Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home

On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 22:34:02 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon wrote:

> how can total toe be specified in degrees when it's measured
> in inches?

Silly, it's specified in degrees because it's measured in degrees. HTH.
--
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.

John Harmon posted for all of us...


>
> Tekkie? actually said:
>
> > The BMW sounds like a great value... Have you considered having it bronzed?
>
> Tekkie,
>
> Why do you constantly pollute this thread with your worthless drivel?
> You don't know the answer to *any* question asked.
> Not one.
>
> Yet, you pollute the thread nonetheless.

I know the answers as I have done alignments in the past.

You have repeatedly been given excellent answers without learning.

I think you are a troll and are polluting this thread. Why don't you go over
to a BMW group? They are probably not as patient as we are.

I will post what you consider is drivel since you are a troll. I am glad you
are the arbiter of this news group, keep up the lousy job.

I suggest that all this trolls "questions" have been answered many times and
any more replies be treated as such, but that's just me.
--
Tekkie

John Harmon > wrote:
>Scott Dorsey actually said:
>
>> I mean the big rubber hose going between the throttle body and the airflow
>> sensor. It cracks and then the airflow data becomes invalid and the car
>> starts running lean. You can patch the cracks with 3M weatherstripping
>> adhesive for a while until after a while you can't.
>
>Oh, yeah. I know it all too well.
>
>My first smoke test for a lean condition showed a crack on the *underside*
>of that large ribbed tube. A few years later, my second smoke test showed
>that the tubes sticking out had leaks.
>
>It would have been cheaper to just replace the damn things, instead of
>doing all those expensive smoke tests, which was your point, I agree!

First of all, if you'd had a competent BMW mechanic, he would have replaced
it before it failed.

Secondly, when it DID fail, he would have looked at that and at the hose
underneath it as the first things that cause leaks into the throttle body.

Thirdly, if he didn't know any of these things, it should have taken him
less than five minutes to find the leak with a can of starting fluid. There
is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE for someone to bring out the smoke machine for that
sort of leak unless they are trying really hard to find ways to bill their
customers for something.

This is an EXACT example of what I am talking about when I say that doing
maintenance is cheaper than doing repairs.

>> The issue on this one is that the they are using that TO220 FET as a linear
>> regulator to adjust the voltage on the motor, and it develops a lot of heat
>> of course.
>
>Maybe you can answer a question which has irked me for years.
>As you know, the AC/Heating system is "fully automatic" meaning it's not
>intended for manual control, so, the blower starts at whatever settting it
>wants to start at when you start the car, no matter what setting you left
>it at when you last shut down the car.
>
>I *always* adjust that, either to *off* or to the midway position.
>
>But what I always wondered was, if the blower is on at all, whether the
>full on, or midway position caused less stress on the FSU?

If you have it on full, the transistor is completely turned on and so there
is less heat being generated in that configuration. However, if you have to
worry about what position of the heater puts less stress on it, something
is wrong. Put a retrofit one in there and it won't fail.

>
>The ABS "trifecta" failing on the E38, E39, and E46 is also shameful.
>So is the trunk wiring loom fraying on almost every vehicle.
>And the headlight adjusters crumbling on some of the models like mine.

ABS I don't know about... but everybody knows about the loom so everybody
wraps it. If yours wasn't wrapped, it will fail.

Likewise the headlight assemblies can be replaced with European spec ones
in some cases, which don't fail. It's only the wacky DOT ones for the
American market that are an issue.

>> I'm just a guy who likes to drive cars for a long time, and I like BMWs
>
>Thanks for your insight.
>Very interesting!

