Disastrous service!

Sorry for all the problems you are having with your car.

'Generally' the worst place to take your car for service is the
dealer.
They aren't really in the car repair business...they are in the car
selling business.
Not saying they are all bad but.....the majority of the horror stories
(like yours) come from folks that 'trust' a dealer to
service/repair/maintain their vehicle.

With all that out of the way....

There are some inexpensive(relatively) things called 'scanners' that
you can connect to your cars OBD (On Board Diagnostic) port that will
give you the 'code', or reason, the warning lights are illuminated on
your dash.
A 'scanner' is a computer that 'talks' to your cars computer(s) and
interprets the reason your car's computer turned on the warning
lights.

Most of them will point to the actual part that probably needs to be
replaced or at least the sub-system of the vehicle that needs
attention.

Armed with this information you can approach the mechanic knowing
what's wrong and, after some rudimentary research on the internet,
about what the cost to repair the problem should cost.

I'm not saying the dealer you went to is dishonest.....
But I would question why they didn't see the oil leak while they were
under there changing the oil.

The starter going bad is probably just 'incidental'. They go bad and
have to be changed periodically.

I suppose if the dealer makes you feel like your car is 'falling
apart' then they think they will have a shot at selling you a new
car.
Not saying this is their motive, at all.

Find a mechanic you can 'talk to' and communicate with.
Preferably one that repairs/fixes/maintains cars and that's his number
one line of work.
Buy a scanner that will allow you to do a lot of the diagnosing
yourself.
IMHO, don't take your car to a dealer... for anything. That's just my
'opinion' (don't want to get in trouble here,lol).

100 point 'courtesy check' ..... Don't let ANYONE go 'fishing' on
your car. Again this is JMHO but this gives the dealer another
chance to find all sorts of things wrong that may sway you to
purchase another vehicle from them.
I'm not always correct but this just doesn't seem like something they
do with your 'car health' in mind.

Good luck with your vehicle.

VetNutJim wrote:

> 'Generally' the worst place to take your car for service is the
> dealer.

> They aren't really in the car repair business...they are in the car
> selling business.

That was true several decades ago, but dealerships now derive most of
their profits from the service dept., not the sales dept.

> Not saying they are all bad but.....the majority of the horror stories
> (like yours) come from folks that 'trust' a dealer to
> service/repair/maintain their vehicle.

The only way the majority of horror stories could be due to dealer
service would be if the majority of service, or at least the majority
of the difficult service, was done by dealers. Dealers tend to be
better equipped and their mechanics better trained, so why should they
be worse than other places?

MaceFace wrote:
> VetNutJim wrote:
>
>
>>'Generally' the worst place to take your car for service is the
>>dealer.
>
>
>>They aren't really in the car repair business...they are in the car
>>selling business.
>
>
> That was true several decades ago, but dealerships now derive most of
> their profits from the service dept., not the sales dept.
>
>
>>Not saying they are all bad but.....the majority of the horror stories
>>(like yours) come from folks that 'trust' a dealer to
>>service/repair/maintain their vehicle.
>
>
> The only way the majority of horror stories could be due to dealer
> service would be if the majority of service, or at least the majority
> of the difficult service, was done by dealers. Dealers tend to be
> better equipped and their mechanics better trained, so why should they
> be worse than other places?
>

Well... my experience with dealerships is that they are arrogant, don't
want to work on anything more than a few years old, and are sometimes
spectactularly incompetent. I could tell you stories about a little
go-round I had with a completely incompetent VW dealership service dept.
in Livonia, MI...

Now to be perfectly honest, I find that a *good* bechanic is hard to
find, dealership or no. So there'll probably be lots of horror stories
to go around. This is not meant as a slight to the good mechanics out
there, and there are some. But I find myself often frustrated at paying
someone who knows less about my car than I do to work on it.

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

"Nate Nagel" > wrote in message
...
> MaceFace wrote:
> > VetNutJim wrote:
> >
> >
> >>'Generally' the worst place to take your car for service is the
> >>dealer.
> >
> >
> >>They aren't really in the car repair business...they are in the car
> >>selling business.
> >
> >
> > That was true several decades ago, but dealerships now derive most of
> > their profits from the service dept., not the sales dept.
> >
> >
> >>Not saying they are all bad but.....the majority of the horror stories
> >>(like yours) come from folks that 'trust' a dealer to
> >>service/repair/maintain their vehicle.
> >
> >
> > The only way the majority of horror stories could be due to dealer
> > service would be if the majority of service, or at least the majority
> > of the difficult service, was done by dealers. Dealers tend to be
> > better equipped and their mechanics better trained, so why should they
> > be worse than other places?
> >
>
> Well... my experience with dealerships is that they are arrogant, don't
> want to work on anything more than a few years old, and are sometimes
> spectactularly incompetent. I could tell you stories about a little
> go-round I had with a completely incompetent VW dealership service dept.
> in Livonia, MI...
>

The problem with dealerships isn't that they don't want to do the work,
the problem is that if the repair isn't "textbook" then they always take
the least-cost path. In other words, if they fix your car and something
goes wrong with the repair where you have to take it back to them,
the dealerships are not willing to take a loss on fixing the problem.

