Best MPG : 5-speed vs. auto?

Greg Campbell wrote:
>
> Mike Romain wrote:
>
> >>The idea that you lose control in neutral is baloney.
>
> > No it isn't.
>
> > When you are coasting in neutral, the suspension is unloaded. This
> > means all the parts are loose and floppy. If you have any worn parts,
> > this looseness can translate into loss of control 'very' quickly.
>
> If your suspension and shocks are so knackered that they rely on
> drivetrain preload to control the car, your rolling wreck shouldn't be
> anywhere near the road...
>
> > Read your owners manual and see what it states.
>
> Liability and CYA.
>
> > Coming onto a world wide forum and telling folks it's ok to coast in
> > neutral is liable to get someone killed.
>
> <rolleyes>
>
> I don't know how much gas the engine uses when coasting down hill; there
> may well be a 'coast' lean program that kicks in. I do know that a
> zero-throttle engine produces a lot of drag which severely limits my
> coasting range. Assuming the hill is not so steep as to require/suggest
> engine braking, I'm all for clutch-in, or neutral gear, coasting,
> particularly in town, when a stale green or fresh red light is 30
> seconds ahead of me. No snap spins or dead pedestrians yet!
>
> > I off road a lot and see accidents that happen because the person was
> > coasting in neutral. It is bad news to do, especially in snow or
> > slippery conditions.
>
> This I'll buy. The diff provides some yaw control that might be handy
> on ice or dirt roads. On clean asphalt, it's a non issue.
>
> -Greg

Physics is the same on or off road....

Check out your local rules of the road (most are online even) and see
what kind of 'non issue' it really is.... It can be an expensive non
issue if you live where coasting down a hill is illegal a cop busts you
for it...

If coasting was so safe as you mistakenly believe, I wonder whey most
places in the world make it illegal to coast down hill?

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 09:58:57 -0400, Mike Romain > wrote:


>Greg Campbell wrote:
>>
>> Mike Romain wrote:
>>
>> >>The idea that you lose control in neutral is baloney.
>>
>> > No it isn't.
>>
>> > When you are coasting in neutral, the suspension is unloaded. This
>> > means all the parts are loose and floppy. If you have any worn parts,
>> > this looseness can translate into loss of control 'very' quickly.
>>
>> If your suspension and shocks are so knackered that they rely on
>> drivetrain preload to control the car, your rolling wreck shouldn't be
>> anywhere near the road...
>>
>> > Read your owners manual and see what it states.
>>
>> Liability and CYA.
>>
>> > Coming onto a world wide forum and telling folks it's ok to coast in
>> > neutral is liable to get someone killed.
>>
>> <rolleyes>
>>
>> I don't know how much gas the engine uses when coasting down hill; there
>> may well be a 'coast' lean program that kicks in. I do know that a
>> zero-throttle engine produces a lot of drag which severely limits my
>> coasting range. Assuming the hill is not so steep as to require/suggest
>> engine braking, I'm all for clutch-in, or neutral gear, coasting,
>> particularly in town, when a stale green or fresh red light is 30
>> seconds ahead of me. No snap spins or dead pedestrians yet!
>>
>> > I off road a lot and see accidents that happen because the person was
>> > coasting in neutral. It is bad news to do, especially in snow or
>> > slippery conditions.
>>
>> This I'll buy. The diff provides some yaw control that might be handy
>> on ice or dirt roads. On clean asphalt, it's a non issue.
>>
>> -Greg

>Physics is the same on or off road....

>Check out your local rules of the road (most are online even) and see
>what kind of 'non issue' it really is.... It can be an expensive non
>issue if you live where coasting down a hill is illegal a cop busts you
>for it...

Please name one single instance of somebody getting a ticket for coasting.
How, pray tell, is a cop going to tell if a car is coasting?

>If coasting was so safe as you mistakenly believe, I wonder whey most
>places in the world make it illegal to coast down hill?

It is illegal because there are people on the road who lack the skills
to put the car back in gear to accelerate away from an impending accident.
Sounds like you're one of them.

