Maintenance - neccesities vs. money making

See below.

DAS
--
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

"Neil Nelson" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Dori A Schmetterling" > wrote:
>
> > It seems to me that the only reason oil-change intervals are longer in
> > Europe than in the US is because more people can't kick the habit of
> > changing oil every 3000 miles.
>
> I guess the oil companies -could- be coating their oil bottles
> with some secret addictive substance in order to hook the DIYers,
> and the Goofy Lube places -could- be putting that same substance
> on their service write up counter for the 'I'd rather pay to have
> it done' crowd.
>
> > Even in my driving days (30 years) I don't
> > recollect an interval of less than 6000 miles / 10K km.
>
> Easy enough if you ignore the service schedule that applies if
> you fall under the "severe service" category.

FROM DAS: Not sure what you mean by that. The cars I had alternated basic
service (glorified oil change) with major service (also involving an oil
change, of course). This is before service lights. Now I have my first car
with automated service interval determination.

>
> > Now, of course, the intervals are 10 000 - 12 000 miles or more,
depending
> > on what the service booklet/trip computer indicate.
>
> My Saturn driving customers are having their 'change oil now"
> light come on at very close to 3000 miles, my 'other' GM driving
> customers are having their "change oil now" light come on well
> before 5000 miles, closer to 3500-4000.

FROM DAS. Odd, odd, odd.

> >
> > I find it hard to believe that modern US-origin cars are any different.
> > GM's and Ford's European vehicles aren't, AFAIK.
>
> Could it be that driving habits are different between the two?
> i.e., more mass transit available in Europe, negating the use of
> the automobile for errands and short trips?

In article >,
"Dori A Schmetterling" > wrote:

> See below.
>
> DAS
> --
> For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
> ---
>
> "Neil Nelson" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > "Dori A Schmetterling" > wrote:
> >
> > > It seems to me that the only reason oil-change intervals are longer in
> > > Europe than in the US is because more people can't kick the habit of
> > > changing oil every 3000 miles.
> >
> > I guess the oil companies -could- be coating their oil bottles
> > with some secret addictive substance in order to hook the DIYers,
> > and the Goofy Lube places -could- be putting that same substance
> > on their service write up counter for the 'I'd rather pay to have
> > it done' crowd.
> >
> > > Even in my driving days (30 years) I don't
> > > recollect an interval of less than 6000 miles / 10K km.
> >
> > Easy enough if you ignore the service schedule that applies if
> > you fall under the "severe service" category.
>
> FROM DAS: Not sure what you mean by that. The cars I had alternated basic
> service (glorified oil change) with major service (also involving an oil
> change, of course). This is before service lights. Now I have my first car
> with automated service interval determination.

I mean that before electronic maintenance monitoring, cars came
with a maintenance schedule that contained an "A" schedule for
'normal' duty and a "B" schedule for severe duty.
few vehicles/drivers fell under the "A' schedule.
Also, as explained to me by one of Chryslers engineers (who was
obviously slumming that day); The maintenance schedule was
designed that if followed, the vehicle would perform and meet the
emissions requirements for the duration -of- the emissions
warranty, which back then was 5 years/50 thousand miles.
He summarized the concept by stating that if one wanted his
vehicle to last twice as long as the duration of the warranty,
one would be well advised to do the maintenance twice as often as
was specified.

> >
> > > Now, of course, the intervals are 10 000 - 12 000 miles or more,
> depending
> > > on what the service booklet/trip computer indicate.
> >
> > My Saturn driving customers are having their 'change oil now"
> > light come on at very close to 3000 miles, my 'other' GM driving
> > customers are having their "change oil now" light come on well
> > before 5000 miles, closer to 3500-4000.
>
> FROM DAS. Odd, odd, odd.

Why "odd?" The algorithm dictates when it's time. What it
doesn't take into account is whether synthetic lubricants are
being used.

<snip>

In article >,
says...
>Hi,
>I have a question regarding maintenance on cars both in general and on
>a 2000 Chrysler Sebring JX specifically.
>I just came back from a general inspection that I had and I got a huge
>list of maintenance recommendations from the mechanic (not a brand
>dealer) at a total of almost 1200$. Things on the list we
>- transmission service and transmission fluid flush (350$)
>- flush brake fluid (120$)

Good idea, price way too high.

>- replace drive belts (80$)

I would wait another year or two.

>- replace spark plugs (270$)

Are they solid gold plugs he is putting in there? Price sounds
ridiculous.

>- replace fuel filter (134$)

Good idea to do it. I'm not sure if this is a good price since I
don't know where the filter is. On most cars, this would be very, very
pricey.


>- fuel injection service (220$)

Unecessary unless you are having problems.

>The car has now 63000 miles. If I check the service schedule in the
>owner's manual, the only major thing listed at 60000 is the belts if I
>remember correctly.

