Buying your tools at sears?

On 12/19/2012 08:42 AM, Steve W. wrote:
> bob urz wrote:
>> On 12/19/2012 4:41 AM, AD wrote:
>>> [farting part snipped]
>>>> Sears tools seem to me not up to what they used to be. When i have
>>>> had ratchets replaced under the lifetime warranty, the replacements
>>>> did not seem as robust to me. Not junk, but not as well made.
>>> that's "make just good enough for satisfying the customer" part
>>>
>>>> I was just recently looking at the Maxx Access tools and thought they
>>>> might be nice to have. The good set is $80 or so. Reading the article
>>> how much was bionic set going for before sears started to cut corners?
>>>
>> The max access are relatively new. They were on sale for $69 or so
>> recently.
>>
>> I also noticed sears started selling the spline looking universal
>> wrenches and such. I wonder if they ripped that off also?
>
> The spline tools are nothing more than a misuse of industrial spline
> drive that has been around for years (not a big seller unless you do
> very specific work). Sears (and others) are telling folks how the
> wrenches can be used for all the different fasteners. The problem is
> that while they can be used that way they are not intended to be. The
> splines have a very nasty habit of stripping the corners off fasteners
> other than spline drive parts. They are also much weaker than a 6 or 12
> point wrench simply by virtue of the lack of metal on the flats.
>
> Sears has used just about every tool maker at one point or another. With
> many tool makers now having plants worldwide it is harder to tell where
> the tool is actually made. In reality IF they use a good alloy and
> quality control it doesn't matter much.

in theory, with a little bit of chance taking, but there's no guessing
involved with harbor freight. and very few made in usa tools, while
finish may not be fab, will break and injure you.


> The trend of "It's China made so
> it's junk" is not really true. I have seen tools made in the US that are
> worse junk than ones made in other countries.

that's true enough. i recently bought a taiwanese ratchet that i think
is superior to my "dual 80" snap-on of unknown origin. but that might
not be a fair comparison - snap-on seem to have really lost the plot.
quality is down, they're not prepared to fly the flag that justifies the
price, and they've been screwing their distributors - they've lost
franchisees all over the bay area.


--
fact check required

jim beam wrote:
> On 12/19/2012 08:42 AM, Steve W. wrote:
>> bob urz wrote:
>>> On 12/19/2012 4:41 AM, AD wrote:
>>>> [farting part snipped]
>>>>> Sears tools seem to me not up to what they used to be. When i have
>>>>> had ratchets replaced under the lifetime warranty, the replacements
>>>>> did not seem as robust to me. Not junk, but not as well made.
>>>> that's "make just good enough for satisfying the customer" part
>>>>
>>>>> I was just recently looking at the Maxx Access tools and thought they
>>>>> might be nice to have. The good set is $80 or so. Reading the article
>>>> how much was bionic set going for before sears started to cut corners?
>>>>
>>> The max access are relatively new. They were on sale for $69 or so
>>> recently.
>>>
>>> I also noticed sears started selling the spline looking universal
>>> wrenches and such. I wonder if they ripped that off also?
>> The spline tools are nothing more than a misuse of industrial spline
>> drive that has been around for years (not a big seller unless you do
>> very specific work). Sears (and others) are telling folks how the
>> wrenches can be used for all the different fasteners. The problem is
>> that while they can be used that way they are not intended to be. The
>> splines have a very nasty habit of stripping the corners off fasteners
>> other than spline drive parts. They are also much weaker than a 6 or 12
>> point wrench simply by virtue of the lack of metal on the flats.
>>
>> Sears has used just about every tool maker at one point or another. With
>> many tool makers now having plants worldwide it is harder to tell where
>> the tool is actually made. In reality IF they use a good alloy and
>> quality control it doesn't matter much.
>
> in theory, with a little bit of chance taking, but there's no guessing
> involved with harbor freight. and very few made in usa tools, while
> finish may not be fab, will break and injure you.


I break "made in USA" tools all the time. I have probably 30 Snap-On and
Mac tools waiting for replacement. On the flip side I have a junk yard
set from HF that I grabbed simply because I didn't want to lose stuff
while pulling parts. In 4 years I have managed to break one combination
wrench and bent a ratchet. Both were replaced with no problem.