I just rolled over 360,000 miles on the new car this afternoon. Should have
it at 400,000 before 2018 starts.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 12/11/2016 10:09 AM, amdx wrote:
> On 12/10/2016 6:08 PM, John Harmon wrote:
>> amdx actually said:
>>
>>> If either of those devices had a laser pointer in them that point
>>> up, you could do a trig problem using the ceiling for camber, and on the
>>> front wall by rotating the device 90* for toe.
>>
>> I think you're one of the few people who are actually *thinking* about
>> what
>> they are saying on this thread, and for that, I very much appreciate your
>> sugestions.
>>
>> It seems, from what Andy Burns intimated, that the smart phones use
>> gravity-based accelerometers (with the compass) and not inclinometers,
>> so,
>> while they can be used for camber, the accuracy will be about plus or
>> minus
>> six minutes.
>>
>> However, to use them for toe (as I think it was tlvp who suggested that),
>> would be folly, I think, simply because toe is in a different plane where
>> gravity isn't different for various angles of toe.
>>
>> However, the laser beam is in the right plane for toe measurements!
>> So is the centerline of the car.
>>
>> So it should, in theory, be easy to do something like this:
>> a. Attach a laser to the car centerline and mark where it hits a wall.
>> b. Attach that laser to the wheel and mark where it intersects.
>> c. That's the triangle!
>> https://s18.postimg.org/fq07txfih/11...a_triangle.gif
>>
>> NOTE: I haven't calculated yet the *distance* it would take for the
>> centerline and tire to hit the wall, which could be prohibitive.
>>
>>> Hey, just noticed your link,
>>> http://i.cubeupload.com/XocXQ9.jpg
>>> has the sears level shown here,
>>> http://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-in...P?sid=BVReview
>>>
>>
>> That level is "accurate to 1/10th of a degree" (six minutes) so that must
>> be the standard accuracy of the inclinometers in digital levels.
>>
>>> The Sears level does have a laser in it.
>>> That will do what I suggest, rotate it 90* and point it forward to see
>>> a spot on the wall. Find the centerline of your car and then it's a
>>> simple trig problem.
>>
>> I think you hit upon a good idea which is to use the laser as the
>> straight
>> line for the vehicle centerline and for the tire angle, because where
>> they
>> intersect will be the triangle we need to measure.
>> http://i.cubeupload.com/BzNqBY.gif
>>
>> The only problem may be the length of the Adjacent (centerline) mark.
>>
>>> The hard part, finding the centerline of your car.
>>> I'm not sure this helps you though, I saw no evidence that you
>>> understood how the trig solves turning the angle into inches.
>>
>> The trig is easy. soh cah toa.
>> What's hard is figuring out what the triangles are for "total toe":
>> https://s23.postimg.org/ajrtf269n/10...toe_angles.gif
>>
>> Most people here don't even understand the question because they keep
>> saying it's a math problem. But the math is trivial. My confusion is
>> how on
>> earth do they specific total toe in degrees when total toe is simply the
>> difference in toe from the rear to the front of the tire/wheel but toe
>> angles are the *same* at the rear and front of the wheel!
>>
>> I'm sure the answer to that question is simple but everyone says it's a
>> math trig issue but it's really a conceptual misunderstanding on my part.
>>
> I think you have a misunderstanding of total toe. It is simply Right
> wheel toe plus Left wheel toe. I don't see why it needs to be measured,
> if you have set left and right, total toe is just the addition of the
> two angles.
> See the explanation on page two, in the verbiage below the top left
> figure. > http://www.hunter.com/Portals/0/Media/995-T-2.pdf
>
> All your draws use the centerline of your tire, which you can't
> physically do. I would use the outside of the wheel, however, when you
> get your adapter with laser built, the line will be further out from the
> wheel edge.
> Here's my vision. Feel from to make your own drawing, Paint wouldn't
> modify yours the way I wanted.
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/jap3k6l6z3...%20IN.jpg?dl=0
>
> Mikek
>
>
>
Rather disappointed I didn't get a response.
Mikek

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 17:16:49 -0600, amdx > wrote:

