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Strange De-icer problem



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 20th 05, 04:47 PM
Brigitte
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Posts: n/a
Default Strange De-icer problem

The de-icer on my 99 T&C won't shoot liquid at the windshield unless the
temperature is above freezing. This is also true of the sprayer at the rear
window.

The reservoir has never had water in it. I always use washer fluid rated
for sub zero temps. Any idea what could be causing this?

Any and all input is appreciated.

Thanks,
Brigitte


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  #2  
Old January 21st 05, 04:59 PM
Sportster4Eva
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Posts: n/a
Default

Brigitte wrote:

> The de-icer on my 99 T&C won't shoot liquid at the windshield unless the
> temperature is above freezing. This is also true of the sprayer at the rear
> window.
>
> The reservoir has never had water in it. I always use washer fluid rated
> for sub zero temps. Any idea what could be causing this?
>
> Any and all input is appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Brigitte
>
>

Pour part of a bottle of HEET in with the fluid you just put in. The
stuff will squirt when it's below zero then..
I believe Prestone makes it. It's windshield washer antifreeze.

--
Paul
'91 XL1200
'77 GL1000 (W.I.P.)
"I feel more like I do now than when I got here"

  #3  
Old January 23rd 05, 11:16 AM
Gideon
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Posts: n/a
Default

Brigitte,

As somebody else has mentioned, Heet works well to improve the
anti-freezing capability of your windshield washer fluid (WWF). Heet
is really intended as a gasoline additive, but that doesn't matter since
Heet is pure alcohol - methyl alcohol or isopropyl alcohol - and it works
well for your windshield washer fluid (WWF) since the main ingredient
in that WWF is methyl alcohol.

There are common warnings about Heet and WWF damaging painted
surfaces, but I don't know how true these are. I'm pretty certain that
both will remove the protective wax that most of us put on our car finishes.
I also know that in the past I have observed auto paint finishes which
"blushed" (lightly dulled) when they came in contact with alcohols.
Modern paints are much more resilient, but I'd still feel very uncomfortable
getting pure Heet onto auto paint.

Heet costs about $2 for a 12 ounce container. I'm guessing that there
are other sources of alcohol which might work as well and be less
expensive and more common around the house. Common rubbing alcohols
are generally 70% isopropyl alcohol or 70% ethyl alcohol. They cost about
$0.50 to $1.00 per 16 ounce bottle and you are likely to already have some
around the house. The better grades are 90% alcohol and are about twice
as expensive. Some homeowers also have gallon containers of pure
methanol solvent for working with shellac. Obviously the pure methanol
solvent will work fine, and I am guessing that the rubbing alcohols should
also work.

I don't know why the manufacturers always use methanol as the alcohol
in their WWF. Possibly because it is the cheapest alcohol or possibly
because it works best. Still, I'm certain that any alcohol will function to
improve the antifreeze properties of your WWF.

Different brands of WWF will vary in how much methanol they contain
(this is the most expensive ingredient) and how well they will resist freezing.
WWF is mostly water, then some alcohol and finally some trace amounts
of detergent and pretty blue tint (so that you don't feel that you are paying
$2 for a gallon of water).

The definition of freezing is also a bit vague - these solutions will begin to
turn slushy before they "freeze" according to the manufacturer's definition
of freezing. That slush won't move through the thin hoses very well. Often,
you can pinch the rubber WWF hoses in cold weather and fell the ice
crystals in the lines. Also, the nozzle exits will freeze - either from snow
or from the water that is left behind when the alcohol in the WWF evaporates
at the nozzle exit and leaves pure water behind. It is ALWAYS the lines
and nozzles which have freezing problems first.

Pouring warm water over the lines and over the washer nozzles will sometimes
provide a temporary fix when your windshield washers aren't working. Don't
use hot water - getting it on your windshield can crack the glass and getting
it on your painted surfaces can damage the paint or damage the bonding of
the underlying primer. Water at body temperature (about 100 degrees F)
is sufficiently warm to unfreeze WWF, even if the WWF is at zero degrees.
(I'd still avoid getting the water on glass or paint).

