Engine rebuild question

My daily driver '75 1303 started making a horrible knocking sound on
my way to work this morning, and to me it sounds like worn crank
bearings. I stopped and had the car towed home.

The original AR-code 1300 engine was rebuilt in 1995 as a 1641,
although I don't know what the rebuild entailed. Possibly it was just
a top end rebuild. Total miles on the car since new is just under
100K, and since 1995 the car has covered just 5,000 miles.

Anyway, my question is... what would a rebuild to fix this problem
entail? I know the barrels, pistons and heads were new in 1995/5K
miles ago. Would it really be a question of splitting the case and
replacing the crank and bearings? And checking the rods, cam,
pistons, cylinders etc for wear too?

Unfortunately I don't have a lot of spare cash to spend on this car,
so a second-hand engine is probably a better option. But I don't want
to dismiss the original engine just at the moment, and I think a
rebuild would be a great way to learn :-)

Thanks in advance!
--
Howard Rose
www.howard81.co.uk
1966 Volkswagen 1300 Deluxe
1975 Volkswagen 1303S
1962 Austin Mini Seven

Hi Howard,

Wouldn't worn crank bearings cause oil presure first? Just a thought.
I would determine the exact problem.

Anton

Howard Rose wrote:
> My daily driver '75 1303 started making a horrible knocking sound on
> my way to work this morning, and to me it sounds like worn crank
> bearings. I stopped and had the car towed home.
>
> The original AR-code 1300 engine was rebuilt in 1995 as a 1641,
> although I don't know what the rebuild entailed. Possibly it was just
> a top end rebuild. Total miles on the car since new is just under
> 100K, and since 1995 the car has covered just 5,000 miles.
>
> Anyway, my question is... what would a rebuild to fix this problem
> entail? I know the barrels, pistons and heads were new in 1995/5K
> miles ago. Would it really be a question of splitting the case and
> replacing the crank and bearings? And checking the rods, cam,
> pistons, cylinders etc for wear too?
>
> Unfortunately I don't have a lot of spare cash to spend on this car,
> so a second-hand engine is probably a better option. But I don't want
> to dismiss the original engine just at the moment, and I think a
> rebuild would be a great way to learn :-)
>
> Thanks in advance!
> --
> Howard Rose
> www.howard81.co.uk
> 1966 Volkswagen 1300 Deluxe
> 1975 Volkswagen 1303S
> 1962 Austin Mini Seven

Howard,

Sorry to hear of your troubles... good call having her towed home.

Did you or do you know who did the previous rebuild? The biggest
problem with unknown rebuilds (the ones done by the "previous owner" or
by using of the "plug and play" rebuilt motors done by some commercial
VW rebuilder) is the unknown quality of the parts and assembly. The
best rebuilt engine is the one you do yourself.... and yes it is a
great way to learn. The VW motor is a thing of simplistic beauty and as
such is relatively easy to rebuild. There are some concerns unique to
the engine but certainly nothing requiring vast amounts of rocket
science. I would heartily recommend you get a copy of Tom Wilson's
book, "How To Rebuild Your Volkswagen Air-Cooled Engine". Tom's book
will take you by the hand, step-by-step through the entire rebuilding
process; the book will give you a good primer. Also, John Muir's "How
To Keep Your Volkswagen Alive" is a bit more anecdotal in nature but
still has some valuable info in it. And as always, you should have a
copy of the Bently's Official VW Shop manual for your given year(s).
The internet is full of information. If you've not run across Bob
Hoover, your missing out on some great reading. Here's his blog site:

http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.com/

You might consider getting a second-hand motor either to rebuild and
then swap with your existing motor or to swap in while you rebuild your
"big bore" engine. One of the things I learned early on is that the VW
engineers did not put any superflous parts or systems on the engine:
for the best longevity and overall performance, *all* the stuff that
originally came on the engine should be there...and if it's not, put it
back on. Tinware, seals, cooler flaps are some areas where folks get
lazy and either "modify", remove or fail to install these items
correctly. How much will it cost? That would be impossible to say until
you begin your autopsy and take stock of what havoc has been wreaked
upon your engine. Splitting the cases is essentially a rebuild.... and
given the low cost of most engine parts, reusing old stuff is false
economy.