> Physics is the same on or off road....
>
> Check out your local rules of the road (most are online even) and see
> what kind of 'non issue' it really is.... It can be an expensive non
> issue if you live where coasting down a hill is illegal a cop busts you
> for it...
>
> If coasting was so safe as you mistakenly believe, I wonder whey most
> places in the world make it illegal to coast down hill?
>

I agree completely.

BTW, once upon a time long ago freewheeling was an option available on
some cars. And the overdrive on some cars would freewheel too. I'm
told by family members who drove such cars that the freewheeling
feature was quickly dropped because drivers were getting into trouble
on curves and long downhills. The car would gain speed quickly if
engine braking wasn't available. Granted brakes are far more fade
resistant and more effective now, but finding your car suddenly at too
high a speed is still a risk.

Those drivers who pop the car into neutral on a downhill may save a
little gas, but I suspect it could be measured by the teaspoonful. As
long as the OP is agonizing over minor amounts of money he would have
to consider the added wear and tear on brakes too.

It is a dangerous habit to get into.

Mike Romain wrote:


>>This I'll buy. The diff provides some yaw control that might be handy
>>on ice or dirt roads. On clean asphalt, it's a non issue.
>>
>>-Greg
>
>
> Physics is the same on or off road....

I didn't imply otherwise. On a snot-slick road, every little bit helps.
On clean pavement, the extra stability is unnoticable, IMO.

> Check out your local rules of the road (most are online even) and see
> what kind of 'non issue' it really is.... It can be an expensive non
> issue if you live where coasting down a hill is illegal a cop busts you
> for it...

There are plenty of over zealous laws (and mindless-enforcer-drone cops)
out there. They're an occupational hazard associated with living in our
big, wonderful, risk-phobic society.

> If coasting was so safe as you mistakenly believe, I wonder whey most
> places in the world make it illegal to coast down hill?

I'd imagine the laws are to deter idiots from freewheeling down 10%
grades, burning off the brakes, then crashing and dieing (or, much
worse, killing aomeone else). For the sort of coasting I'm advocating,
that's not a remote possiblity.

-Greg

In my fifty years of driving, I have never broken a driveline component
or suspension component on a street car. I have replaced throwout
bearings in clutches, and one clutch disk, but that was years ago,
before high gas prices and my extensive coasting.

On the other hand, I have broken two rear axles, and broken two rear end
gear sets, on my race car. That car, ironically, has no clutch and the
in and out box is not ordinarily taken out of gear when car is moving.
Thus, EVERY time I lift throttle I am engine braking.

Thus, my experience says coasting does NOT wreck drive train nor
suspension- engine braking does :-)



>>>When you are coasting in neutral, the suspension is unloaded. This
>>>means all the parts are loose and floppy. If you have any worn parts,
>>>this looseness can translate into loss of control 'very' quickly.
>>
>>If your suspension and shocks are so knackered that they rely on
>>drivetrain preload to control the car, your rolling wreck shouldn't be
>>anywhere near the road...
>>
>>
>>>Read your owners manual and see what it states.
>>
>>Liability and CYA.
>>
>>
>>>Coming onto a world wide forum and telling folks it's ok to coast in
>>>neutral is liable to get someone killed.
>>
>><rolleyes>
>>
>>I don't know how much gas the engine uses when coasting down hill; there
>>may well be a 'coast' lean program that kicks in. I do know that a
>>zero-throttle engine produces a lot of drag which severely limits my
>>coasting range. Assuming the hill is not so steep as to require/suggest
>>engine braking, I'm all for clutch-in, or neutral gear, coasting,
>>particularly in town, when a stale green or fresh red light is 30
>>seconds ahead of me. No snap spins or dead pedestrians yet!
>>
>>

In my fifty years of driving, I have never broken a driveline component
or suspension component on a street car. I have replaced throwout
bearings in clutches, and one clutch disk, but that was years ago,
before high gas prices and my extensive coasting.