I've used a garden sprinkler can full of warm water to very successfully help
folks with doors that are frozen shut, windshield washer lines which are
frozen, gas compartments doors which are frozen, etc.

I'd suggest experimenting with Heet or another source of alcohol to determine
the minimum amount that you need to add to get the antifreeze level that you
want. If I were buying Heet, then I'd probably buy the "standard" Heet which
contains methanol, although either version should work.

My bit of pragmatic advice: You may be able to avoid a lot of hassle
and experimenting by simply quizzing your friends, neighbors and family who
live near you. Find out who has extremely good luck avoiding WWF freeze-ups,
check to see what brand of WWF they are buying, and buy some for yourself.
Other T&C owners would be optimal.

Try to identify folks who have situations similar to yours - garaged vehicle
vs vehicle parked out in the open, driving distance to work, driving speed to
work, etc. Obviously, a garaged vehicle will be warmer than one sitting
outside. Also, a garaged vehicle will stay warmer if it is driven slowly and
a shorter distance to work or school in the morning. A warmer vehicle
and components are less likely to have freezing problems.

I can't recommend any particular brand since I've had very good luck with
a variety of brands of WWF while living in a Northern state. This includes
my '89 Grand Voyager and my '02 Town and Country. Obviously my
situations must be different from yours.

You may also want to do a bit of experimenting with your current WWF.
Get two containers with screw on lids and put some WWF in each. Put
one outside and put the other in the garage. Observe fluids each morning
to determine if they look even slightly slushy. You must have lids on the
containers - otherwise alcohol will slowly evaporate and ruin the experiment.
This experiment will help you to determine if the manufacturer has fibbed
about the antifreeze level of their product. If so, then you can experiment
by adding various percents of auxillary alcohol.

Also, I know that this seems obvious, but please insure that your windshield
washer nozzles are not blocked by snow or ice. Also insure that the
methyl alcohol in your WWF isn't evaporating - this means a good lid and
seal on your WWF gallon bottle and a good lid and seal on your WWF
reservoir in the engine compartment. Also, are the folks who do your
oil change providing a free top-off of fluids, including WWF? Possibly
they are using the cheapest WWF they can provide.

Wind chill factors: Wind chill factors normally apply only to living
creatures. If you are standing outside in 20 degree weather with a strong
breeze, then you are going to feel as if it is much colder than 20 degrees.
The main reason for this is the fact that we always have a bit of moisture
on our skin and the wind evaporates that moisture. The evaporation steals
heat from our skin and can cause our skin to cool below the 20 degree
ambient temperature. Normally, an inanimate object such as a car does
not experience this effect. BUT, the nozzles and lines for your windshield
washers may be impacted by a wind chill factor (either from wind or from
the perceived wind cause by driving). WWF will be present on the tips of
the windshield wiper nozzles and some WWF may also splash onto
the lines. Air movement over this WWF may cause the alcohol content
to evaporate. This can drop the temperature below the ambient (air)
temperature. On the nozzle tips, the alcohol will evaporate and cool
the remaining water component of the WWF below freezing. This could
produce a thin layer of ice over the nozzle tip. (Any liquid which evaporates
will cool the surface that it is upon. This is why we cool down when
we have a liquid on our skin - water, sweat, rubbing alcohol - and it is
evaporated.)

There are urban legends about various solutions to WWF freeze-up. The
most common is adding copper tubing to the windshield washer lines and
routing the tubing over the exhaust manifold so that the WWF is warmed
by the engine heat. I have no knowledge of anybody who has successfully
done this. Plus, there are many '99 T&C's out there which are performing
well without such extreme measures. There definitely must be a SIMPLE
solution to your problem.


On the lighter side, I can tell you about the good old days when we had to
roll down our window while driving down the road, scoop snow off the roof
of the vehicle, and toss the snow onto the windshied to clean it with the
wipers. We also kept spray bottle of water/alcohol mix in the passanger
compartment so that we could stick our arm out of the window and spray
the windshield while driving. (We were young and poor and we used
the cheapest isopropyl rubbing alcohol that we could buy). Some of us
also remember the early after-market windshield washer systems which
had a small rubber bulb on the floor on the vehicle, generally to the left
of the gas, brake and clutch pedals. If you wanted to squirt WWF onto
your windshield, then you rapidly pumped the rubber bulb with your left
foot.