Good luck with your project and I hope this has helped a little....

mike
73T1

On 16 Jan 2007 10:26:52 -0800, "anton" > wrote:

>Hi Howard,
>
>Wouldn't worn crank bearings cause oil presure first? Just a thought.
>I would determine the exact problem.

The oil light didn't come on until the knocking started. That is when
I pulled over. There was a loss of power just beforehand.

What else could the problem be?
--
Howard Rose
www.howard81.co.uk
1966 Volkswagen 1300 Deluxe
1975 Volkswagen 1303S
1962 Austin Mini Seven

On 16 Jan 2007 10:32:26 -0800, "Mike" > wrote:

Thank you for your advice, Mike!


>Did you or do you know who did the previous rebuild? The biggest
>problem with unknown rebuilds (the ones done by the "previous owner" or
>by using of the "plug and play" rebuilt motors done by some commercial
>VW rebuilder) is the unknown quality of the parts and assembly.

Unfortunately I have no idea who rebuilt the engine. I have only
owned the car since November, in which time I have covered about 800
miles. The car had been unused in a garage for two years before, but
it was given a very good service before being recommissioned.

I can only assume the engine is a 1641 since it was upgraded from a
1300, the past registration documents show this was changed in 1995.
Most 1300-1600 upgrades are 1641, hence my assumption! No idea if the
bottom end was rebuilt at that time, or indeed if it was, if it has
remained stock. It was fitted with a Weber progressive carburettor,
but I swapped that for a stock Solex 34PICT-3 setup just after I
bought the car (the Weber drank fuel badly). The exhaust was a 4-tip
Monza, which I was going to replace in the summer (the rear valance
had been replaced with a "smooth" one, so stock peashooters wouldn't
fit).

I have tried to track the owner from '95, but no luck. Unfortunately
since then, the car has passed through three other owners.

Personally, a 1641 wouldn't be my choice - I would build it as a stock
1584 with factory parts. But as I bought it that way...


>The
>best rebuilt engine is the one you do yourself.... and yes it is a
>great way to learn. The VW motor is a thing of simplistic beauty and as
>such is relatively easy to rebuild. There are some concerns unique to
>the engine but certainly nothing requiring vast amounts of rocket
>science. I would heartily recommend you get a copy of Tom Wilson's
>book, "How To Rebuild Your Volkswagen Air-Cooled Engine". Tom's book
>will take you by the hand, step-by-step through the entire rebuilding
>process; the book will give you a good primer. Also, John Muir's "How
>To Keep Your Volkswagen Alive" is a bit more anecdotal in nature but
>still has some valuable info in it. And as always, you should have a
>copy of the Bently's Official VW Shop manual for your given year(s).
>The internet is full of information. If you've not run across Bob
>Hoover, your missing out on some great reading. Here's his blog site:
>
>http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.com/

Excellent, Bob Hoover's articles are certainly a bible for VW owners.
I'll go take another read after this post...


>You might consider getting a second-hand motor either to rebuild and
>then swap with your existing motor or to swap in while you rebuild your
>"big bore" engine. One of the things I learned early on is that the VW
>engineers did not put any superflous parts or systems on the engine:
>for the best longevity and overall performance, *all* the stuff that
>originally came on the engine should be there...and if it's not, put it
>back on. Tinware, seals, cooler flaps are some areas where folks get
>lazy and either "modify", remove or fail to install these items
>correctly. How much will it cost? That would be impossible to say until
>you begin your autopsy and take stock of what havoc has been wreaked
>upon your engine. Splitting the cases is essentially a rebuild.... and
>given the low cost of most engine parts, reusing old stuff is false
>economy.

I have checked everything I can within reason, the flaps were there
and working, as was the tinware and all of the seals and tubes. The
only thing I did notice, is that over the last couple of weeks I've
had to top up the oil level slightly.

I have the Muir and Haynes manual, the Bentley seems impossible to
find over here [UK]. But I will certainly look for the "How To
Rebuild..." book, sounds perfect.

One of my main concerns is that unfortunately this is going to have to
be a budget rebuild. That doesn't mean I am going to cut corners, but
considerations will have to be made. If I could, I would spring for a
Remtec...