Smart thing to do. Go by what is in the book.

>I asked the mechanic whether this was neccessary based on what he
>found during the inspection and the answer was something like "you do
>not have to do these things but we recommend doing it". I asked around
>a little and different people recommend different things - mostly for
>the sake of making money it seems. And the intervals they recommend it
>for seem rather short.

On some items an inspection will not tell you much unless they are just
about to break. But other items a visual inspection will tell you
whether the item needs to be replaced.

>So I guess my question is: Are all these things really worth the
>money?

Not worth it. Some of the service is too soon and other is unecessary.

>Are things like transmission services really necessary if they are not
>listed in the owner's manual's service intervals?

I wouldn't do it.

>I would really not have a problem replacing spark plugs - you can get
>them for a few bucks, but if I now have to pay 250$ for labor for the
>mechanic to just get through to them and then put everything back
>together, the picture changes drastically... I remember when you could
>just pull the rubber cap, take a wrench and do it yourself...

Exactly the point. Ask your mechanic why the price is so high.

>Same with the oil changes every 3000 miles. I know everybody here in
>the US does it - and I guess it's mainly because everybody does it...
>I grew up in Europe/Germany and nobody there bothers with doing oil
>changes unless the car is REALLY old (15 years) or the last oil change
>has been years ago.

I hope I never buy a used car from you! If you look in the service schedule
you will see that you need to change the oil more often than once every
15 years.

>Of course, oil changes don't cost much money, I don't have a problem
>paying 15$ for it every 4 months, but the question is again: is this
>really necessary, and is it neccessary to do it this often?

Yes, it is. But I would not go by time but by mileage. Check your
owners manual. My guess is it would recommend once every 7.5k miles.
-------------
Alex

In article >,
says...

>> Are you in Europe?
>No, I'm in southern california. I guess that's also the reason for the
>high prices - at least partly. The guy is not the cheapest one around,
>but he is AAA approved and has an ASI sign in the door.
^^^

That explains it. If the sign were ASE, then maybe he wouldn't be talking
so much BS.
------------
Alex

--
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

"Neil Nelson" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Dori A Schmetterling" > wrote:
>
> > See below.
> >
> > DAS
> > --
> > For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
> > ---
> >
> > "Neil Nelson" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > In article >,
> > > "Dori A Schmetterling" > wrote:
> > >
> > > > It seems to me that the only reason oil-change intervals are longer
in
> > > > Europe than in the US is because more people can't kick the habit of
> > > > changing oil every 3000 miles.
> > >
> > > I guess the oil companies -could- be coating their oil bottles
> > > with some secret addictive substance in order to hook the DIYers,
> > > and the Goofy Lube places -could- be putting that same substance
> > > on their service write up counter for the 'I'd rather pay to have
> > > it done' crowd.
> > >
> > > > Even in my driving days (30 years) I don't
> > > > recollect an interval of less than 6000 miles / 10K km.
> > >
> > > Easy enough if you ignore the service schedule that applies if
> > > you fall under the "severe service" category.
> >
> > FROM DAS: Not sure what you mean by that. The cars I had alternated
basic
> > service (glorified oil change) with major service (also involving an oil
> > change, of course). This is before service lights. Now I have my first
car
> > with automated service interval determination.
>
> I mean that before electronic maintenance monitoring, cars came
> with a maintenance schedule that contained an "A" schedule for
> 'normal' duty and a "B" schedule for severe duty.
> few vehicles/drivers fell under the "A' schedule.
> Also, as explained to me by one of Chryslers engineers (who was
> obviously slumming that day); The maintenance schedule was
> designed that if followed, the vehicle would perform and meet the
> emissions requirements for the duration -of- the emissions
> warranty, which back then was 5 years/50 thousand miles.
> He summarized the concept by stating that if one wanted his
> vehicle to last twice as long as the duration of the warranty,
> one would be well advised to do the maintenance twice as often as
> was specified.

Am not familiar with this concept. Even with my new car there are
alternating services and i am still waiting for my major service to come
round -- am now at 17 000 miles (after 3 low-mileage years) with another
estimated 5 500 to go.

>
> > >
> > > > Now, of course, the intervals are 10 000 - 12 000 miles or more,
> > depending
> > > > on what the service booklet/trip computer indicate.
> > >
> > > My Saturn driving customers are having their 'change oil now"
> > > light come on at very close to 3000 miles, my 'other' GM driving
> > > customers are having their "change oil now" light come on well
> > > before 5000 miles, closer to 3500-4000.
> >
> > FROM DAS. Odd, odd, odd.
>
> Why "odd?" The algorithm dictates when it's time. What it
> doesn't take into account is whether synthetic lubricants are
> being used.

