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Chevy Smallblock starter question...



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 19th 06, 06:07 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
ray
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 276
Default Chevy Smallblock starter question...

76 Camaro Dirt Track Car... starter is (was) a rebuilt bigblock HD one,
that's been given a new nose to match the flywheel, and the gear
(bendix?) swapped for a used one when it jammed in the 307's bent
flexplate.

Was working fine. We had to pull the engine for oilpan repair (6 quart
circle track pan + inner tie rod grease fitting = hole.)

The car has three switches - power, ignition, and start. (makes it easy
to bump the starter without the ignition coming on.)

What started happening was the starter button appeared to jam on - spin
and spin and spin. Hitting the main power switch didn't kill it either.
Had to pull the battery cable. We did the "screwdriver" test across
the terminals with the main power off (only the big power wire is still
live straight from the battery) and it did the same thing - had to pull
the battery cable. Double checked all the wiring and the switch - same
thing.

We pulled the starter, and started dismantling it. Everything looked
ok, so we double checked the connections and bench tested it - ok...put
it back in the car, same thing.

the closest thing I could find in the shop manual taked about replacing
the "clutch" and showed the gear assembly which engages the flywheel as
being possibly bad, so we swapped it for one in a rebuild kit. That
appears to have fixed it, but I'm wondering if that was just dumb luck
or if that could actually have been the problem.

From what I can tell it's like the circuit that pulls the plunger and
everything "forward" when engaged was staying energized even when you
disconnected it (we have a quick connect on the firewall for pulling the
engine) and not disengaging.

The only "good" out of this is that I didn't discover this at the track.

Ray
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  #2  
Old July 19th 06, 06:13 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
ray
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 276
Default Chevy Smallblock starter question...

ray wrote:
> 76 Camaro Dirt Track Car... starter is (was) a rebuilt bigblock HD one,
> that's been given a new nose to match the flywheel, and the gear
> (bendix?) swapped for a used one when it jammed in the 307's bent
> flexplate.
>
> Was working fine. We had to pull the engine for oilpan repair (6 quart
> circle track pan + inner tie rod grease fitting = hole.)
>
> The car has three switches - power, ignition, and start. (makes it easy
> to bump the starter without the ignition coming on.)
>
> What started happening was the starter button appeared to jam on - spin
> and spin and spin. Hitting the main power switch didn't kill it either.
> Had to pull the battery cable. We did the "screwdriver" test across
> the terminals with the main power off (only the big power wire is still
> live straight from the battery) and it did the same thing - had to pull
> the battery cable. Double checked all the wiring and the switch - same
> thing.
>
> We pulled the starter, and started dismantling it. Everything looked
> ok, so we double checked the connections and bench tested it - ok...put
> it back in the car, same thing.
>
> the closest thing I could find in the shop manual taked about replacing
> the "clutch" and showed the gear assembly which engages the flywheel as
> being possibly bad, so we swapped it for one in a rebuild kit. That
> appears to have fixed it, but I'm wondering if that was just dumb luck
> or if that could actually have been the problem.
>
> From what I can tell it's like the circuit that pulls the plunger and
> everything "forward" when engaged was staying energized even when you
> disconnected it (we have a quick connect on the firewall for pulling the
> engine) and not disengaging.
>
> The only "good" out of this is that I didn't discover this at the track.
>
> Ray

oh yeah, we also disconnected the alternator in the off chance that
something in there was shorted/allowing power to backfeed through it or
something really weird. And remember, it's a racecar, there's no other
wiring - just a battery, a couple of switches, the alternator and the
starter, and the distributor and tach.

Ray
  #3  
Old July 19th 06, 06:25 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
Don[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 300
Default Chevy Smallblock starter question...

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 05:07:29 GMT, ray
> wrote:

>76 Camaro Dirt Track Car... starter is (was) a rebuilt bigblock HD one,
>that's been given a new nose to match the flywheel, and the gear
>(bendix?) swapped for a used one when it jammed in the 307's bent
>flexplate.
>
>Was working fine. We had to pull the engine for oilpan repair (6 quart
>circle track pan + inner tie rod grease fitting = hole.)
>
>The car has three switches - power, ignition, and start. (makes it easy
>to bump the starter without the ignition coming on.)
>
>What started happening was the starter button appeared to jam on - spin
>and spin and spin. Hitting the main power switch didn't kill it either.
> Had to pull the battery cable. We did the "screwdriver" test across
>the terminals with the main power off (only the big power wire is still
>live straight from the battery) and it did the same thing - had to pull
>the battery cable. Double checked all the wiring and the switch - same
>thing.
>
>We pulled the starter, and started dismantling it. Everything looked
>ok, so we double checked the connections and bench tested it - ok...put
>it back in the car, same thing.


There was nothing wrong with the starter -- only the installation.

>the closest thing I could find in the shop manual taked about replacing
>the "clutch" and showed the gear assembly which engages the flywheel as
>being possibly bad, so we swapped it for one in a rebuild kit. That
>appears to have fixed it, but I'm wondering if that was just dumb luck
>or if that could actually have been the problem.
>
> From what I can tell it's like the circuit that pulls the plunger and
>everything "forward" when engaged was staying energized even when you
>disconnected it (we have a quick connect on the firewall for pulling the
>engine) and not disengaging.
>
>The only "good" out of this is that I didn't discover this at the track.
>
>Ray


Your spacing between the starter and the flywheel is way too tight.
This is precisely what happens when you need to add shims.

