Maintenance - neccesities vs. money making

On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Mark wrote:


> I have a question regarding maintenance on cars both in general and on a
> 2000 Chrysler Sebring JX specifically. I just came back from a general
> inspection that I had and I got a huge list of maintenance
> recommendations from the mechanic (not a brand dealer) at a total of
> almost 1200$.

It's doubtful on its face that a 2000 Sebring requires $1200 worth of
maintenance in 2004.

> - transmission service and transmission fluid flush (350$)

VASTLY TOO MUCH MONEY for this service on this car. No bands to adjust and
the linkage never goes out of adjustment, so the fluid and filter change
is all that's required.

> - flush brake fluid (120$)

Not enough people do this often enough. Brake fluid absorbs water; it pays
in brake hydraulic system lifespan to flush and refill the brake fluid
whenever the pads and shoes are changed or every 2 to 3 years. $120 sounds
excessive for it, though.

> - replace drive belts (80$)

If they're original, it's about time. Don't know if there's one or two or
more on this car.

> - replace spark plugs (270$)

WHAT?! Not. Yes, they could probably do with replacement. No, I do not
believe $270 is even close to reasonable for it. I could be wrong; I'm not
intimately familiar with your engine, but there it is.

> - replace fuel filter (134$)

Ditto here -- it's tough to change the fuel filter often enough, but $134
is obscene.

> - fuel injection service (220$)

No. This is today's money making "fishing trip".

> I asked the mechanic whether this was neccessary based on what he
> found during the inspection and the answer was something like "you do
> not have to do these things but we recommend doing it".

Go elsewhere.

> I grew up in Europe/Germany and nobody there bothers with doing oil
> changes unless the car is REALLY old (15 years)

Horse****. Oil change intervals are longer in Europe than in the US, but
they're not a "never" item. If they were, cars wouldn't make it to *five*
years old, let alone 15.

> And finally... does anyone know a really good and honest mechanic in the
> Huntington Beach / Buena Park area who only recommends what the car
> really NEEDS? I dont have a problem if a mechanic is not the cheapest
> one around if I know that he is really good and honest...

Too bad you're not near Ventura.

-Stern

wrote:
>
> ...why do the newer transmissions need to be serviced so
> frequently? Are they that much worse the the old 3-speed transaxles
> like in my dad's Lancer?

A lot of the component design safety factor has been removed because (1)
it's possible with improved machining techniques (closer tolerances so
you mostly only have to pad the design for wear over the specified
design life and much less for dimensional variation, therefore less
forgiving of abuse and lack of maintenance), and (2) there are
tremendous pressures on the manufacturers to make things both lighter
and more compact to compete and satisfy gubmint and consumer demands on
mileage, performance, and handling.

Lighter and more compact means that the same amount of heat (total
energy) is concentrated in much less mass, which equals higher absolute
temperatures. Higher temperature takes its toll on fluid and certain
components.

Years ago, you never heard of anyone changing the fluid in an automatic
tranny (I think it was recommended, but nobody did it), and there were
very few problems over the vehicle life. Today, if you don't do it on a
routine basis, you're asking for trouble for the reasons stated above.

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")


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> Are you in Europe?
No, I'm in southern california. I guess that's also the reason for the
high prices - at least partly. The guy is not the cheapest one around,
but he is AAA approved and has an ASI sign in the door. I checked with
the brand dealers around here (Chrysler and Dodge) and they charge
about 50%-100% more than him...

It seems to me that the only reason oil-change intervals are longer in
Europe than in the US is because more people can't kick the habit of
changing oil every 3000 miles. Even in my driving days (30 years) I don't
recollect an interval of less than 6000 miles / 10K km.

Now, of course, the intervals are 10 000 - 12 000 miles or more, depending
on what the service booklet/trip computer indicate.

I find it hard to believe that modern US-origin cars are any different.
GM's and Ford's European vehicles aren't, AFAIK.

DAS
--
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

"Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
n.umich.edu...
[..........]
>
> > I grew up in Europe/Germany and nobody there bothers with doing oil
> > changes unless the car is REALLY old (15 years)
>
> Horse****. Oil change intervals are longer in Europe than in the US, but
> they're not a "never" item. If they were, cars wouldn't make it to *five*
> years old, let alone 15.
................

In article >,
"Dori A Schmetterling" > wrote:

> It seems to me that the only reason oil-change intervals are longer in
> Europe than in the US is because more people can't kick the habit of
> changing oil every 3000 miles.

I guess the oil companies -could- be coating their oil bottles
with some secret addictive substance in order to hook the DIYers,
and the Goofy Lube places -could- be putting that same substance
on their service write up counter for the 'I'd rather pay to have
it done' crowd.