An independent shop is usually run by the owner, who is paying
himself for time he works. If he makes a mistake diagnosing the car
and as a result the repair isn't made, and the customer brings the
car back, the shop owner knows he has to keep working at it
until it's fixed. If that has to happen off the clock then it happens off
the clock - that's the price he pays for misdiagnosing it, and he
knows it.

By contrast a dealership service department since they pay their
mechanics for all time worked, if one of their techs makes a
mistake on a repair and they have to eat the costs of a warranty
claim, it isn't long before the service manager puts a stop to further
losses on the customer vehicle by simply making excuses to the
customer designed to make them go away.

Ted

> Now to be perfectly honest, I find that a *good* bechanic is hard to
> find, dealership or no. So there'll probably be lots of horror stories
> to go around. This is not meant as a slight to the good mechanics out
> there, and there are some. But I find myself often frustrated at paying
> someone who knows less about my car than I do to work on it.
>
> nate
>
> --
> replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
> http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> "Nate Nagel" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>MaceFace wrote:
>>
>>>VetNutJim wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>'Generally' the worst place to take your car for service is the
>>>>dealer.
>>>
>>>
>>>>They aren't really in the car repair business...they are in the car
>>>>selling business.
>>>
>>>
>>>That was true several decades ago, but dealerships now derive most of
>>>their profits from the service dept., not the sales dept.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Not saying they are all bad but.....the majority of the horror stories
>>>>(like yours) come from folks that 'trust' a dealer to
>>>>service/repair/maintain their vehicle.
>>>
>>>
>>>The only way the majority of horror stories could be due to dealer
>>>service would be if the majority of service, or at least the majority
>>>of the difficult service, was done by dealers. Dealers tend to be
>>>better equipped and their mechanics better trained, so why should they
>>>be worse than other places?
>>>
>>
>>Well... my experience with dealerships is that they are arrogant, don't
>>want to work on anything more than a few years old, and are sometimes
>>spectactularly incompetent. I could tell you stories about a little
>>go-round I had with a completely incompetent VW dealership service dept.
>>in Livonia, MI...
>>
>
>
> The problem with dealerships isn't that they don't want to do the work,
> the problem is that if the repair isn't "textbook" then they always take
> the least-cost path. In other words, if they fix your car and something
> goes wrong with the repair where you have to take it back to them,
> the dealerships are not willing to take a loss on fixing the problem.
>
> An independent shop is usually run by the owner, who is paying
> himself for time he works. If he makes a mistake diagnosing the car
> and as a result the repair isn't made, and the customer brings the
> car back, the shop owner knows he has to keep working at it
> until it's fixed. If that has to happen off the clock then it happens off
> the clock - that's the price he pays for misdiagnosing it, and he
> knows it.
>
> By contrast a dealership service department since they pay their
> mechanics for all time worked, if one of their techs makes a
> mistake on a repair and they have to eat the costs of a warranty
> claim, it isn't long before the service manager puts a stop to further
> losses on the customer vehicle by simply making excuses to the
> customer designed to make them go away.
>
> Ted
>
>
>>Now to be perfectly honest, I find that a *good* bechanic is hard to
>>find, dealership or no. So there'll probably be lots of horror stories
>>to go around. This is not meant as a slight to the good mechanics out
>>there, and there are some. But I find myself often frustrated at paying
>>someone who knows less about my car than I do to work on it.
>>
>>nate
>>
>>--
>>replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
>>http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel
>
>
>
Bull****!

I worked in a Chevy dealership. We got the book rate. If it came back we
got nothing to fix it. Comebacks were the death of a good week, to be
avoided at all costs! At the end of the week if I made 40 hrs of book
rate for 40 hrs of work, I thought I did rather well!

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

> The problem with dealerships isn't that they don't want to do the
> work, the problem is that if the repair isn't "textbook" then they
> always take the least-cost path. In other words, if they fix your
> car and something goes wrong with the repair where you have to take
> it back to them,
> the dealerships are not willing to take a loss on fixing the problem.
>
> An independent shop is usually run by the owner, who is paying
> himself for time he works. If he makes a mistake diagnosing the car
> and as a result the repair isn't made, and the customer brings the
> car back, the shop owner knows he has to keep working at it
> until it's fixed. If that has to happen off the clock then it
> happens off the clock - that's the price he pays for misdiagnosing
> it, and he
> knows it.
>
> By contrast a dealership service department since they pay their
> mechanics for all time worked, if one of their techs makes a
> mistake on a repair and they have to eat the costs of a warranty
> claim, it isn't long before the service manager puts a stop to further
> losses on the customer vehicle by simply making excuses to the
> customer designed to make them go away.