>On 12/11/2016 10:09 AM, amdx wrote:
>> On 12/10/2016 6:08 PM, John Harmon wrote:
>>> amdx actually said:
>>>
>>>> If either of those devices had a laser pointer in them that point
>>>> up, you could do a trig problem using the ceiling for camber, and on the
>>>> front wall by rotating the device 90* for toe.
>>>
>>> I think you're one of the few people who are actually *thinking* about
>>> what
>>> they are saying on this thread, and for that, I very much appreciate your
>>> sugestions.
>>>
>>> It seems, from what Andy Burns intimated, that the smart phones use
>>> gravity-based accelerometers (with the compass) and not inclinometers,
>>> so,
>>> while they can be used for camber, the accuracy will be about plus or
>>> minus
>>> six minutes.
>>>
>>> However, to use them for toe (as I think it was tlvp who suggested that),
>>> would be folly, I think, simply because toe is in a different plane where
>>> gravity isn't different for various angles of toe.
>>>
>>> However, the laser beam is in the right plane for toe measurements!
>>> So is the centerline of the car.
>>>
>>> So it should, in theory, be easy to do something like this:
>>> a. Attach a laser to the car centerline and mark where it hits a wall.
>>> b. Attach that laser to the wheel and mark where it intersects.
>>> c. That's the triangle!
>>> https://s18.postimg.org/fq07txfih/11...a_triangle.gif
>>>
>>> NOTE: I haven't calculated yet the *distance* it would take for the
>>> centerline and tire to hit the wall, which could be prohibitive.
>>>
>>>> Hey, just noticed your link,
>>>> http://i.cubeupload.com/XocXQ9.jpg
>>>> has the sears level shown here,
>>>> http://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-in...P?sid=BVReview
>>>>
>>>
>>> That level is "accurate to 1/10th of a degree" (six minutes) so that must
>>> be the standard accuracy of the inclinometers in digital levels.
>>>
>>>> The Sears level does have a laser in it.
>>>> That will do what I suggest, rotate it 90* and point it forward to see
>>>> a spot on the wall. Find the centerline of your car and then it's a
>>>> simple trig problem.
>>>
>>> I think you hit upon a good idea which is to use the laser as the
>>> straight
>>> line for the vehicle centerline and for the tire angle, because where
>>> they
>>> intersect will be the triangle we need to measure.
>>> http://i.cubeupload.com/BzNqBY.gif
>>>
>>> The only problem may be the length of the Adjacent (centerline) mark.
>>>
>>>> The hard part, finding the centerline of your car.
>>>> I'm not sure this helps you though, I saw no evidence that you
>>>> understood how the trig solves turning the angle into inches.
>>>
>>> The trig is easy. soh cah toa.
>>> What's hard is figuring out what the triangles are for "total toe":
>>> https://s23.postimg.org/ajrtf269n/10...toe_angles.gif
>>>
>>> Most people here don't even understand the question because they keep
>>> saying it's a math problem. But the math is trivial. My confusion is
>>> how on
>>> earth do they specific total toe in degrees when total toe is simply the
>>> difference in toe from the rear to the front of the tire/wheel but toe
>>> angles are the *same* at the rear and front of the wheel!
>>>
>>> I'm sure the answer to that question is simple but everyone says it's a
>>> math trig issue but it's really a conceptual misunderstanding on my part.
>>>
>> I think you have a misunderstanding of total toe. It is simply Right
>> wheel toe plus Left wheel toe. I don't see why it needs to be measured,
>> if you have set left and right, total toe is just the addition of the
>> two angles.
>> See the explanation on page two, in the verbiage below the top left
>> figure. > http://www.hunter.com/Portals/0/Media/995-T-2.pdf
>>
>> All your draws use the centerline of your tire, which you can't
>> physically do. I would use the outside of the wheel, however, when you
>> get your adapter with laser built, the line will be further out from the
>> wheel edge.
>> Here's my vision. Feel from to make your own drawing, Paint wouldn't
>> modify yours the way I wanted.
>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/jap3k6l6z3...%20IN.jpg?dl=0
>>
>> Mikek
>>
>>
>>
> Rather disappointed I didn't get a response.
> Mikek
I think he's fighting with a cheap harbour freight tire changer now.
If it's not him it's his identical twin brother (perhaps by a
different mother) If not the same guy, their understanding of the
principals is about the same level of non-existance.

