousand miles on them now without having
> any problems.
>
>

"Bill Spiliotopoulos" > wrote in message
...
>
> I use a grinding stone tool for a drill, for coarse grinding. I suppose a
> bench grinder is even better.
> Then when I am about where I want, I polish the grinded area with a 80
grit
> flap-wheel attached on the drill, on the correct direction (lengthwise). I
> also remove all sharp edges around the cut. Be carefull, the flap-wheel
> removes material pretty fast, so do not overdo it.
>
>

...........Thanks Bill!