E36 Noisy VANOS

My 1995 325i 5speed has a noisy VANOS. It has the classic "marbles in a
can" sound which I understand perfectly describes this condition, but
about which I am unable to turn much up.

I'm wondering if anyone else here has run into this problem, and if so,
what did you do to resolve it? Does anyone know what the mechanism is
for making the noise?

I've read some folks have switched back from 5W30 mobil1 synthetic to
15W40 dyno oil with good results as far as the valve train noise goes.
I'm wondering if maybe Castrol 20W50 (dino) would be a good choice
instead. I know it fits somewhere in the recommended oil temperatuire
chart for that engine, but am looking to know what it will do for the
noisy VANOS.

My indy wrench, who's opinion I generally regard pretty highly, says I
need a new VANOS unit (to the tune of about $250) and the upper timing
chain tensioner, this after only a quick listen, as these are what he
usually does for this (fairly common) problem. I'm aware that he knew I
was planning on doing the job myself and was only tapping his diagnostic
skills. He still gets enough of my money (I bring 3 different BMWs
there for various things) so I don't think he is jiving me.

My plan is to do the oil change with 20W50, which is about due anyway.
If that doesn't help the noise right away, I'll pull the valve cover and
scope things out. Of course that means new VC gaskets and a host of
other odds and ends to get in and out cleanly.

Any insight on this VANOS noise stuff?

TIA,
-Fred W

Sorry, I have no clue.

I have seen the valve train - including VANOS - on my car, and if you can
stabalize the cams at TDC, replacing the chain and sprockets should be
reasonably straight forward. There is a special jig to keep the cams lined
up correctly, perhaps your mechanic will loan it to you.

My guess is, that if you can hear the chains they probably must be replaced
along with the respective sprockets. I don't know much about the VANOS unit
itself, but my recollection is that it hasn't got any adjustable parts, that
is the adjustments are all on the ends of the cams themselves not inside the
VANOS mechanism.





"Malt_Hound" > wrote in message
...
> My 1995 325i 5speed has a noisy VANOS. It has the classic "marbles in a
> can" sound which I understand perfectly describes this condition, but
> about which I am unable to turn much up.
>
> I'm wondering if anyone else here has run into this problem, and if so,
> what did you do to resolve it? Does anyone know what the mechanism is for
> making the noise?
>
> I've read some folks have switched back from 5W30 mobil1 synthetic to
> 15W40 dyno oil with good results as far as the valve train noise goes.
> I'm wondering if maybe Castrol 20W50 (dino) would be a good choice
> instead. I know it fits somewhere in the recommended oil temperatuire
> chart for that engine, but am looking to know what it will do for the
> noisy VANOS.
>
> My indy wrench, who's opinion I generally regard pretty highly, says I
> need a new VANOS unit (to the tune of about $250) and the upper timing
> chain tensioner, this after only a quick listen, as these are what he
> usually does for this (fairly common) problem. I'm aware that he knew I
> was planning on doing the job myself and was only tapping his diagnostic
> skills. He still gets enough of my money (I bring 3 different BMWs there
> for various things) so I don't think he is jiving me.
>
> My plan is to do the oil change with 20W50, which is about due anyway. If
> that doesn't help the noise right away, I'll pull the valve cover and
> scope things out. Of course that means new VC gaskets and a host of other
> odds and ends to get in and out cleanly.
>
> Any insight on this VANOS noise stuff?
>
> TIA,
> -Fred W

J Strickland wrote:
> Sorry, I have no clue.
>
> I have seen the valve train - including VANOS - on my car, and if you can
> stabalize the cams at TDC, replacing the chain and sprockets should be
> reasonably straight forward. There is a special jig to keep the cams lined
> up correctly, perhaps your mechanic will loan it to you.
>
> My guess is, that if you can hear the chains they probably must be replaced
> along with the respective sprockets. I don't know much about the VANOS unit
> itself, but my recollection is that it hasn't got any adjustable parts, that
> is the adjustments are all on the ends of the cams themselves not inside the
> VANOS mechanism.

Yeah, Jeff, thanks for the reply.

I know how the VANOS works too, and I can't for the life of me figure
out where this sound would be coming from. It's not really a timing
chain sound (I have owned a SAABs that had stretched chains). I should
record it somehow and post it somewhere.

If it was just a loose chain, based on my prior experience I'm sure I
could cob a fixture together to hold the cams, or as you say borrow one,
and get the chain replaced. But my wrench said just the tensioner for
the upper chain loop and the VANOS assembly need to be replaced. He
also mentioned something about the VANOS's solenoid rattling.