On 14/12/2016 12:22 PM, wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 17:16:49 -0600, amdx > wrote:
>
>> On 12/11/2016 10:09 AM, amdx wrote:
>>> On 12/10/2016 6:08 PM, John Harmon wrote:
>>>> amdx actually said:
>>>>
>>>>> If either of those devices had a laser pointer in them that point
>>>>> up, you could do a trig problem using the ceiling for camber, and on the
>>>>> front wall by rotating the device 90* for toe.
>>>>
>>>> I think you're one of the few people who are actually *thinking* about
>>>> what
>>>> they are saying on this thread, and for that, I very much appreciate your
>>>> sugestions.
>>>>
>>>> It seems, from what Andy Burns intimated, that the smart phones use
>>>> gravity-based accelerometers (with the compass) and not inclinometers,
>>>> so,
>>>> while they can be used for camber, the accuracy will be about plus or
>>>> minus
>>>> six minutes.
>>>>
>>>> However, to use them for toe (as I think it was tlvp who suggested that),
>>>> would be folly, I think, simply because toe is in a different plane where
>>>> gravity isn't different for various angles of toe.
>>>>
>>>> However, the laser beam is in the right plane for toe measurements!
>>>> So is the centerline of the car.
>>>>
>>>> So it should, in theory, be easy to do something like this:
>>>> a. Attach a laser to the car centerline and mark where it hits a wall.
>>>> b. Attach that laser to the wheel and mark where it intersects.
>>>> c. That's the triangle!
>>>> https://s18.postimg.org/fq07txfih/11...a_triangle.gif
>>>>
>>>> NOTE: I haven't calculated yet the *distance* it would take for the
>>>> centerline and tire to hit the wall, which could be prohibitive.
>>>>
>>>>> Hey, just noticed your link,
>>>>> http://i.cubeupload.com/XocXQ9.jpg
>>>>> has the sears level shown here,
>>>>> http://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-in...P?sid=BVReview
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That level is "accurate to 1/10th of a degree" (six minutes) so that must
>>>> be the standard accuracy of the inclinometers in digital levels.
>>>>
>>>>> The Sears level does have a laser in it.
>>>>> That will do what I suggest, rotate it 90* and point it forward to see
>>>>> a spot on the wall. Find the centerline of your car and then it's a
>>>>> simple trig problem.
>>>>
>>>> I think you hit upon a good idea which is to use the laser as the
>>>> straight
>>>> line for the vehicle centerline and for the tire angle, because where
>>>> they
>>>> intersect will be the triangle we need to measure.
>>>> http://i.cubeupload.com/BzNqBY.gif
>>>>
>>>> The only problem may be the length of the Adjacent (centerline) mark.
>>>>
>>>>> The hard part, finding the centerline of your car.
>>>>> I'm not sure this helps you though, I saw no evidence that you
>>>>> understood how the trig solves turning the angle into inches.
>>>>
>>>> The trig is easy. soh cah toa.
>>>> What's hard is figuring out what the triangles are for "total toe":
>>>> https://s23.postimg.org/ajrtf269n/10...toe_angles.gif
>>>>
>>>> Most people here don't even understand the question because they keep
>>>> saying it's a math problem. But the math is trivial. My confusion is
>>>> how on
>>>> earth do they specific total toe in degrees when total toe is simply the
>>>> difference in toe from the rear to the front of the tire/wheel but toe
>>>> angles are the *same* at the rear and front of the wheel!
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure the answer to that question is simple but everyone says it's a
>>>> math trig issue but it's really a conceptual misunderstanding on my part.
>>>>
>>> I think you have a misunderstanding of total toe. It is simply Right
>>> wheel toe plus Left wheel toe. I don't see why it needs to be measured,
>>> if you have set left and right, total toe is just the addition of the
>>> two angles.
>>> See the explanation on page two, in the verbiage below the top left
>>> figure. > http://www.hunter.com/Portals/0/Media/995-T-2.pdf
>>>
>>> All your draws use the centerline of your tire, which you can't
>>> physically do. I would use the outside of the wheel, however, when you
>>> get your adapter with laser built, the line will be further out from the
>>> wheel edge.
>>> Here's my vision. Feel from to make your own drawing, Paint wouldn't
>>> modify yours the way I wanted.
>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/jap3k6l6z3...%20IN.jpg?dl=0
>>>
>>> Mikek
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Rather disappointed I didn't get a response.
>> Mikek
> I think he's fighting with a cheap harbour freight tire changer now.
> If it's not him it's his identical twin brother (perhaps by a
> different mother) If not the same guy, their understanding of the
> principals is about the same level of non-existance.
>
Yes, it is an odd discussion and, because of that, one that I have been
loath to become involved in. FWIW, back when I was doing wheel
alignments, and lots of them, Toe was always designated as a 'linear
measurement', usually in fractions of an inch for most of the vehicles
that I worked on, and it was never an issue. The equipment I used, from
the very basic to the most sophisticated computer types, had both linear
and degree scales so the issue in this thread is really a non-runner.
What's more, there always seemed to be some sort of conversion chart on
hand, supplied by the equipment manufacturer, so there was never a need
to deal with trig functions. Failing that, these days there are internet
options of which I supplied the URL to one such in a past post.