One more question though (sorry!), faced with a problem the same as
mine, what would you expect the solution to be? Would it be a case of
certainly replacing the crank and bearings, or does the root of my
problem possibly lie with something more sinister?

Thanks again...
--
Howard Rose
www.howard81.co.uk
1966 Volkswagen 1300 Deluxe
1975 Volkswagen 1303S
1962 Austin Mini Seven

Hi Howard

I just bought some 'junk' engines to learn how to tear down and rebuild.

Literaly 3 hrs and I am ten minutes from splitting the case !

My point is - not a lot of time to spend - and absolutely NO money :-)
to find out whats up.

As for the rebuild - new parts etc - you will know more when its apart.

From memory - reground cranks are about 50 quid - if you need one.

Have you posted this on VZi ?

Also - consider a used engine - as already suggested - whilst you rebuild
yours.

A running engine can be got for around 100 pounds - and youll get that back
when you sell it again afterwards !

Rich

"Howard Rose" > wrote in message
...
> On 16 Jan 2007 10:32:26 -0800, "Mike" > wrote:
>
> Thank you for your advice, Mike!
>
>
>>Did you or do you know who did the previous rebuild? The biggest
>>problem with unknown rebuilds (the ones done by the "previous owner" or
>>by using of the "plug and play" rebuilt motors done by some commercial
>>VW rebuilder) is the unknown quality of the parts and assembly.
>
> Unfortunately I have no idea who rebuilt the engine. I have only
> owned the car since November, in which time I have covered about 800
> miles. The car had been unused in a garage for two years before, but
> it was given a very good service before being recommissioned.
>
> I can only assume the engine is a 1641 since it was upgraded from a
> 1300, the past registration documents show this was changed in 1995.
> Most 1300-1600 upgrades are 1641, hence my assumption! No idea if the
> bottom end was rebuilt at that time, or indeed if it was, if it has
> remained stock. It was fitted with a Weber progressive carburettor,
> but I swapped that for a stock Solex 34PICT-3 setup just after I
> bought the car (the Weber drank fuel badly). The exhaust was a 4-tip
> Monza, which I was going to replace in the summer (the rear valance
> had been replaced with a "smooth" one, so stock peashooters wouldn't
> fit).
>
> I have tried to track the owner from '95, but no luck. Unfortunately
> since then, the car has passed through three other owners.
>
> Personally, a 1641 wouldn't be my choice - I would build it as a stock
> 1584 with factory parts. But as I bought it that way...
>
>
>>The
>>best rebuilt engine is the one you do yourself.... and yes it is a
>>great way to learn. The VW motor is a thing of simplistic beauty and as
>>such is relatively easy to rebuild. There are some concerns unique to
>>the engine but certainly nothing requiring vast amounts of rocket
>>science. I would heartily recommend you get a copy of Tom Wilson's
>>book, "How To Rebuild Your Volkswagen Air-Cooled Engine". Tom's book
>>will take you by the hand, step-by-step through the entire rebuilding
>>process; the book will give you a good primer. Also, John Muir's "How
>>To Keep Your Volkswagen Alive" is a bit more anecdotal in nature but
>>still has some valuable info in it. And as always, you should have a
>>copy of the Bently's Official VW Shop manual for your given year(s).
>>The internet is full of information. If you've not run across Bob
>>Hoover, your missing out on some great reading. Here's his blog site:
>>
>>http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.com/
>
> Excellent, Bob Hoover's articles are certainly a bible for VW owners.
> I'll go take another read after this post...
>
>
>>You might consider getting a second-hand motor either to rebuild and
>>then swap with your existing motor or to swap in while you rebuild your
>>"big bore" engine. One of the things I learned early on is that the VW
>>engineers did not put any superflous parts or systems on the engine:
>>for the best longevity and overall performance, *all* the stuff that
>>originally came on the engine should be there...and if it's not, put it
>>back on. Tinware, seals, cooler flaps are some areas where folks get
>>lazy and either "modify", remove or fail to install these items
>>correctly. How much will it cost? That would be impossible to say until
>>you begin your autopsy and take stock of what havoc has been wreaked
>>upon your engine. Splitting the cases is essentially a rebuild.... and
>>given the low cost of most engine parts, reusing old stuff is false
>>economy.
>
> I have checked everything I can within reason, the flaps were there
> and working, as was the tinware and all of the seals and tubes. The
> only thing I did notice, is that over the last couple of weeks I've
> had to top up the oil level slightly.
>
> I have the Muir and Haynes manual, the Bentley seems impossible to
> find over here [UK]. But I will certainly look for the "How To
> Rebuild..." book, sounds perfect.
>
> One of my main concerns is that unfortunately this is going to have to
> be a budget rebuild. That doesn't mean I am going to cut corners, but
> considerations will have to be made. If I could, I would spring for a
> Remtec...
>
> One more question though (sorry!), faced with a problem the same as
> mine, what would you expect the solution to be? Would it be a case of
> certainly replacing the crank and bearings, or does the root of my
> problem possibly lie with something more sinister?
>
> Thanks again...
> --
> Howard Rose
> www.howard81.co.uk
> 1966 Volkswagen 1300 Deluxe
> 1975 Volkswagen 1303S
> 1962 Austin Mini Seven