The VANOS assembly is about $300 best price I can find, which of course
prompts my research to determine if this is truly needed. I know there
is a BMW for just the VANOS solenoid, if that is all I need, and I'd bet
it would be substantially less than the whole kahuna.

I googled for a while and came up with a number of folks that said the
type of oil used will make the VANOS noisier or quieter. There was even
one that particularly mentioned the use of Mobil1 Synthetic 5W30, which
happens to be what I'm using at this time. I suppose it is related to
the VANOS's use of the oil pressure to actuate the cam advance
mechanism. I have also heard that Mobil1 is on the thin side of spec,
so maybe there is something to this idea?

I guess I'll continue with my plan to do the oil change first off, and
just use dino 15W40 or something and see what that does.

--
-Fred W

"Malt_Hound" > wrote in message
...
>J Strickland wrote:
>> Sorry, I have no clue.
>>
>> I have seen the valve train - including VANOS - on my car, and if you can
>> stabalize the cams at TDC, replacing the chain and sprockets should be
>> reasonably straight forward. There is a special jig to keep the cams
>> lined up correctly, perhaps your mechanic will loan it to you.
>>
>> My guess is, that if you can hear the chains they probably must be
>> replaced along with the respective sprockets. I don't know much about the
>> VANOS unit itself, but my recollection is that it hasn't got any
>> adjustable parts, that is the adjustments are all on the ends of the cams
>> themselves not inside the VANOS mechanism.
>
> Yeah, Jeff, thanks for the reply.
>
> I know how the VANOS works too, and I can't for the life of me figure out
> where this sound would be coming from. It's not really a timing chain
> sound (I have owned a SAABs that had stretched chains). I should record
> it somehow and post it somewhere.
>
> If it was just a loose chain, based on my prior experience I'm sure I
> could cob a fixture together to hold the cams, or as you say borrow one,
> and get the chain replaced. But my wrench said just the tensioner for the
> upper chain loop and the VANOS assembly need to be replaced. He also
> mentioned something about the VANOS's solenoid rattling.
>
> The VANOS assembly is about $300 best price I can find, which of course
> prompts my research to determine if this is truly needed. I know there is
> a BMW for just the VANOS solenoid, if that is all I need, and I'd bet it
> would be substantially less than the whole kahuna.
>
> I googled for a while and came up with a number of folks that said the
> type of oil used will make the VANOS noisier or quieter. There was even
> one that particularly mentioned the use of Mobil1 Synthetic 5W30, which
> happens to be what I'm using at this time. I suppose it is related to the
> VANOS's use of the oil pressure to actuate the cam advance mechanism. I
> have also heard that Mobil1 is on the thin side of spec, so maybe there is
> something to this idea?
>
> I guess I'll continue with my plan to do the oil change first off, and
> just use dino 15W40 or something and see what that does.
>

I'd be pulling the valve cover to see what's up instead of changing the oil.
Well, there is never a bad time to change the oil, but if there is a "real"
mechanical issue to deal with, new oil will be nothing more than a mask.

There is the main timing chain and then there is the VANOS chain, or two.
There are tensioners for these, and perhaps you have a stuck tensioner. No
matter what you have, you need to pull the valve cover at the very least to
find it.

J Strickland wrote:
> "Malt_Hound" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>J Strickland wrote:
>>
>>>Sorry, I have no clue.
>>>
>>>I have seen the valve train - including VANOS - on my car, and if you can
>>>stabalize the cams at TDC, replacing the chain and sprockets should be
>>>reasonably straight forward. There is a special jig to keep the cams
>>>lined up correctly, perhaps your mechanic will loan it to you.
>>>
>>>My guess is, that if you can hear the chains they probably must be
>>>replaced along with the respective sprockets. I don't know much about the
>>>VANOS unit itself, but my recollection is that it hasn't got any
>>>adjustable parts, that is the adjustments are all on the ends of the cams
>>>themselves not inside the VANOS mechanism.
>>
>>Yeah, Jeff, thanks for the reply.
>>
>>I know how the VANOS works too, and I can't for the life of me figure out
>>where this sound would be coming from. It's not really a timing chain
>>sound (I have owned a SAABs that had stretched chains). I should record
>>it somehow and post it somewhere.
>>
>>If it was just a loose chain, based on my prior experience I'm sure I
>>could cob a fixture together to hold the cams, or as you say borrow one,
>>and get the chain replaced. But my wrench said just the tensioner for the
>>upper chain loop and the VANOS assembly need to be replaced. He also
>>mentioned something about the VANOS's solenoid rattling.
>>
>>The VANOS assembly is about $300 best price I can find, which of course
>>prompts my research to determine if this is truly needed. I know there is
>>a BMW for just the VANOS solenoid, if that is all I need, and I'd bet it
>>would be substantially less than the whole kahuna.
>>
>>I googled for a while and came up with a number of folks that said the
>>type of oil used will make the VANOS noisier or quieter. There was even
>>one that particularly mentioned the use of Mobil1 Synthetic 5W30, which
>>happens to be what I'm using at this time. I suppose it is related to the
>>VANOS's use of the oil pressure to actuate the cam advance mechanism. I
>>have also heard that Mobil1 is on the thin side of spec, so maybe there is
>>something to this idea?
>>
>>I guess I'll continue with my plan to do the oil change first off, and
>>just use dino 15W40 or something and see what that does.
>>
>
>
> I'd be pulling the valve cover to see what's up instead of changing the oil.
> Well, there is never a bad time to change the oil, but if there is a "real"
> mechanical issue to deal with, new oil will be nothing more than a mask.
>
> There is the main timing chain and then there is the VANOS chain, or two.

