Any true Lemons?

There seems to be lots of cars where one person could tell you the
horror stories of *theirs*, but compared to the hundreds of thousands
of other cars identical to it that soldiered on unfalteringly, it's
relatively easy to write it off as a single 'bad apple'. Or owner
habits. etc.

But were there ever any cars in which each and every one that rolled
off the assembly line was indisputably a complete POS in most every
way possible? Even one way possible?

I find it hard to believe that such a thing would exist.

-phaeton

Well, I think I would like to own one of those old East German warbling
Wartburg cars to play around with.
cuhulin

phaeton wrote:
> There seems to be lots of cars where one person could tell you the
> horror stories of *theirs*, but compared to the hundreds of thousands
> of other cars identical to it that soldiered on unfalteringly, it's
> relatively easy to write it off as a single 'bad apple'. Or owner
> habits. etc.
>
> But were there ever any cars in which each and every one that rolled
> off the assembly line was indisputably a complete POS in most every
> way possible? Even one way possible?
>
> I find it hard to believe that such a thing would exist.
>
> -phaeton
>

What's your timeframe? I'd wager that in the last 20 years there
haven't been any real "lemons" per say, instead, it seems that most cars
out there that suffer all have some kind of "design" flaw where you go
"WTF", such as the engine bay on the 93-2002 Camaro/Firebird. Plug
changes on these things are a major PITA, and I can't even fathom how
I'd pull a cylinder head off with the motor in the car. (I own a 2001
Trans Am...)

The cars are better designed and better built, but it's obvious to me
that the engineers still don't ever spend time looking the prototypes
over for serviceability.

Ray

I postulate three kinds of lemons: the Statistical Lemon, the
Systematic Lemon, and the Comprehensive Lemon.

Consider random vs. systematic error. There will be a few of these
Statistical Lemons in any manufacturer's basket due to statistical
scatter of quality. The LEMON as Left-hand Extreme Modal Outlier
from the Norm. This also suggests the existence of antilemons -
machines that get the best parts, machines in which all the tolerance
stacking cancels out instead of being additive, that sort of thing.
Total quality management and sheer skill and diligence can help bulge
the curve and shift it to the right.

There are also cars that have a fundamental design flaw; no amount of
six-sigma philosophy or machining skill would have kept an unsleeved
Chevy Vega engine from leaving behind a horizontal blue tornado of oil
smoke, for instance (there are numerous other examples). Lincoln's
late 50s attempt to go too far too fast in scaling up the unibody,
requiring porcine extremes of reinforcement. The first generation
Corvair suspension. There was a whole era of cars in the late 70s and
early 80s with underprivileged trannies and/or finicky and baroque
engine controls, some worse than others (variable venturi carbs and
all that). And don't forget GM's first generation attempt to make a
diesel out of a gasoline small block. If those are small things we
call them annoyances and competitve disadvantages; if they are big, or
medium-sized and numerous, we may think of that car as a Systematic
Lemon.

The kind of Comprehensive Lemon you described -- a car that from
bumper to bumper was '62 Mets bad (for non baseball followers, their
manager supposedly moaned, en route to a record-settingly awful
season, "Doesn't *anybody* here know how to play this game?") -- is a
rather less common beast, thanks to the competitive pressures of a
free market. You might look at some Iron Curtain offerings. I've
never had the dubious pleasure of the Trabant, but it might be
considered an example.

There were also cars that weren't necessarily bad for what they were,
but proved to be "a solution in search of a problem" or else not
enough car for a given market (the early attempts to sell microcars
from Honda and Subaru in the US come to mind). Of course, both
companies eventually came to be considered quality leaders that did
good business here. That makes me wonder if at the opposite extreme,
your question will turn up not only Comprehensive Lemon models, but
Comprehensive Lemon makes -- companies that never managed to turn out
what, in their place and time, was considered a good car.

Interesting proposition!

Those Ford MUTT Jeeps had an interesting suspension system.If I
remember, they had individual four wheel suspension with coil springs
and U Joints on the shafts to each one of the wheels.At one least one
(or more) of those Jeeps, after going airborne from hitting big enough
bumps and then coming back to the ground, the wheels folded
inward.Contrast that with the World War Two era Jeeps.Army Air Force had
some real Airborne Jeeps, they were dropped to the ground via
Parachutes.Those Airborne Jeeps didn't look much like the regular Jeeps.
cuhulin

99-02 Dodge Intrepids with the 2.7 liter engine. Engine failures common
under 30K especially if the oil was not changed frequently. We had a 99 and
an 02 at our shop a couple of months ago with well under 100k thta had
toasted engines. 1 had already had the engine replaced and the owner didn't
bother changing the oil in the new engine either. I sold quite a few used
2.7s while I was in the auto parts business. $3K a pop. OUCH.

I sold my 99 with 166k on it and still running but weak oil pump and lots of
blowby. Oil got changed religiously.
Most expensive repair on the vehicle was 2 transmission switches for $12
each and $85 to install em. Do the maintenance!
Andy

"phaeton" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> There seems to be lots of cars where one person could tell you the
> horror stories of *theirs*, but compared to the hundreds of thousands
> of other cars identical to it that soldiered on unfalteringly, it's
> relatively easy to write it off as a single 'bad apple'. Or owner
> habits. etc.
>
> But were there ever any cars in which each and every one that rolled
> off the assembly line was indisputably a complete POS in most every
> way possible? Even one way possible?
>
> I find it hard to believe that such a thing would exist.
>
> -phaeton
>

apparently due to the lemon laws in the states, the lemons are shipped
to canada and sold on used car lots.

> 1 had already had the engine replaced and the owner didn't
> bother changing the oil in the new engine either.

"Reverse robbery" -- Some customers stick a gun in your ribs and force
you to take their money. There have always been people who add a
quart of motor oil whenever the burnt smell becomes noticeable in the
passenger compartment, and never change the air filter because it has
gotten so dirty they don't want to touch it, and... ah, you know all
the signs. For sure, an abusive or neglectful owner and a perhaps
otherwise decent machine with an Achilles heel add up to that scent of
lemon.

I wonder if such engines are behind the "lifetime powertrain warranty"
that Chrysler is touting these days.

Another example might be certain allegedly oil-sludging Toyota fours
of the early-mid 90s. I'm not sure what I think of the cause and
extent of the problem, exactly, but for sure I wouldn't buy a used one
from that period without reason to believe that the owner had changed
the oil on more or less the severe service schedule.

--Joe

In the 1970s, I bought a 1962 Ford Falcon four door six cylinder
standard shift transmission.The next night when I was driving that car
out on the interstate, it came to a stop just as though I had turned off
the ignition switch.I had plenty of gas in the car.I popped the hood,
the air filter was so clogged up the engine wasen't getting any air.Then
the car ran like a champ.
cuhulin

On Nov 13, 10:23 pm, phaeton > wrote:
> There seems to be lots of cars where one person could tell you the
> horror stories of *theirs*, but compared to the hundreds of thousands
> of other cars identical to it that soldiered on unfalteringly, it's
> relatively easy to write it off as a single 'bad apple'. Or owner
> habits. etc.
>
> But were there ever any cars in which each and every one that rolled
> off the assembly line was indisputably a complete POS in most every
> way possible? Even one way possible?
>
> I find it hard to believe that such a thing would exist.
>
> -phaeton

A few decades back, Vauxhalls imported into Canada were dying in such
droves that the surviving owners organized a caravan to Ottawa to
demand some sort of justice. A bunch of the cars in the caravan caught
fire en route.