Some people feel that you should use a Ford-type starter "solenoid"
close to the battery to activate the starter and then hotwire the
starter main feed and solenoid terminals together. This is what I do.
Its a safety advantage in that you don't have that big heavy cable
capable of carrying arc welding level current hot all the time in the
event of a crash. As all dirt track racers know -- crashes are part
of dirt-track racing!

Don
www.donsautomotive.com
Fellow dirt track racer since my 50th birthday in1996.
6 Feature wins first rookie year!
Currently IMCA Stockcar #51


  #4  
Old July 19th 06, 09:41 AM posted to rec.autos.tech
jeffcoslacker[_22_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Chevy Smallblock starter question...


Don Wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 05:07:29 GMT, ray
> > wrote:
>
> >76 Camaro Dirt Track Car... starter is (was) a rebuilt bigblock HD

> one,
> >that's been given a new nose to match the flywheel, and the gear
> >(bendix?) swapped for a used one when it jammed in the 307's bent
> >flexplate.
> >
> >Was working fine. We had to pull the engine for oilpan repair (6 quart
> >circle track pan + inner tie rod grease fitting = hole.)
> >
> >The car has three switches - power, ignition, and start. (makes it

> easy
> >to bump the starter without the ignition coming on.)
> >
> >What started happening was the starter button appeared to jam on -

> spin
> >and spin and spin. Hitting the main power switch didn't kill it

> either.
> > Had to pull the battery cable. We did the "screwdriver" test across
> >the terminals with the main power off (only the big power wire is

> still
> >live straight from the battery) and it did the same thing - had to

> pull
> >the battery cable. Double checked all the wiring and the switch - same
> >thing.
> >
> >We pulled the starter, and started dismantling it. Everything looked
> >ok, so we double checked the connections and bench tested it -

> ok...put
> >it back in the car, same thing.

>
> There was nothing wrong with the starter -- only the installation.
>
> >the closest thing I could find in the shop manual taked about

> replacing
> >the "clutch" and showed the gear assembly which engages the flywheel

> as
> >being possibly bad, so we swapped it for one in a rebuild kit. That
> >appears to have fixed it, but I'm wondering if that was just dumb luck
> >or if that could actually have been the problem.
> >
> > From what I can tell it's like the circuit that pulls the plunger and
> >everything "forward" when engaged was staying energized even when you
> >disconnected it (we have a quick connect on the firewall for pulling

> the
> >engine) and not disengaging.
> >
> >The only "good" out of this is that I didn't discover this at the

> track.
> >
> >Ray

>
> Your spacing between the starter and the flywheel is way too tight.
> This is precisely what happens when you need to add shims.
>
> Some people feel that you should use a Ford-type starter "solenoid"
> close to the battery to activate the starter and then hotwire the
> starter main feed and solenoid terminals together. This is what I do.
> Its a safety advantage in that you don't have that big heavy cable
> capable of carrying arc welding level current hot all the time in the
> event of a crash. As all dirt track racers know -- crashes are part
> of dirt-track racing!
>
> Don
> 'www.donsautomotive.com' (http://www.donsautomotive.com)
> Fellow dirt track racer since my 50th birthday in1996.
> 6 Feature wins first rookie year!
> Currently IMCA Stockcar #51



This must be some kind of high torque, possibly reduction type starter
for a high-comp motor? Otherwise I can't see spending so much time
trying to fix it....

The current comes from the battery cable lug once the relay portion is
enegized, which powers the windings that cause the pinion gear to throw
rearward, which then powers up the starter's main windings and gets the
motor turning...if the pinion gets stuck unable to withdraw from the
flywheel power continues to be fed to the starter as the circuit is
closed until it drops back to rest...the clutch mechanism or improper
shimming could be the culprit, but if it sounds ok now (no dragging,
screech or binding) I'd think you're good...


--
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  #5  
Old July 19th 06, 02:00 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
ray
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 276
Default Chevy Smallblock starter question...

jeffcoslacker wrote:
>
> This must be some kind of high torque, possibly reduction type starter
> for a high-comp motor? Otherwise I can't see spending so much time
> trying to fix it....
>
> The current comes from the battery cable lug once the relay portion is
> enegized, which powers the windings that cause the pinion gear to throw
> rearward, which then powers up the starter's main windings and gets the
> motor turning...if the pinion gets stuck unable to withdraw from the
> flywheel power continues to be fed to the starter as the circuit is
> closed until it drops back to rest...the clutch mechanism or improper
> shimming could be the culprit, but if it sounds ok now (no dragging,
> screech or binding) I'd think you're good...
>
>


no, it's a stock starter, but a HD one. And actually, it's not that
bad... my buddy can R&R and rebuild a starter now in about 20 minutes.
Rebuild kits are cheaper than new starters.
  #6  
Old July 19th 06, 02:04 PM posted to rec.autos.tech
ray
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 276
Default Chevy Smallblock starter question...

Don wrote:
>
> Your spacing between the starter and the flywheel is way too tight.
> This is precisely what happens when you need to add shims.
>


That's also why it was magically "fixed" when we changed the drive with
one from the rebuild kit - the gear is probably just that 64th of an
inch smaller and I now have enough clearance. I'm going to check it
today anyway.

At least I know why. thanks guys.

Ray
 




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