Automakers continue to quietly void warranties if you use E 15 gas.

"T0m $herman" > wrote in news:ldfmj8
:

> On 2/12/2014 3:01 AM, Steve W. wrote:
>> T0m $herman wrote:
>>> On 2/10/2014 3:20 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The way most ECMs are mapped they cannot richen the mix enough to
>>>>> compensate for the E15. That causes excess heat in the cylinders,
>>>>> pre-ignition becomes a big problem and you end up with a destroyed
>>>>> engine.
>>>> That's pretty shameful. What if they are run on super-low-octane
>>>> Mexican gas?
>>>> I would expect competent engineers to design systems to deal with
>>>> such things
>>>> seeing that they are only software changes today with no need to
swap
>>>> jets by
>>>> the side of the road.
>>>> --scott
>>>>
>>> My Bonnie manual claims E15 is acceptable to use, and it even has an
>>> air/oil cooled engine (oil cooled heads). But the compression ratio
>>> is very modest at 9.2:1.
>>>
>>> The detonation/pre-ignition sensor feedback should retard spark
timing
>>> enough to prevent damage from E15, unless they doing something stupid
>>> in order to game the EPA tests.
>>>
>>
>> The ecm mapping only goes so far. The O2 sensors and injector mapping
>> also only cover so much.
>>
>> They design for 87/89/93 octane with up to 10% ethanol. Then put the
>> required octane and ethanol % in the book.
>>
>> If you want to burn more ethanol buy a flex fuel. Just hope the
ethanol
>> sensor doesn't fail. They are not cheap.
>>
> Here in Iowa [1], Magellan Pipeline only sends 84 and 91 octane
straight
> gasoline, so our choices at the pump are 87 octane with 10% ethanol, 87
> octane ethanol free blend of the 84 and 91 octane, and 91 octane
> straight. The ethanol free 87 octane is typically $0.30 more per
gallon
> than the 87 octane ethanol blend, but I run it in the motos just to be
> on the safe side.
>
> [1] One of the few remaining states that requires pump fuel to be at
> least 87 octane.
>

and I am still royally ****ed the pipelines are sending that crap gas
to us. Our 89 octane ethanol was good gas, this 87ethanol stuff is trully
crap. I understand why they hate E10 out East now. trully crap gas. I am
trying 20 to 30 % ethanol now and it is running and getting as good or
better milage than 87 octane E10. (no there not flex fuel eng.) KB

Kevin Bottorff wrote:
> "Steve W." > wrote in
> :
>
>> wrote:
>>> On Monday, 3 February 2014 10:26:36 UTC+8, JR wrote:
>>>> I saw that at www.libertypost.org
>>> How could they tell, unless you had the excess ethanol in the tank
>>> when it came into the workshop? To monitor the car for whole
>>> warranty period, what sensors could discriminate ethanol from
>>> hydrocarbons?
>> It is actually very easy to tell just from the engine data.
>>
>> Straight gas will run lower numbers on enrichment both long and short
>> term than E10. O2 numbers are different for straight gas and E10. You
>> will also see different contaminants in the oil and carbon deposits
>> inside the engine.
>>
>> The way most ECMs are mapped they cannot richen the mix enough to
>> compensate for the E15. That causes excess heat in the cylinders,
>> pre-ignition becomes a big problem and you end up with a destroyed
>> engine.
>>
>>
>
> Thats compleat bull, we have pkups that are not flex fuel been running
> E85 and all kinds of mixes for YEARS. (with no problems) That couldn`t
> happen if the ecms were that small of maps range. If it will handel E10
> it won`t even notice E15 difference. KB

Really. You have engines that are not set up for flex running 85%
ethanol? Without any modifications. You might want to talk to the auto
makers and tell them the secret. NONE of their engineers can make it
work without fuel composition sensors to reset the ECM mapping to match
the fuel flow and timing to match the ethanol content.

--
Steve W.

"Steve W." > wrote in
:

> Kevin Bottorff wrote:
>> "Steve W." > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Monday, 3 February 2014 10:26:36 UTC+8, JR wrote:
>>>>> I saw that at www.libertypost.org
>>>> How could they tell, unless you had the excess ethanol in the tank
>>>> when it came into the workshop? To monitor the car for whole
>>>> warranty period, what sensors could discriminate ethanol from
>>>> hydrocarbons?
>>> It is actually very easy to tell just from the engine data.
>>>
>>> Straight gas will run lower numbers on enrichment both long and
>>> short term than E10. O2 numbers are different for straight gas and
>>> E10. You will also see different contaminants in the oil and carbon
>>> deposits inside the engine.
>>>
>>> The way most ECMs are mapped they cannot richen the mix enough to
>>> compensate for the E15. That causes excess heat in the cylinders,
>>> pre-ignition becomes a big problem and you end up with a destroyed
>>> engine.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Thats compleat bull, we have pkups that are not flex fuel been
>> running
>> E85 and all kinds of mixes for YEARS. (with no problems) That
>> couldn`t happen if the ecms were that small of maps range. If it will
>> handel E10 it won`t even notice E15 difference. KB
>
> Really. You have engines that are not set up for flex running 85%
> ethanol? Without any modifications. You might want to talk to the auto
> makers and tell them the secret. NONE of their engineers can make it
> work without fuel composition sensors to reset the ECM mapping to
> match the fuel flow and timing to match the ethanol content.
>

there must be more flexable maping than there letting on because its
happening with no eng problems. it may not be optimized but its working
on many pkups. Now there probly not loading heavy and doing it either.
also not every single time either which would help dilute some. but in
summer quite a lot. KB