> Even in my driving days (30 years) I don't
> recollect an interval of less than 6000 miles / 10K km.

Easy enough if you ignore the service schedule that applies if
you fall under the "severe service" category.

> Now, of course, the intervals are 10 000 - 12 000 miles or more, depending
> on what the service booklet/trip computer indicate.

My Saturn driving customers are having their 'change oil now"
light come on at very close to 3000 miles, my 'other' GM driving
customers are having their "change oil now" light come on well
before 5000 miles, closer to 3500-4000.
>
> I find it hard to believe that modern US-origin cars are any different.
> GM's and Ford's European vehicles aren't, AFAIK.

Could it be that driving habits are different between the two?
i.e., more mass transit available in Europe, negating the use of
the automobile for errands and short trips?

First of all thank you to everybody who responded.

I guess the overall opinion is that the quotes which the mechanic gave
me are too high. I called other places around here, also some Chrysler
dealers and he seems to be not too far off. Some of them were cheaper,
some were even more expensive than him.
But even the different Chrysler dealerships quoted me totally
different prices, especially for the Transmission service I had the
full spectrum from 200$ all the way up to 400$.
It seems that this engine requires quite some work in order to get to
places (like to freeze plugs, spark plugs, etc - I have heard this
everytime I asked people in the past or had repairs done myself. And
then there seems to be the "Socal Surcharge" - the fact that simply
everything is more expensive in southern california than other places.

Anyways, I guess I will do the transmission service at the Chrysler
dealer that quoted $200 and flush the brake system, since I have
problems with soft/weak brakes. Then I'll try to see how the belts
look. Fuel filter, injection service and spark plugs I'll wait until I
have more miles or get problems of some kind.

Thanks,

MARK

no and after 7 years since the introduction of them no problems

Art wrote:

> Do you see problems with seized plugs at 100K miles?
>
> "mic canic" > wrote in message
> ...
> > i wrench at a chr./jeep dealer
> > our trans service / flush is 89.95
> > trans filter /service is 145.00 using atf4
> > our injector clean is89.95
> > drive belts a little more
> > plugs on this car are a 100 k service item (platinum) he's taking you for
> > a ride
> > i do seem to think the fuel filter is also a 100k item since it's in the
> > tank
> > hell come to my dealer and i'll save you money! go figure?
> >
> > Mark wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I have a question regarding maintenance on cars both in general and on
> > > a 2000 Chrysler Sebring JX specifically.
> > > I just came back from a general inspection that I had and I got a huge
> > > list of maintenance recommendations from the mechanic (not a brand
> > > dealer) at a total of almost 1200$. Things on the list we
> > > - transmission service and transmission fluid flush (350$)
> > > - flush brake fluid (120$)
> > > - replace drive belts (80$)
> > > - replace spark plugs (270$)
> > > - replace fuel filter (134$)
> > > - fuel injection service (220$)
> > >
> > > The car has now 63000 miles. If I check the service schedule in the
> > > owner's manual, the only major thing listed at 60000 is the belts if I
> > > remember correctly.
> > > I asked the mechanic whether this was neccessary based on what he
> > > found during the inspection and the answer was something like "you do
> > > not have to do these things but we recommend doing it". I asked around
> > > a little and different people recommend different things - mostly for
> > > the sake of making money it seems. And the intervals they recommend it
> > > for seem rather short.
> > >
> > > So I guess my question is: Are all these things really worth the
> > > money?
> > > Are things like transmission services really necessary if they are not
> > > listed in the owner's manual's service intervals?
> > > I would really not have a problem replacing spark plugs - you can get
> > > them for a few bucks, but if I now have to pay 250$ for labor for the
> > > mechanic to just get through to them and then put everything back
> > > together, the picture changes drastically... I remember when you could
> > > just pull the rubber cap, take a wrench and do it yourself...
> > >
> > > Same with the oil changes every 3000 miles. I know everybody here in
> > > the US does it - and I guess it's mainly because everybody does it...
> > > I grew up in Europe/Germany and nobody there bothers with doing oil
> > > changes unless the car is REALLY old (15 years) or the last oil change
> > > has been years ago.
> > > Of course, oil changes don't cost much money, I don't have a problem
> > > paying 15$ for it every 4 months, but the question is again: is this
> > > really necessary, and is it neccessary to do it this often?
> > >
> > > I am curious about what opinions or advise "non-commercial"
> > > technicians or honest mechanics have.
> > >
> > > MARK
> > >
> > > And finally... does anyone know a really good and honest mechanic in
> > > the Huntington Beach / Buena Park area who only recommends what the
> > > car really NEEDS? I dont have a problem if a mechanic is not the
> > > cheapest one around if I know that he is really good and honest...
> >

Thanks.