Because whatever the type of driving, 3 000 - 4 000 miles just seems very
low, even with non-synthetic. The previous service/oil change intervals I
mentioned, of about 6 000 miles, related to 'regular' oil.
>
> <snip>

In article >,
"Dori A Schmetterling" > wrote:

> Am not familiar with this concept. Even with my new car there are
> alternating services and i am still waiting for my major service to come
> round -- am now at 17 000 miles (after 3 low-mileage years) with another
> estimated 5 500 to go.

You go 22500 miles on an oil change?

> > Why "odd?" The algorithm dictates when it's time. What it
> > doesn't take into account is whether synthetic lubricants are
> > being used.
>
> Because whatever the type of driving, 3 000 - 4 000 miles just seems very
> low, even with non-synthetic.

I know people who change their oil every 2000 miles.
Overkill in my book but that's what makes them comfortable.
Their track record in doing so so far includes no oil related
mechanical failures, no emissions failures, increased longevity,
so who am I to tell them that they're doing it wrong against
their "it's cheap insurance" beliefs?

> The previous service/oil change intervals I
> mentioned, of about 6 000 miles, related to 'regular' oil.

The choices of which currently available contain less or none of
the anti-wear additives (ZDDP) that were available and commonly
found in motor oil 9 years ago.

"Neil Nelson" > wrote in message
.. .
> In article >,
> "Dori A Schmetterling" > wrote:
>
> > Am not familiar with this concept. Even with my new car there are
> > alternating services and i am still waiting for my major service to come
> > round -- am now at 17 000 miles (after 3 low-mileage years) with another
> > estimated 5 500 to go.
>
> You go 22500 miles on an oil change?
>
No, I have had one oil change with a "minor" service. Minor and major
services alternate, as I said in an earlier post; each of these include an
oil change.

I must say that I had been used to an initial, mandated (by the
manufacturer) oil change at about 900/1000 miles in a new car, and I had
great trouble resisting this urge to change at that low mileage, which was
no longer required in my vehicle bought in 2001. I checked with an 'old
hand' at the garage of the dealer and he confirmed that (1) I wasn't the
only one with doubts and (2) that I absolutely did not need to change oil
before the point indicated by the trip computer.

I use the recommended oil, Mobil 1, I think. So far I haven't added oil
between services.

In the old days the exceptionally early oil change was, IIRC, to deal with
any 'swarf' that came out as the engine was running in.

DAS
[........]

In article >,
"Dori A Schmetterling" > wrote:

> > You go 22500 miles on an oil change?
> >
> No, I have had one oil change with a "minor" service. Minor and major
> services alternate, as I said in an earlier post; each of these include an
> oil change.

Okay...

> I must say that I had been used to an initial, mandated (by the
> manufacturer) oil change at about 900/1000 miles in a new car, and I had
> great trouble resisting this urge to change at that low mileage, which was
> no longer required in my vehicle bought in 2001. I checked with an 'old
> hand' at the garage of the dealer and he confirmed that (1) I wasn't the
> only one with doubts and (2) that I absolutely did not need to change oil
> before the point indicated by the trip computer.
>
> I use the recommended oil, Mobil 1, I think. So far I haven't added oil
> between services.

The engine oil capacity is?

> In the old days the exceptionally early oil change was, IIRC, to deal with
> any 'swarf' that came out as the engine was running in.

Perhaps they've improved their pre-assembly parts washing
technique.

Finally got to look in my manual: oil capacity is 8 litres.

It also says that oil consumption should not exceed 0.8 l/1000 km under
severe conditions.

BTW, in the 'old days' of the 1000-mile initial oil change the initial
engine oil was extra thin (IIRC) to assist in the debris-removal process and
the idea was to replace it with the 'normal' oil then.

Modern engines are much better built and bench-run so that this is no longer
required.

DAS
--
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

"Neil Nelson" > wrote in message
...
[.......]

> The engine oil capacity is?
>
> > In the old days the exceptionally early oil change was, IIRC, to deal
with
> > any 'swarf' that came out as the engine was running in.
>
> Perhaps they've improved their pre-assembly parts washing
> technique.

In article >,
"Dori A Schmetterling" > wrote:

> Finally got to look in my manual: oil capacity is 8 litres.

Close to double the capacity of the majority of engines currently
in the fleet. I'd be willing to bet that your car also has an
oil cooler as standard equipment.

> It also says that oil consumption should not exceed 0.8 l/1000 km under
> severe conditions.

My metric conversion is a little rusty, but isn't that close to
2 quarts [or more] in 2000 miles?

> BTW, in the 'old days' of the 1000-mile initial oil change the initial
> engine oil was extra thin (IIRC) to assist in the debris-removal process and
> the idea was to replace it with the 'normal' oil then.

There have been many different "break-in oil" schemes over the
years...

> Modern engines are much better built and bench-run so that this is no longer
> required.

Mostly it's better machining techniques, very few manufacturers
run an engine until the end of the assembly line.