--

Xeno

First they ignore you,
Then they ridicule you,
Then they fight you,
Then you win.

Mahatma Ghandi

Scott Dorsey actually said:

> Thirdly, if he didn't know any of these things, it should have taken him
> less than five minutes to find the leak with a can of starting fluid. There
> is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE for someone to bring out the smoke machine for that
> sort of leak unless they are trying really hard to find ways to bill their
> customers for something.

This is dead wrong.
Everyone knows that hack.
It doesn't work for the E39.
It might have worked for 1970's era cars, but not the E39.
There just isn't any change in the engine speed no matter where or how or
what you spray on the underside of the plenum.
The leak is just too slight and the difference in engine speed too slight
and the chance of getting the fuel from the plenum to the plugs too slight.

John Harmon > wrote:
>Scott Dorsey actually said:
>
>> Thirdly, if he didn't know any of these things, it should have taken him
>> less than five minutes to find the leak with a can of starting fluid. There
>> is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE for someone to bring out the smoke machine for that
>> sort of leak unless they are trying really hard to find ways to bill their
>> customers for something.
>
>This is dead wrong.
>Everyone knows that hack.
>It doesn't work for the E39.
>It might have worked for 1970's era cars, but not the E39.
>There just isn't any change in the engine speed no matter where or how or
>what you spray on the underside of the plenum.
>The leak is just too slight and the difference in engine speed too slight
>and the chance of getting the fuel from the plenum to the plugs too slight.

If you're just spraying and not poking and prodding that's likely true, and
a lot of less severe hose cracks won't get found that way unless you are
pulling and stretching on the hose as you're hitting it.

But the plenum is easy, you just squeeze the body and shake it back and
forth. Of course, likely you won't even need the spray because it'll
come apart in your hands.

You are definitely right that the E39 is a lot more of a pain to find leaks
in than the E30 and earlier vintage cars and more sensitive to smaller leaks.
Sometimes the smoke machine IS needed. But sometimes you should be able to
look at the plenum and see cracks and just replace the damn thing whether or
not it's leaking, because you know it's going to start leaking soon.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."