Howard Rose wrote:
> On 16 Jan 2007 10:26:52 -0800, "anton" > wrote:
>
>
>>Hi Howard,
>>
>>Wouldn't worn crank bearings cause oil presure first? Just a thought.
>>I would determine the exact problem.
>
>
> The oil light didn't come on until the knocking started. That is when
> I pulled over. There was a loss of power just beforehand.
>
> What else could the problem be?


most likely a rod bearing.
Crank bearing does not cause symptoms like that.

Jan

Jan wrote:
> Howard Rose wrote:
>
>> On 16 Jan 2007 10:26:52 -0800, "anton" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Hi Howard,
>>>
>>> Wouldn't worn crank bearings cause oil presure first? Just a thought.
>>> I would determine the exact problem.
>>
>>
>>
>> The oil light didn't come on until the knocking started. That is when
>> I pulled over. There was a loss of power just beforehand.
>>
>> What else could the problem be?
>
>
>
> most likely a rod bearing.
> Crank bearing does not cause symptoms like that.
>
> Jan

In case it is a rod bearing gone bad, DO NOT START the engine again!
After the initial tell-tale loud knocking sound, you have very little
time left until the rod comes flying off, and then you are looking at a
ruined case, head(s), rods, crank, at least a few pistons and
cylinders.......

Jan

makes sense. I was thinking of main bearings...

Anton

Jan wrote:
> Jan wrote:
> > Howard Rose wrote:
> >
> >> On 16 Jan 2007 10:26:52 -0800, "anton" > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Hi Howard,
> >>>
> >>> Wouldn't worn crank bearings cause oil presure first? Just a thought.
> >>> I would determine the exact problem.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The oil light didn't come on until the knocking started. That is when
> >> I pulled over. There was a loss of power just beforehand.
> >>
> >> What else could the problem be?
> >
> >
> >
> > most likely a rod bearing.
> > Crank bearing does not cause symptoms like that.
> >
> > Jan
>
> In case it is a rod bearing gone bad, DO NOT START the engine again!
> After the initial tell-tale loud knocking sound, you have very little
> time left until the rod comes flying off, and then you are looking at a
> ruined case, head(s), rods, crank, at least a few pistons and
> cylinders.......
>
> Jan

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 19:19:16 -0500, Jan >
wrote:

> In case it is a rod bearing gone bad, DO NOT START the engine again!
> After the initial tell-tale loud knocking sound, you have very little
>time left until the rod comes flying off, and then you are looking at a
>ruined case, head(s), rods, crank, at least a few pistons and
>cylinders.......

Thanks, Jan, the car was towed home and I don't plan to start it
again.

I guess I am looking at a new/reground crank, rods and bearings at
least. Hopefully the rest of the engine will be fine, especially as
the P&C's have very little mileage on them.

I've just ordered Tom Wilson's book, can't wait to get stuck in to
this new project!!!
--
Howard Rose
www.howard81.co.uk
1966 Volkswagen 1300 Deluxe
1975 Volkswagen 1303S
1962 Austin Mini Seven