>
>
>> The trend of "It's China made so
>> it's junk" is not really true. I have seen tools made in the US that are
>> worse junk than ones made in other countries.
>
> that's true enough. i recently bought a taiwanese ratchet that i think
> is superior to my "dual 80" snap-on of unknown origin. but that might
> not be a fair comparison - snap-on seem to have really lost the plot.
> quality is down, they're not prepared to fly the flag that justifies the
> price, and they've been screwing their distributors - they've lost
> franchisees all over the bay area.
>

Same here. The tool and storage guys are both gone from my area. Not
from lack of spending on my part....

--
Steve W.

Gene wrote:
> "jim beam" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 12/19/2012 12:22 AM, bob urz wrote:
>>> On 12/18/2012 11:03 PM, Brent wrote:
>>>> Six years is a solid product life these days. Those who want to make
>>>> their way innovating need to turn their products faster than that. It's
>>>> just the way it is.
>>> When talking about consumer electronics, especially cell phones, 3
>>> months is a long time. Apple and Samsung have been duking it out for a
>>> few years now globally in the courts. and its still going on.
>>> You could patent how to take a **** these days and sue someone
>>> for the audacity of a bowel movement.
>>>
>>> Sears tools seem to me not up to what they used to be. When i have
>>> had ratchets replaced under the lifetime warranty, the replacements
>>> did not seem as robust to me. Not junk, but not as well made.
>>>
>>> I was just recently looking at the Maxx Access tools and thought they
>>> might be nice to have. The good set is $80 or so. Reading the article
>>> made me think twice about it. I ended up getting a more basic set
>>> at harbor freight for $16 after coupon and sale.
>> <lecture_mode>
>> cheap chinese tools are cheap for a reason. at best, their poor
>> dimensional tolerances and weak metal will merely damage what you're
>> working on. but there's also a good chance they'll break and damage you
>> as well.
>>
>> always buy the best tools you can - sears "made in usa" aren't the best
>> out there, but they're adequate, safe, and reasonable value for money,
>> especially for occasional users. especially especially when bought on
>> sale.
>> </lecture_mode>
>
> And especially when bought via the catalog prices and in sets.
>
>


FYI for folks who are buying tools/storage through Sears. Join the
Craftsman Club. It's FREE and on some stuff it drops a BIG chunk off the
price. A $500.00 dollar top box was just on club special for $280.00

--
Steve W.

"Steve W." > wrote in message
...
> Gene wrote:
>> "jim beam" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On 12/19/2012 12:22 AM, bob urz wrote:
>>>> On 12/18/2012 11:03 PM, Brent wrote:
>>>>> Six years is a solid product life these days. Those who want to make
>>>>> their way innovating need to turn their products faster than that.
>>>>> It's
>>>>> just the way it is.
>>>> When talking about consumer electronics, especially cell phones, 3
>>>> months is a long time. Apple and Samsung have been duking it out for a
>>>> few years now globally in the courts. and its still going on.
>>>> You could patent how to take a **** these days and sue someone
>>>> for the audacity of a bowel movement.
>>>>
>>>> Sears tools seem to me not up to what they used to be. When i have
>>>> had ratchets replaced under the lifetime warranty, the replacements
>>>> did not seem as robust to me. Not junk, but not as well made.
>>>>
>>>> I was just recently looking at the Maxx Access tools and thought they
>>>> might be nice to have. The good set is $80 or so. Reading the article
>>>> made me think twice about it. I ended up getting a more basic set
>>>> at harbor freight for $16 after coupon and sale.
>>> <lecture_mode>
>>> cheap chinese tools are cheap for a reason. at best, their poor
>>> dimensional tolerances and weak metal will merely damage what you're
>>> working on. but there's also a good chance they'll break and damage you
>>> as well.
>>>
>>> always buy the best tools you can - sears "made in usa" aren't the best
>>> out there, but they're adequate, safe, and reasonable value for money,
>>> especially for occasional users. especially especially when bought on
>>> sale.
>>> </lecture_mode>
>>
>> And especially when bought via the catalog prices and in sets.
> FYI for folks who are buying tools/storage through Sears. Join the
> Craftsman Club. It's FREE and on some stuff it drops a BIG chunk off the
> price. A $500.00 dollar top box was just on club special for $280.00
>
> --
> Steve W.

Very good point, forgot about including that gem in my
response. Being an elderly engineer and out of the daily
wrenching business for quite a while now, I don't do
much of such work anymore and no longer regularly
make large tool purchases, but I've heard of the CC
and it looks like an even better deal than catalogs alone.