On the other hand, I have broken two rear axles, and broken two rear end
gear sets, on my race car. That car, ironically, has no clutch and the
in and out box is not ordinarily taken out of gear when car is moving.
Thus, EVERY time I lift throttle I am engine braking.

Thus, my experience says coasting does NOT wreck drive train nor
suspension- engine braking does :-)



>>>When you are coasting in neutral, the suspension is unloaded. This
>>>means all the parts are loose and floppy. If you have any worn parts,
>>>this looseness can translate into loss of control 'very' quickly.
>>
>>If your suspension and shocks are so knackered that they rely on
>>drivetrain preload to control the car, your rolling wreck shouldn't be
>>anywhere near the road...
>>
>>
>>>Read your owners manual and see what it states.
>>
>>Liability and CYA.
>>
>>
>>>Coming onto a world wide forum and telling folks it's ok to coast in
>>>neutral is liable to get someone killed.
>>
>><rolleyes>
>>
>>I don't know how much gas the engine uses when coasting down hill; there
>>may well be a 'coast' lean program that kicks in. I do know that a
>>zero-throttle engine produces a lot of drag which severely limits my
>>coasting range. Assuming the hill is not so steep as to require/suggest
>>engine braking, I'm all for clutch-in, or neutral gear, coasting,
>>particularly in town, when a stale green or fresh red light is 30
>>seconds ahead of me. No snap spins or dead pedestrians yet!
>>
>>

In my fifty years of driving, I have never broken a driveline component
or suspension component on a street car. I have replaced throwout
bearings in clutches, and one clutch disk, but that was years ago,
before high gas prices and my extensive coasting.

On the other hand, I have broken two rear axles, and broken two rear end
gear sets, on my race car. That car, ironically, has no clutch and the
in and out box is not ordinarily taken out of gear when car is moving.
Thus, EVERY time I lift throttle I am engine braking.

Thus, my experience says coasting does NOT wreck drive train nor
suspension- engine braking does :-)



>>>When you are coasting in neutral, the suspension is unloaded. This
>>>means all the parts are loose and floppy. If you have any worn parts,
>>>this looseness can translate into loss of control 'very' quickly.
>>
>>If your suspension and shocks are so knackered that they rely on
>>drivetrain preload to control the car, your rolling wreck shouldn't be
>>anywhere near the road...
>>
>>
>>>Read your owners manual and see what it states.
>>
>>Liability and CYA.
>>
>>
>>>Coming onto a world wide forum and telling folks it's ok to coast in
>>>neutral is liable to get someone killed.
>>
>><rolleyes>
>>
>>I don't know how much gas the engine uses when coasting down hill; there
>>may well be a 'coast' lean program that kicks in. I do know that a
>>zero-throttle engine produces a lot of drag which severely limits my
>>coasting range. Assuming the hill is not so steep as to require/suggest
>>engine braking, I'm all for clutch-in, or neutral gear, coasting,
>>particularly in town, when a stale green or fresh red light is 30
>>seconds ahead of me. No snap spins or dead pedestrians yet!
>>
>>

John S. wrote:
> I agree completely.
>
> BTW, once upon a time long ago freewheeling was an option available on
> some cars. And the overdrive on some cars would freewheel too. I'm
> told by family members who drove such cars that the freewheeling
> feature was quickly dropped because drivers were getting into trouble
> on curves and long downhills. The car would gain speed quickly if
> engine braking wasn't available. Granted brakes are far more fade
> resistant and more effective now, but finding your car suddenly at too
> high a speed is still a risk.
>
> Those drivers who pop the car into neutral on a downhill may save a
> little gas, but I suspect it could be measured by the teaspoonful. As
> long as the OP is agonizing over minor amounts of money he would have
> to consider the added wear and tear on brakes too.
>
> It is a dangerous habit to get into.
>

Hey, at two seventy a gallon, it doesn't take many teaspoon fulls to
turn into real money. I had a 47 Studie and a 51 Ford with
free-wheeling overdrives. The car did not SUDDENLY go to a high speed,
it accelerated by G times the tangent of the angle of the hill. Yeah,
these were drum brakes, and brakes are a lot different. The Studie had
a simple lever to lock out the overdrive. If you were in steep hill
territory, you could lock it out. I was under the impression they
dropped it 'cause so many people were ordering auto that they didn't
want to inventory two different stick shifts. They were not selling
that many overdrives (it was an extra cost option, about same price as
automatic).