I hope all of this rambling helps you solve your problem.

Gideon

=========================

Brigitte wrote in message ...
The de-icer on my 99 T&C won't shoot liquid at the windshield unless the
temperature is above freezing. This is also true of the sprayer at the rear
window.

The reservoir has never had water in it. I always use washer fluid rated
for sub zero temps. Any idea what could be causing this?

Any and all input is appreciated.

Thanks,
Brigitte






  #4  
Old January 24th 05, 05:43 AM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 10:16:19 GMT, "Gideon" > wrote:

>Brigitte,
>
>As somebody else has mentioned, Heet works well to improve the
>anti-freezing capability of your windshield washer fluid (WWF). Heet
>is really intended as a gasoline additive, but that doesn't matter since
>Heet is pure alcohol - methyl alcohol or isopropyl alcohol - and it works
>well for your windshield washer fluid (WWF) since the main ingredient
>in that WWF is methyl alcohol.


Use HEET ISO. It is isopropyl, not methyl, and is much kinder to
paint.
>
>There are common warnings about Heet and WWF damaging painted
>surfaces, but I don't know how true these are. I'm pretty certain that
>both will remove the protective wax that most of us put on our car finishes.
>I also know that in the past I have observed auto paint finishes which
>"blushed" (lightly dulled) when they came in contact with alcohols.
>Modern paints are much more resilient, but I'd still feel very uncomfortable
>getting pure Heet onto auto paint.
>
>Heet costs about $2 for a 12 ounce container. I'm guessing that there
>are other sources of alcohol which might work as well and be less
>expensive and more common around the house. Common rubbing alcohols
>are generally 70% isopropyl alcohol or 70% ethyl alcohol. They cost about
>$0.50 to $1.00 per 16 ounce bottle and you are likely to already have some
>around the house. The better grades are 90% alcohol and are about twice
>as expensive. Some homeowers also have gallon containers of pure
>methanol solvent for working with shellac. Obviously the pure methanol
>solvent will work fine, and I am guessing that the rubbing alcohols should
>also work.
>
>I don't know why the manufacturers always use methanol as the alcohol
>in their WWF. Possibly because it is the cheapest alcohol or possibly
>because it works best. Still, I'm certain that any alcohol will function to
>improve the antifreeze properties of your WWF.
>
>Different brands of WWF will vary in how much methanol they contain
>(this is the most expensive ingredient) and how well they will resist freezing.
>WWF is mostly water, then some alcohol and finally some trace amounts
>of detergent and pretty blue tint (so that you don't feel that you are paying
>$2 for a gallon of water).
>

Why not? $1 for a 750ml bottle of water is not out of the ordinary if
it has a fancy name on it. Call it Perrier and it might rvrn be double
that.
>The definition of freezing is also a bit vague - these solutions will begin to
>turn slushy before they "freeze" according to the manufacturer's definition
>of freezing. That slush won't move through the thin hoses very well. Often,
>you can pinch the rubber WWF hoses in cold weather and fell the ice
>crystals in the lines. Also, the nozzle exits will freeze - either from snow
>or from the water that is left behind when the alcohol in the WWF evaporates
>at the nozzle exit and leaves pure water behind. It is ALWAYS the lines
>and nozzles which have freezing problems first.
>
>Pouring warm water over the lines and over the washer nozzles will sometimes
>provide a temporary fix when your windshield washers aren't working. Don't
>use hot water - getting it on your windshield can crack the glass and getting
>it on your painted surfaces can damage the paint or damage the bonding of
>the underlying primer. Water at body temperature (about 100 degrees F)
>is sufficiently warm to unfreeze WWF, even if the WWF is at zero degrees.
>(I'd still avoid getting the water on glass or paint).
>
>I've used a garden sprinkler can full of warm water to very successfully help
>folks with doors that are frozen shut, windshield washer lines which are
>frozen, gas compartments doors which are frozen, etc.
>
>I'd suggest experimenting with Heet or another source of alcohol to determine
>the minimum amount that you need to add to get the antifreeze level that you
>want. If I were buying Heet, then I'd probably buy the "standard" Heet which
>contains methanol, although either version should work.


