Water Cracking Discovery Alt Energy Future Bright

"Clive" > wrote in message
...
> In message >, AMuzi
> > writes
>>Hydrogen is quick and easy with electrolysis using coal powered
>>electricity. Cost, storage and transport are the sticky wickets.
> If you've already got the electricity, why convert it to a very
> inefficient burning of electrolysis (20% top) compared to a good electric
> motor (up to 98%)?

Electrolysis is only 20% efficient? Hmmmmmmmm......
Recall that you are ALSO getting pure O2 out of the deal, as well. If both
are compressed, basically you have rocket-fueled cars.....

Also, 98% efficient electric motors are boucou expensive.
--
EA


> --
> Clive
>

In message >, Existential Angst
> writes
>"Clive" > wrote in message
...
>> In message >, AMuzi
>> > writes
>>>Hydrogen is quick and easy with electrolysis using coal powered
>>>electricity. Cost, storage and transport are the sticky wickets.
>> If you've already got the electricity, why convert it to a very
>> inefficient burning of electrolysis (20% top) compared to a good electric
>> motor (up to 98%)?
>Electrolysis is only 20% efficient? Hmmmmmmmm......
>Recall that you are ALSO getting pure O2 out of the deal, as well. If both
>are compressed, basically you have rocket-fueled cars.....
>Also, 98% efficient electric motors are boucou expensive.
Sorry I didn't make myself very clear. The act of electrolysis is not
in question, it's the burning of hydrogen that is very poor. You could
usefully use the oxygen, but not in the same vehicle, the mix would be
explosive instead of a controlled burn leading to extensive engine
damage.
Most of the energy released when using hydrocarbon fuels is from
converting Carbon to CO2.
The question of motor efficiencies is down to the gap between the stator
and the rotor and the motor drive electronics. An efficient motor
could more than pay for itself with better mileage.
--
Clive

"Clive" > wrote in message

> Most of the energy released when using hydrocarbon fuels is from
> converting Carbon to CO2.
> Clive
>
Sorry Clive..Your chemistry is way way off. You get the most energy
from hydrogen and oxygen. Carbon and oxygen is less, and the mol
weight of carbon is not advantageous. Hydrocarbons plus oxygen are
better than carbon to oxygen because of the hydrogen present. Check
it in your pchem book.

I did not hear Nocera tell how high efficiency figures he got with his
catalyst. You still wont beat stoichiometric but if it is greatly enhanced,
then maybe it is worth the effort.

Coming from MIT, I hope there is some good science here.

Bloom Energy fuel cells,Article at,
http://www.techchee.com
cuhulin

On Mar 3, 7:07*pm, "Existential Angst" > wrote:
> "AMuzi" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > hls wrote:
>
> >> > wrote in message
> ...
> >>> I saw that at * *http://www.rense.com
> >>> There is a Video too.
> >>> cuhulin
>
> >> Interesting numbers. *If we could actually produce hydrogen quickly
> >> and easily, we could forget fossil fuels and batteries.
>
> >> Dan Nocera, by the way, makes rather limiting statements on
> >> energy density increases of batteries.
>
> > Hydrogen is quick and easy with electrolysis using coal powered
> > electricity. Cost, storage and transport are the sticky wickets.
>
> Why coal electricity?
> Every kitchen in Merka could be producing hydrogen with rooftop solar
> cells -- or a Edmund's Scientific kids solar cell.
> But indeed, compressing it, etc are the biggies. *Would be inneresting to
> calc the energy cost of compressing X BTUs of H2 in a high-pressure
> cylinder.
> --
> EA
>
>
>
>
>
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
> > *<www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > *Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I saw on TV a story about containing H2 in tanks at low pressures
using processed chicken feathers. Let's say this makes storing the
gas in our cars practical. What would you do with it then?

"dsi1" > wrote in message news:7b2d1331-
I saw on TV a story about containing H2 in tanks at low pressures
using processed chicken feathers. Let's say this makes storing the
gas in our cars practical. What would you do with it then?

*******
When we use hydrogen in the lab, we buy it in cylinders which contain
roughly 200 SCF of the gas. It is of course under high pressure but
can be safely handled under these conditions. There are other ways to
store it at lower pressures.

While hydrogen is a small molecule and can penetrate some materials,
it can be dealt with relatively safely. There can be some problems with
keeping it in steel, stainless steel, or titanium but there are other common
metals which will handle it quite well.

One interesting thing...at elevated temperature, hydrogen can pass
through platinum metal almost like water through a filter. I have always
wondered if this might be a fairly cheap way to separate hydrogen from
the air (yes, there is some hydrogen in the atmosphere) or from other
gases containing enriched concentrations of hydrogen. Maybe someday.

On 3/5/2011 10:58 AM, hls wrote:
>
> "dsi1" > wrote in message news:7b2d1331-
> I saw on TV a story about containing H2 in tanks at low pressures
> using processed chicken feathers. Let's say this makes storing the
> gas in our cars practical. What would you do with it then?
>
> *******
> When we use hydrogen in the lab, we buy it in cylinders which contain
> roughly 200 SCF of the gas. It is of course under high pressure but
> can be safely handled under these conditions. There are other ways to
> store it at lower pressures.
>
> While hydrogen is a small molecule and can penetrate some materials,
> it can be dealt with relatively safely. There can be some problems with
> keeping it in steel, stainless steel, or titanium but there are other
> common
> metals which will handle it quite well.
>
> One interesting thing...at elevated temperature, hydrogen can pass
> through platinum metal almost like water through a filter. I have always
> wondered if this might be a fairly cheap way to separate hydrogen from
> the air (yes, there is some hydrogen in the atmosphere) or from other
> gases containing enriched concentrations of hydrogen. Maybe someday.

I'm no longer a big fan of hydrogen power especially if you have to go
to a station to fuel up and really especially if you burn it in a piston
engine. I suppose that setup would be OK if it was a conversion from a
gasoline powered vehicle.

Your idea about filtering H out of the air sounds interesting.

A guy in Poland once made a car body out of chicken fethers and pig
blood and something else to 'glue' it all together.It stank like hell
too!
cuhulin

"hls" > wrote in message
...
>
> "dsi1" > wrote in message news:7b2d1331-
> I saw on TV a story about containing H2 in tanks at low pressures
> using processed chicken feathers. Let's say this makes storing the
> gas in our cars practical. What would you do with it then?
>
> *******
> When we use hydrogen in the lab, we buy it in cylinders which contain
> roughly 200 SCF of the gas. It is of course under high pressure but
> can be safely handled under these conditions. There are other ways to
> store it at lower pressures.
>
> While hydrogen is a small molecule and can penetrate some materials,
> it can be dealt with relatively safely. There can be some problems with
> keeping it in steel, stainless steel, or titanium but there are other
> common
> metals which will handle it quite well.
>
> One interesting thing...at elevated temperature, hydrogen can pass
> through platinum metal almost like water through a filter. I have always
> wondered if this might be a fairly cheap way to separate hydrogen from
> the air (yes, there is some hydrogen in the atmosphere) or from other
> gases containing enriched concentrations of hydrogen. Maybe someday.

Interesting academically perhaps, but likely industrially useless.
Calculate the molar concentration of H in water vs. H2 in air -- a ratio of
like a few trillion to one???
With how much platinum??

Sounds like a project for a grad student who needs to get published or
sumpn....
--
EA


>

On 3/5/2011 11:23 AM, wrote:
> A guy in Poland once made a car body out of chicken fethers and pig
> blood and something else to 'glue' it all together.It stank like hell
> too!
> cuhulin
>

The Poles are insane!