"mic canic" > wrote in message
...
> no and after 7 years since the introduction of them no problems
>
> Art wrote:
>
> > Do you see problems with seized plugs at 100K miles?
> >
> > "mic canic" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > i wrench at a chr./jeep dealer
> > > our trans service / flush is 89.95
> > > trans filter /service is 145.00 using atf4
> > > our injector clean is89.95
> > > drive belts a little more
> > > plugs on this car are a 100 k service item (platinum) he's taking you
for
> > > a ride
> > > i do seem to think the fuel filter is also a 100k item since it's in
the
> > > tank
> > > hell come to my dealer and i'll save you money! go figure?
> > >
> > > Mark wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > I have a question regarding maintenance on cars both in general and
on
> > > > a 2000 Chrysler Sebring JX specifically.
> > > > I just came back from a general inspection that I had and I got a
huge
> > > > list of maintenance recommendations from the mechanic (not a brand
> > > > dealer) at a total of almost 1200$. Things on the list we
> > > > - transmission service and transmission fluid flush (350$)
> > > > - flush brake fluid (120$)
> > > > - replace drive belts (80$)
> > > > - replace spark plugs (270$)
> > > > - replace fuel filter (134$)
> > > > - fuel injection service (220$)
> > > >
> > > > The car has now 63000 miles. If I check the service schedule in the
> > > > owner's manual, the only major thing listed at 60000 is the belts if
I
> > > > remember correctly.
> > > > I asked the mechanic whether this was neccessary based on what he
> > > > found during the inspection and the answer was something like "you
do
> > > > not have to do these things but we recommend doing it". I asked
around
> > > > a little and different people recommend different things - mostly
for
> > > > the sake of making money it seems. And the intervals they recommend
it
> > > > for seem rather short.
> > > >
> > > > So I guess my question is: Are all these things really worth the
> > > > money?
> > > > Are things like transmission services really necessary if they are
not
> > > > listed in the owner's manual's service intervals?
> > > > I would really not have a problem replacing spark plugs - you can
get
> > > > them for a few bucks, but if I now have to pay 250$ for labor for
the
> > > > mechanic to just get through to them and then put everything back
> > > > together, the picture changes drastically... I remember when you
could
> > > > just pull the rubber cap, take a wrench and do it yourself...
> > > >
> > > > Same with the oil changes every 3000 miles. I know everybody here in
> > > > the US does it - and I guess it's mainly because everybody does
it...
> > > > I grew up in Europe/Germany and nobody there bothers with doing oil
> > > > changes unless the car is REALLY old (15 years) or the last oil
change
> > > > has been years ago.
> > > > Of course, oil changes don't cost much money, I don't have a problem
> > > > paying 15$ for it every 4 months, but the question is again: is this
> > > > really necessary, and is it neccessary to do it this often?
> > > >
> > > > I am curious about what opinions or advise "non-commercial"
> > > > technicians or honest mechanics have.
> > > >
> > > > MARK
> > > >
> > > > And finally... does anyone know a really good and honest mechanic in
> > > > the Huntington Beach / Buena Park area who only recommends what the
> > > > car really NEEDS? I dont have a problem if a mechanic is not the
> > > > cheapest one around if I know that he is really good and honest...
> > >
>

> Could it be that driving habits are different between the two?
> i.e., more mass transit available in Europe, negating the use of
> the automobile for errands and short trips?

That really depends on the person, the habits and the location. But anyways,
300 miles are 3000 miles.

I still suspect that there is no real *NEED* to have it done that often and
that people either know that or just do it in the same interval as everybody
else there - which is less frequently than in the US...

In article >,
Neil Nelson > wrote:
>In article >,
> "Dori A Schmetterling" > wrote:
>> I find it hard to believe that modern US-origin cars are any different.
>> GM's and Ford's European vehicles aren't, AFAIK.
>
>Could it be that driving habits are different between the two?
>i.e., more mass transit available in Europe, negating the use of
>the automobile for errands and short trips?

Perhaps it is because in the US, owners and mechanics are less careful
about using the proper spec oil (at least with respect to less expensive
cars). Even dealers have been known to use the incorrect SAE grade when
servicing cars of the make that they sell. So manufacturers may specify
shorter oil change intervals to compensate for the likelihood that an
oil spec of CarBrandSpecialLongLifeOilSuitableFor20000Miles will be
ignored by many owners and mechanics who will buy the cheapest conventional
oil that they can find (but at willing to change it every 3000 mile).

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy J. Lee
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