Just buy "concentrated" wwf instead of "premix" and add less water. I
used to buy the concentrate 5 US gallons at a time in a cube like
battery acid used to come in.
>
>My bit of pragmatic advice: You may be able to avoid a lot of hassle
>and experimenting by simply quizzing your friends, neighbors and family who
>live near you. Find out who has extremely good luck avoiding WWF freeze-ups,
>check to see what brand of WWF they are buying, and buy some for yourself.
>Other T&C owners would be optimal.
>
>Try to identify folks who have situations similar to yours - garaged vehicle
>vs vehicle parked out in the open, driving distance to work, driving speed to
>work, etc. Obviously, a garaged vehicle will be warmer than one sitting
>outside. Also, a garaged vehicle will stay warmer if it is driven slowly and
>a shorter distance to work or school in the morning. A warmer vehicle
>and components are less likely to have freezing problems.
>
>I can't recommend any particular brand since I've had very good luck with
>a variety of brands of WWF while living in a Northern state. This includes
>my '89 Grand Voyager and my '02 Town and Country. Obviously my
>situations must be different from yours.
>
>You may also want to do a bit of experimenting with your current WWF.
>Get two containers with screw on lids and put some WWF in each. Put
>one outside and put the other in the garage. Observe fluids each morning
>to determine if they look even slightly slushy. You must have lids on the
>containers - otherwise alcohol will slowly evaporate and ruin the experiment.
>This experiment will help you to determine if the manufacturer has fibbed
>about the antifreeze level of their product. If so, then you can experiment
>by adding various percents of auxillary alcohol.
>
>Also, I know that this seems obvious, but please insure that your windshield
>washer nozzles are not blocked by snow or ice. Also insure that the
>methyl alcohol in your WWF isn't evaporating - this means a good lid and
>seal on your WWF gallon bottle and a good lid and seal on your WWF
>reservoir in the engine compartment. Also, are the folks who do your
>oil change providing a free top-off of fluids, including WWF? Possibly
>they are using the cheapest WWF they can provide.
>
>Wind chill factors: Wind chill factors normally apply only to living
>creatures. If you are standing outside in 20 degree weather with a strong
>breeze, then you are going to feel as if it is much colder than 20 degrees.
>The main reason for this is the fact that we always have a bit of moisture
>on our skin and the wind evaporates that moisture. The evaporation steals
>heat from our skin and can cause our skin to cool below the 20 degree
>ambient temperature. Normally, an inanimate object such as a car does
>not experience this effect. BUT, the nozzles and lines for your windshield
>washers may be impacted by a wind chill factor (either from wind or from
>the perceived wind cause by driving). WWF will be present on the tips of
>the windshield wiper nozzles and some WWF may also splash onto
>the lines. Air movement over this WWF may cause the alcohol content
>to evaporate. This can drop the temperature below the ambient (air)
>temperature. On the nozzle tips, the alcohol will evaporate and cool
>the remaining water component of the WWF below freezing. This could
>produce a thin layer of ice over the nozzle tip. (Any liquid which evaporates
>will cool the surface that it is upon. This is why we cool down when
>we have a liquid on our skin - water, sweat, rubbing alcohol - and it is
>evaporated.)
>
>There are urban legends about various solutions to WWF freeze-up. The
>most common is adding copper tubing to the windshield washer lines and
>routing the tubing over the exhaust manifold so that the WWF is warmed
>by the engine heat. I have no knowledge of anybody who has successfully
>done this. Plus, there are many '99 T&C's out there which are performing
>well without such extreme measures. There definitely must be a SIMPLE
>solution to your problem.
>
>
>On the lighter side, I can tell you about the good old days when we had to
>roll down our window while driving down the road, scoop snow off the roof
>of the vehicle, and toss the snow onto the windshied to clean it with the
>wipers. We also kept spray bottle of water/alcohol mix in the passanger
>compartment so that we could stick our arm out of the window and spray
>the windshield while driving. (We were young and poor and we used
>the cheapest isopropyl rubbing alcohol that we could buy). Some of us
>also remember the early after-market windshield washer systems which
>had a small rubber bulb on the floor on the vehicle, generally to the left
>of the gas, brake and clutch pedals. If you wanted to squirt WWF onto
>your windshield, then you rapidly pumped the rubber bulb with your left
>foot.
>
>I hope all of this rambling helps you solve your problem.
>
>Gideon
>
>=========================
>
>Brigitte wrote in message ...
>The de-icer on my 99 T&C won't shoot liquid at the windshield unless the
>temperature is above freezing. This is also true of the sprayer at the rear
>window.
>
>The reservoir has never had water in it. I always use washer fluid rated
>for sub zero temps. Any idea what could be causing this?
>
>Any and all input is appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>Brigitte
>
>
>
>
>