Gene wrote:
>>> And especially when bought via the catalog prices and in sets.
>> FYI for folks who are buying tools/storage through Sears. Join the
>> Craftsman Club. It's FREE and on some stuff it drops a BIG chunk off the
>> price. A $500.00 dollar top box was just on club special for $280.00
>>
>> --
>> Steve W.
>
> Very good point, forgot about including that gem in my
> response. Being an elderly engineer and out of the daily
> wrenching business for quite a while now, I don't do
> much of such work anymore and no longer regularly
> make large tool purchases, but I've heard of the CC
> and it looks like an even better deal than catalogs alone.
>
>


I was looking for a decent chest for the home shop and got one of the
40" units last month.
Not built as rugged as the Master series I have but good enough for
normal home use.
Online shows the regular price as 529.99 With a 423.99 sale price. CC
members could get it last month for 265.00


--
Steve W.

On 12/19/2012 4:08 PM, Steve W. wrote:
> Gene wrote:
>>>> And especially when bought via the catalog prices and in
>>>> sets.
>>> FYI for folks who are buying tools/storage through Sears.
>>> Join the
>>> Craftsman Club. It's FREE and on some stuff it drops a
>>> BIG chunk off the
>>> price. A $500.00 dollar top box was just on club special
>>> for $280.00
>>>
>>> --
>>> Steve W.
>>
>> Very good point, forgot about including that gem in my
>> response. Being an elderly engineer and out of the daily
>> wrenching business for quite a while now, I don't do
>> much of such work anymore and no longer regularly
>> make large tool purchases, but I've heard of the CC
>> and it looks like an even better deal than catalogs alone.
>>
>
>
> I was looking for a decent chest for the home shop and got
> one of the 40" units last month.
> Not built as rugged as the Master series I have but good
> enough for normal home use.
> Online shows the regular price as 529.99 With a 423.99 sale
> price. CC members could get it last month for 265.00
>
>

We have some Craftsman & MATCO units here, but we prefer
Kennedy. Many choices, everyone has an opinion and the
applications/ abuse level are often different too.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

AMuzi wrote:
> On 12/19/2012 4:08 PM, Steve W. wrote:
>> Gene wrote:
>>>>> And especially when bought via the catalog prices and in
>>>>> sets.
>>>> FYI for folks who are buying tools/storage through Sears.
>>>> Join the
>>>> Craftsman Club. It's FREE and on some stuff it drops a
>>>> BIG chunk off the
>>>> price. A $500.00 dollar top box was just on club special
>>>> for $280.00
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Steve W.
>>> Very good point, forgot about including that gem in my
>>> response. Being an elderly engineer and out of the daily
>>> wrenching business for quite a while now, I don't do
>>> much of such work anymore and no longer regularly
>>> make large tool purchases, but I've heard of the CC
>>> and it looks like an even better deal than catalogs alone.
>>>
>>
>> I was looking for a decent chest for the home shop and got
>> one of the 40" units last month.
>> Not built as rugged as the Master series I have but good
>> enough for normal home use.
>> Online shows the regular price as 529.99 With a 423.99 sale
>> price. CC members could get it last month for 265.00
>>
>>
>
> We have some Craftsman & MATCO units here, but we prefer
> Kennedy. Many choices, everyone has an opinion and the
> applications/ abuse level are often different too.



Kennedy makes a good box. At one time they made some of Sears units.
Waterloo makes the Craftsman and Husky units these days.
http://www.waterlooindustries.com/

I have a small Kennedy, a newer Lista and two Master series from Snap-On.


--
Steve W.

On 12/19/2012 11:07 AM, Steve W. wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>> On 12/19/2012 08:42 AM, Steve W. wrote:
>>> bob urz wrote:
>>>> On 12/19/2012 4:41 AM, AD wrote:
>>>>> [farting part snipped]
>>>>>> Sears tools seem to me not up to what they used to be. When i have
>>>>>> had ratchets replaced under the lifetime warranty, the replacements
>>>>>> did not seem as robust to me. Not junk, but not as well made.
>>>>> that's "make just good enough for satisfying the customer" part
>>>>>
>>>>>> I was just recently looking at the Maxx Access tools and thought they
>>>>>> might be nice to have. The good set is $80 or so. Reading the article
>>>>> how much was bionic set going for before sears started to cut corners?
>>>>>
>>>> The max access are relatively new. They were on sale for $69 or so
>>>> recently.
>>>>
>>>> I also noticed sears started selling the spline looking universal
>>>> wrenches and such. I wonder if they ripped that off also?
>>> The spline tools are nothing more than a misuse of industrial spline
>>> drive that has been around for years (not a big seller unless you do
>>> very specific work). Sears (and others) are telling folks how the
>>> wrenches can be used for all the different fasteners. The problem is
>>> that while they can be used that way they are not intended to be. The
>>> splines have a very nasty habit of stripping the corners off fasteners
>>> other than spline drive parts. They are also much weaker than a 6 or 12
>>> point wrench simply by virtue of the lack of metal on the flats.
>>>
>>> Sears has used just about every tool maker at one point or another. With
>>> many tool makers now having plants worldwide it is harder to tell where
>>> the tool is actually made. In reality IF they use a good alloy and
>>> quality control it doesn't matter much.
>>
>> in theory, with a little bit of chance taking, but there's no guessing
>> involved with harbor freight. and very few made in usa tools, while
>> finish may not be fab, will break and injure you.
>
>
> I break "made in USA" tools all the time. I have probably 30 Snap-On and
> Mac tools waiting for replacement.