You are out of your mind! We "always" keep working on the
vehicle until it's finished. Even if we eat the whole thing. It's usually
the independent's that do not have the "deep pockets" that the
dealership has. So they basically tell the customer to get lost. We
get spillover work from independents all the time.

And yes, we do "textbook" repairs. We aren't into "cobbling" ****
together just to make the customer happy. It's either done "our"
way, or they can head on over to the independent who can
"cobble" something together and then deal with the asshole customer.

Either way, we keep the headaches and ****ty customers to
a minimum.

Ian

shiden_kai Wrote:
> Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>
> > The problem with dealerships isn't that they don't want to do the
> > work, the problem is that if the repair isn't "textbook" then they
> > always take the least-cost path. In other words, if they fix your
> > car and something goes wrong with the repair where you have to take
> > it back to them,
> > the dealerships are not willing to take a loss on fixing the
> problem.
> >
> > An independent shop is usually run by the owner, who is paying
> > himself for time he works. If he makes a mistake diagnosing the car
> > and as a result the repair isn't made, and the customer brings the
> > car back, the shop owner knows he has to keep working at it
> > until it's fixed. If that has to happen off the clock then it
> > happens off the clock - that's the price he pays for misdiagnosing
> > it, and he
> > knows it.
> >
> > By contrast a dealership service department since they pay their
> > mechanics for all time worked, if one of their techs makes a
> > mistake on a repair and they have to eat the costs of a warranty
> > claim, it isn't long before the service manager puts a stop to
> further
> > losses on the customer vehicle by simply making excuses to the
> > customer designed to make them go away.
>
> You are out of your mind! We "always" keep working on the
> vehicle until it's finished. Even if we eat the whole thing. It's
> usually
> the independent's that do not have the "deep pockets" that the
> dealership has. So they basically tell the customer to get lost. We
> get spillover work from independents all the time.
>
> And yes, we do "textbook" repairs. We aren't into "cobbling" ****
> together just to make the customer happy. It's either done "our"
> way, or they can head on over to the independent who can
> "cobble" something together and then deal with the asshole customer.
>
> Either way, we keep the headaches and ****ty customers to
> a minimum.
>
> Ian
As a 20 year GM service mgr I agree with Ian, problem is not every
dealership is managed in this manner, the sign over the door is only as
good as the worst guy in the shop. ( Had this on the wall of my office)


--
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Nate Nagel wrote:

> Well... my experience with dealerships is that they are arrogant, don't
> want to work on anything more than a few years old, and are sometimes
> spectactularly incompetent. I could tell you stories about a little
> go-round I had with a completely incompetent VW dealership service dept.
> in Livonia, MI...

You'll probalby do many people a favor by naming that dealership.

> Now to be perfectly honest, I find that a *good* mechanic is hard to
> find, dealership or no. So there'll probably be lots of horror stories
> to go around. This is not meant as a slight to the good mechanics out
> there, and there are some. But I find myself often frustrated at paying
> someone who knows less about my car than I do to work on it.

I can easily find people to do maintenance and parts R&R competently,
but in my experience, only 25% of the mechanics are good at diagnosis,
witness all the drivability problems that are handled by doing useless
tune-ups.

MaceFace wrote:

> I can easily find people to do maintenance and parts R&R competently,
> but in my experience, only 25% of the mechanics are good at diagnosis,
> witness all the drivability problems that are handled by doing useless
> tune-ups.

If people actually understood "how" most technicians are paid,
then they would quickly understand why maintenance and
parts R&R can be done quickly and competently, and why
it "appears" that most mechanics aren't that good at the
diagnostic end of it.

In one word, "incentive"....or there is "none" when it
comes to diagnosis. But there is "plenty" when it comes
to maintenance and parts replacement.

Ian

"shiden_kai" > wrote in message
news:6DW_g.181197$R63.10328@pd7urf1no...
> MaceFace wrote:
>
>> I can easily find people to do maintenance and parts R&R competently,
>> but in my experience, only 25% of the mechanics are good at diagnosis,
>> witness all the drivability problems that are handled by doing useless
>> tune-ups.
>
> If people actually understood "how" most technicians are paid,
> then they would quickly understand why maintenance and
> parts R&R can be done quickly and competently, and why
> it "appears" that most mechanics aren't that good at the
> diagnostic end of it.
>
> In one word, "incentive"....or there is "none" when it
> comes to diagnosis. But there is "plenty" when it comes
> to maintenance and parts replacement.
>
> Ian

That indicates that there should be a consolidated approach to diagnosis and
repair
as part of the basic job. A person or team has to be paid for the job
successfully done.
There has to be a commitment (as in ISO) for constant improvement, and I
believe
that customers would bitch less and pay easier if they felt that the
dealership shop was
really providing best in class service. (And, some do, while some very much
dont)