You are still posting on a world wide forum trying to advocate breaking
the law.

You can try to justify breaking the law all you want, readers just need
to know it is basically an unsafe and illegal practice to coast down a
hill in neutral.

Once you are used to 'just doing that little' coast, the coasts get
longer and steeper and.....

Mike

Greg Campbell wrote:
>
> Mike Romain wrote:
>
> >>This I'll buy. The diff provides some yaw control that might be handy
> >>on ice or dirt roads. On clean asphalt, it's a non issue.
> >>
> >>-Greg
> >
> >
> > Physics is the same on or off road....
>
> I didn't imply otherwise. On a snot-slick road, every little bit helps.
> On clean pavement, the extra stability is unnoticable, IMO.
>
> > Check out your local rules of the road (most are online even) and see
> > what kind of 'non issue' it really is.... It can be an expensive non
> > issue if you live where coasting down a hill is illegal a cop busts you
> > for it...
>
> There are plenty of over zealous laws (and mindless-enforcer-drone cops)
> out there. They're an occupational hazard associated with living in our
> big, wonderful, risk-phobic society.
>
> > If coasting was so safe as you mistakenly believe, I wonder whey most
> > places in the world make it illegal to coast down hill?
>
> I'd imagine the laws are to deter idiots from freewheeling down 10%
> grades, burning off the brakes, then crashing and dieing (or, much
> worse, killing aomeone else). For the sort of coasting I'm advocating,
> that's not a remote possiblity.
>
> -Greg

You are still posting on a world wide forum trying to advocate breaking
the law.

You can try to justify breaking the law all you want, readers just need
to know it is basically an unsafe and illegal practice to coast down a
hill in neutral.

Once you are used to 'just doing that little' coast, the coasts get
longer and steeper and.....

Mike

Don Stauffer wrote:
>
> In my fifty years of driving, I have never broken a driveline component
> or suspension component on a street car. I have replaced throwout
> bearings in clutches, and one clutch disk, but that was years ago,
> before high gas prices and my extensive coasting.
>
> On the other hand, I have broken two rear axles, and broken two rear end
> gear sets, on my race car. That car, ironically, has no clutch and the
> in and out box is not ordinarily taken out of gear when car is moving.
> Thus, EVERY time I lift throttle I am engine braking.
>
> Thus, my experience says coasting does NOT wreck drive train nor
> suspension- engine braking does :-)
>
> >>>When you are coasting in neutral, the suspension is unloaded. This
> >>>means all the parts are loose and floppy. If you have any worn parts,
> >>>this looseness can translate into loss of control 'very' quickly.
> >>
> >>If your suspension and shocks are so knackered that they rely on
> >>drivetrain preload to control the car, your rolling wreck shouldn't be
> >>anywhere near the road...
> >>
> >>
> >>>Read your owners manual and see what it states.
> >>
> >>Liability and CYA.
> >>
> >>
> >>>Coming onto a world wide forum and telling folks it's ok to coast in
> >>>neutral is liable to get someone killed.
> >>
> >><rolleyes>
> >>
> >>I don't know how much gas the engine uses when coasting down hill; there
> >>may well be a 'coast' lean program that kicks in. I do know that a
> >>zero-throttle engine produces a lot of drag which severely limits my
> >>coasting range. Assuming the hill is not so steep as to require/suggest
> >>engine braking, I'm all for clutch-in, or neutral gear, coasting,
> >>particularly in town, when a stale green or fresh red light is 30
> >>seconds ahead of me. No snap spins or dead pedestrians yet!
> >>
> >>