  #5  
Old January 24th 05, 09:42 AM
Gideon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I was also going to mention the same suggestion about using concentrate
and mixing it stronger than the directions indicate. I just wasn't certain
how easy it is to acquire the concentrate these days. Years ago that was
all that I inventoried since it took so little space to store enough
concentrate to make 10-20 gallons of mix. But now I've gotten lazy and
I just grab a gallon or two of pre-mix when I see it on sale on routine
shopping trips.

Any idea where to purchase concentrate in 5 gallon quantities such as
you used to purchase?

Gideon




  #6  
Old January 24th 05, 10:52 PM
Gideon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I'd still recommend the standard (methyl alcohol) version of Heet:
1) Iso-Heet is slightly more expensive ($2.29 vs $1.79)
2) Regular Heet (methanol) has much better anti-freeze properties:
An 80% solution of isopropyl alcohol freezes at -35.
An 80% solution of methyl alcohol freezes at an unbelievable -225.
3) I'm guessing that today's auto finishes are extremely resistant to
both types of alcohol-water mixtures. Years ago I was extremely
careful about using any solvent on an auto finish. I now use a
variety of strong solvents for difficult tar and bug removal - this
includes nastier solvents such as methanol and acetone. Decades
ago these could have ruined the paint. Obviously, you always
have to test the solvent on a small, hidden bit of paint first.


My reasoning on why methanol is used in the WWF that we purchase:
1) The extremely lower freezing points.
2) Paint finishes are much tougher these days. Some of the
binary formulations are rock hard.
3) Commercial methanol is about 3-4 times less expensive.
And since only half as much is need for the same anti-freeze level,
it becomes 6-8 times less expensive when used in WWF mixes.
4) Possibly, methanol is a better solvent for bug removal, etc.
I'm just guessing on this one.

Gideon




  #7  
Old January 25th 05, 04:15 AM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 08:42:20 GMT, "Gideon" > wrote:

>I was also going to mention the same suggestion about using concentrate
>and mixing it stronger than the directions indicate. I just wasn't certain
>how easy it is to acquire the concentrate these days. Years ago that was
>all that I inventoried since it took so little space to store enough
>concentrate to make 10-20 gallons of mix. But now I've gotten lazy and
>I just grab a gallon or two of pre-mix when I see it on sale on routine
>shopping trips.
>
>Any idea where to purchase concentrate in 5 gallon quantities such as
>you used to purchase?
>
>Gideon
>
>
>

Try Napa
  #9  
Old January 28th 05, 05:19 AM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:11:57 GMT, "Gideon" > wrote:

>
wrote
>>>>Any idea where to purchase concentrate in 5 gallon quantities such as
>>>>you used to purchase?
>>>>

>>Try Napa

>
>Because you know that NAPA carries it or because you are just guessing?
>

Would be the second place I'd try, after the local distributor,
Monarch Oil in Kitchener Ontario. I KNOW they have it, and I also KNOW
Napa could get it last year (when it was still UAP up here) - so they
likely can this year too.
 




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