On 2014-02-12, Kevin Bottorff > wrote:
> "Steve W." > wrote in
> :
>
>> Kevin Bottorff wrote:
>>> "Steve W." > wrote in
>>> :
>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, 3 February 2014 10:26:36 UTC+8, JR wrote:
>>>>>> I saw that at www.libertypost.org
>>>>> How could they tell, unless you had the excess ethanol in the tank
>>>>> when it came into the workshop? To monitor the car for whole
>>>>> warranty period, what sensors could discriminate ethanol from
>>>>> hydrocarbons?
>>>> It is actually very easy to tell just from the engine data.
>>>>
>>>> Straight gas will run lower numbers on enrichment both long and
>>>> short term than E10. O2 numbers are different for straight gas and
>>>> E10. You will also see different contaminants in the oil and carbon
>>>> deposits inside the engine.
>>>>
>>>> The way most ECMs are mapped they cannot richen the mix enough to
>>>> compensate for the E15. That causes excess heat in the cylinders,
>>>> pre-ignition becomes a big problem and you end up with a destroyed
>>>> engine.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thats compleat bull, we have pkups that are not flex fuel been
>>> running
>>> E85 and all kinds of mixes for YEARS. (with no problems) That
>>> couldn`t happen if the ecms were that small of maps range. If it will
>>> handel E10 it won`t even notice E15 difference. KB
>>
>> Really. You have engines that are not set up for flex running 85%
>> ethanol? Without any modifications. You might want to talk to the auto
>> makers and tell them the secret. NONE of their engineers can make it
>> work without fuel composition sensors to reset the ECM mapping to
>> match the fuel flow and timing to match the ethanol content.
>>
>
> there must be more flexable maping than there letting on because its
> happening with no eng problems. it may not be optimized but its working
> on many pkups. Now there probly not loading heavy and doing it either.
> also not every single time either which would help dilute some. but in
> summer quite a lot. KB

I have personally seen E85 make a car not designed for it run poorly and
the MIL turn on.

On 2/12/2014 9:54 AM, Kevin Bottorff wrote:
> "T0m $herman" > wrote in news:ldfmj8
> :
>
>> On 2/12/2014 3:01 AM, Steve W. wrote:
>>> T0m $herman wrote:
>>>> On 2/10/2014 3:20 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The way most ECMs are mapped they cannot richen the mix enough to
>>>>>> compensate for the E15. That causes excess heat in the cylinders,
>>>>>> pre-ignition becomes a big problem and you end up with a destroyed
>>>>>> engine.
>>>>> That's pretty shameful. What if they are run on super-low-octane
>>>>> Mexican gas?
>>>>> I would expect competent engineers to design systems to deal with
>>>>> such things
>>>>> seeing that they are only software changes today with no need to
> swap
>>>>> jets by
>>>>> the side of the road.
>>>>> --scott
>>>>>
>>>> My Bonnie manual claims E15 is acceptable to use, and it even has an
>>>> air/oil cooled engine (oil cooled heads). But the compression ratio
>>>> is very modest at 9.2:1.
>>>>
>>>> The detonation/pre-ignition sensor feedback should retard spark
> timing
>>>> enough to prevent damage from E15, unless they doing something stupid
>>>> in order to game the EPA tests.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The ecm mapping only goes so far. The O2 sensors and injector mapping
>>> also only cover so much.
>>>
>>> They design for 87/89/93 octane with up to 10% ethanol. Then put the
>>> required octane and ethanol % in the book.
>>>
>>> If you want to burn more ethanol buy a flex fuel. Just hope the
> ethanol
>>> sensor doesn't fail. They are not cheap.
>>>
>> Here in Iowa [1], Magellan Pipeline only sends 84 and 91 octane
> straight
>> gasoline, so our choices at the pump are 87 octane with 10% ethanol, 87
>> octane ethanol free blend of the 84 and 91 octane, and 91 octane
>> straight. The ethanol free 87 octane is typically $0.30 more per
> gallon
>> than the 87 octane ethanol blend, but I run it in the motos just to be
>> on the safe side.
>>
>> [1] One of the few remaining states that requires pump fuel to be at
>> least 87 octane.
>>
>
> and I am still royally ****ed the pipelines are sending that crap gas
> to us. Our 89 octane ethanol was good gas, this 87ethanol stuff is trully
> crap. I understand why they hate E10 out East now. trully crap gas. I am
> trying 20 to 30 % ethanol now and it is running and getting as good or
> better milage than 87 octane E10. (no there not flex fuel eng.) KB
>
States are dropping the minimum 87 octane requirement under blackmail
from the oil refineries who threaten to cut off supplies of fuel during
high demand times unless they are allowed to ship 83 or 84 octane gas
and bring it up to 85 or 86 octane with ethanol. However, almost all
cars made in the last 30 years are designed for 87 octane minimum, and
will have potential engine damage and voided warranties if the lower
grade fuel is used.

Also note that "premium" has gone from 93 octane to 91 octane in most
places.

--
T0m $herm@n