No, that's not how VANOS works. The main chain drives the exhaust cam
off the crankshaft and the second chain loop connects the two cams
toeach other (exhaust and intake).

The VANOS is a electric solenoid that opens and closes a valve which
routes oil pressure to an actuator or blocks it. The actuator slides
the intake camshaft's sprocket forward and backward along the end of the
camshaft, which intead of having a straight splined end or keyway as
normal camshafts do, has a worm-gear type spline cut into it. So by
sliding the sprocket for and aft, the rotational relationship of the cam
to the sprocket can be varied and that's where you get the timing advance.

So there are no "VANOS" chains, just gears, and there are only the two
timing chains.

> There are tensioners for these, and perhaps you have a stuck tensioner.

I suppose the upper timing chain could be loose. I really don't think
this noise is a chain, but...


> No matter what you have, you need to pull the valve cover at the very least to
> find it.
>

....you are probably right about that. I was just wondering what this
other chatter online about the "VANOS noise" disappearing after changing
the oil is all about.

--
-Fred W
Toys for sale, Hey get your toys he
<http://users.adelphia.net/~fredwills/>

I had the VANOS replaced on my 95 525i lst March for this problem. I
got to play with the old one after it was removed. What I discovered
was that the rattle came from the rotational function of the worm gear
actuator (it turns with the upper timing chain and intake cam.) It was
a bit worn allowing it to rattle at idle. It probably didn't need to
be replaced at least from a mechanical standpoint. The idle is quieter
now but there is still a bit of valve clatter.

I had the VANOS replaced on my 95 525i lst March for this problem. I
got to play with the old one after it was removed. What I discovered
was that the rattle came from the rotational function of the worm gear
actuator (it turns with the upper timing chain and intake cam.) It was
a bit worn allowing it to rattle at idle. It probably didn't need to
be replaced at least from a mechanical standpoint. The idle is quieter
now but there is still a bit of valve clatter.

DP525 wrote:
> I had the VANOS replaced on my 95 525i lst March for this problem. I
> got to play with the old one after it was removed. What I discovered
> was that the rattle came from the rotational function of the worm gear
> actuator (it turns with the upper timing chain and intake cam.) It was
> a bit worn allowing it to rattle at idle. It probably didn't need to
> be replaced at least from a mechanical standpoint. The idle is quieter
> now but there is still a bit of valve clatter.
>

Thanks DP,

that is 'zactly what I was looking for. Yes, I can see that being the
issue. And it also 'splains why my reputable indy wrench was not very
excited about it and did not feel the noise was serious.

I will probably pursue it anyway, maybe just start by disassembling as
Jeff suggested, and see if I can see what's what.

Also, before anyone jumps on my description of VANOS, the solenoid
actually moves a valve that routes the oil pressure one way or the other
(advanced or retarded). It does not just block it.

--
-Fred W
Toys for sale, Hey get your toys he
<http://users.adelphia.net/~fredwills/>

Malt_Hound wrote:
> Thanks DP,
>
> that is 'zactly what I was looking for. Yes, I can see that being the
> issue. And it also 'splains why my reputable indy wrench was not very
> excited about it and did not feel the noise was serious.
>
> I will probably pursue it anyway, maybe just start by disassembling as
> Jeff suggested, and see if I can see what's what.
>
> Also, before anyone jumps on my description of VANOS, the solenoid
> actually moves a valve that routes the oil pressure one way or the other
> (advanced or retarded). It does not just block it.
>
> --
> -Fred W
> Toys for sale, Hey get your toys he
> <http://users.adelphia.net/~fredwills/>


My indie used to work for the local dealer and said he had replaced
maybe three EVER just for the noise. Seems most E34 drivers don't care
about it. I would think more E36 guys would want it taken care of
though. But in any case, no one I talked to ever heard of one
cratering and causing the cam to seize or anything like that. It seems
the only flat out failure of them is the solenoid / actuator fails to
actuate leaving the car in limp home mode.

"Malt_Hound" <""Malt_Hound\"@*spam-me not*yahoo.com"> wrote in message
...
>J Strickland wrote:
>> "Malt_Hound" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>J Strickland wrote:
>>>
>>>>Sorry, I have no clue.
>>>>
>>>>I have seen the valve train - including VANOS - on my car, and if you
>>>>can stabalize the cams at TDC, replacing the chain and sprockets should
>>>>be reasonably straight forward. There is a special jig to keep the cams
>>>>lined up correctly, perhaps your mechanic will loan it to you.
>>>>
>>>>My guess is, that if you can hear the chains they probably must be
>>>>replaced along with the respective sprockets. I don't know much about
>>>>the VANOS unit itself, but my recollection is that it hasn't got any
>>>>adjustable parts, that is the adjustments are all on the ends of the
>>>>cams themselves not inside the VANOS mechanism.
>>>
>>>Yeah, Jeff, thanks for the reply.
>>>
>>>I know how the VANOS works too, and I can't for the life of me figure out
>>>where this sound would be coming from. It's not really a timing chain
>>>sound (I have owned a SAABs that had stretched chains). I should record
>>>it somehow and post it somewhere.
>>>
>>>If it was just a loose chain, based on my prior experience I'm sure I
>>>could cob a fixture together to hold the cams, or as you say borrow one,
>>>and get the chain replaced. But my wrench said just the tensioner for
>>>the upper chain loop and the VANOS assembly need to be replaced. He also
>>>mentioned something about the VANOS's solenoid rattling.
>>>
>>>The VANOS assembly is about $300 best price I can find, which of course
>>>prompts my research to determine if this is truly needed. I know there
>>>is a BMW for just the VANOS solenoid, if that is all I need, and I'd bet
>>>it would be substantially less than the whole kahuna.
>>>
>>>I googled for a while and came up with a number of folks that said the
>>>type of oil used will make the VANOS noisier or quieter. There was even
>>>one that particularly mentioned the use of Mobil1 Synthetic 5W30, which
>>>happens to be what I'm using at this time. I suppose it is related to
>>>the VANOS's use of the oil pressure to actuate the cam advance mechanism.
>>>I have also heard that Mobil1 is on the thin side of spec, so maybe there
>>>is something to this idea?
>>>
>>>I guess I'll continue with my plan to do the oil change first off, and
>>>just use dino 15W40 or something and see what that does.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I'd be pulling the valve cover to see what's up instead of changing the
>> oil. Well, there is never a bad time to change the oil, but if there is a
>> "real" mechanical issue to deal with, new oil will be nothing more than a
>> mask.
>>
>> There is the main timing chain and then there is the VANOS chain, or two.
>
> No, that's not how VANOS works. The main chain drives the exhaust cam off
> the crankshaft and the second chain loop connects the two cams toeach
> other (exhaust and intake).
>
> The VANOS is a electric solenoid that opens and closes a valve which
> routes oil pressure to an actuator or blocks it. The actuator slides the
> intake camshaft's sprocket forward and backward along the end of the
> camshaft, which intead of having a straight splined end or keyway as
> normal camshafts do, has a worm-gear type spline cut into it. So by
> sliding the sprocket for and aft, the rotational relationship of the cam
> to the sprocket can be varied and that's where you get the timing advance.
>
> So there are no "VANOS" chains, just gears, and there are only the two
> timing chains.
>

Thanks for the clarification. I have only looked at the gears, sprockets,
and chains, then recited what I thought I saw from memory. I wasn't too far
off, and the best way to see what the problem is is to pull the valve cover
and go from there. I remember the VANOS as having chains, but that could
easily be the exhaust/intake chain in addition to the "main chain". I
clearly remember the slotted holes on the intake sprocket, and a rod that
goes to the VANOS thingie.

In any case, thanks for clarifying the description I gave. I hoped that what
I said was close enough to allow somebody to look at the actual parts and
move along with his repairs.




> > There are tensioners for these, and perhaps you have a stuck tensioner.
>
> I suppose the upper timing chain could be loose. I really don't think
> this noise is a chain, but...
>
>
>> No matter what you have, you need to pull the valve cover at the very
>> least to find it.
>>
>
> ...you are probably right about that. I was just wondering what this
> other chatter online about the "VANOS noise" disappearing after changing
> the oil is all about.
>

I haven't heard of this "common" problem either, but I can't argue the point
so I just go along.