dude, what on earth are you doing??? i've worn stuff out, and once
split a kd socket, but broken? the only stuff i've broken is stuff i've
abused like a 3/4" > 1/2" adapter marked [~] "max 600Nm" and that was
when i'd loaded to about 900. it certainly didn't break within its
design spec. and so i'm not asking for replacement.


> On the flip side I have a junk yard
> set from HF that I grabbed simply because I didn't want to lose stuff
> while pulling parts.

valid point. maybe i should do that. i had a snap-on socket rail go
walkies at a junk yard not so long ago and i hate having to replace for
reasons like that. but the problem is, h.f. are a crap fit, of highly
questionable reliability and you need reliable tools at a junkyard where
stuff is usually either neglected or abused.


> In 4 years I have managed to break one combination
> wrench and bent a ratchet. Both were replaced with no problem.
>
>>
>>
>>> The trend of "It's China made so
>>> it's junk" is not really true. I have seen tools made in the US that are
>>> worse junk than ones made in other countries.
>>
>> that's true enough. i recently bought a taiwanese ratchet that i think
>> is superior to my "dual 80" snap-on of unknown origin. but that might
>> not be a fair comparison - snap-on seem to have really lost the plot.
>> quality is down, they're not prepared to fly the flag that justifies
>> the price, and they've been screwing their distributors - they've lost
>> franchisees all over the bay area.
>>
>
> Same here. The tool and storage guys are both gone from my area. Not
> from lack of spending on my part....

going back to your 30 replacements, apparently snap-on have recently
started to insist franchisees replace breakages from their own stock and
wait for factory replacement when they can be bothered to get around to
it, thus costing franchisees a bunch of up-front money. with pricing
and margins being what they are, the franchisees just had to quit - they
were being starved.


--
fact check required

On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 09:24:47 -0800, jim beam > wrote:

>that's true enough. i recently bought a taiwanese ratchet that i think
>is superior to my "dual 80" snap-on of unknown origin. but that might
>not be a fair comparison - snap-on seem to have really lost the plot.
>quality is down, they're not prepared to fly the flag that justifies the
>price, and they've been screwing their distributors - they've lost
>franchisees all over the bay area.

My understanding is that Snap On has been getting its tools from China
for several years now. I know guys still wrenching in dealerships that
switched to Harbor Freight because they're so cheap, who cares if they
break? And they know stuff breaks - they're not worried about getting
hurt. They're tools are good enough for most work.

On 12/19/2012 8:37 PM, Bill Vanek wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 09:24:47 -0800, Jim beam > wrote:
>
>> that's true enough. i recently bought a Taiwanese ratchet that i think
>> is superior to my "dual 80" snap-on of unknown origin. but that might
>> not be a fair comparison - snap-on seem to have really lost the plot.
>> quality is down, they're not prepared to fly the flag that justifies the
>> price, and they've been screwing their distributors - they've lost
>> franchisees all over the bay area.
>
> My understanding is that Snap On has been getting its tools from China
> for several years now. I know guys still wrenching in dealerships that
> switched to Harbor Freight because they're so cheap, who cares if they
> break? And they know stuff breaks - they're not worried about getting
> hurt. They're tools are good enough for most work.
>
Harbor freight has a place in the tool food chain. You have to be
realistic of your expectations, and know what to buy and what to
stay away from.

There sockets and such are generally good. If your not stupid
and don't abuse them, they will last indefinitely. I would not
recommend harbor for a professional mechanic that uses them
every day. But for a backyard wrench, they are just fine
for the most part. I got a 20+" breaker bar for the bone yard
runs for $9.95. Cannot beat that. It got me some pinch bolts
off that i would not have otherwise without issue.

There metric wrench sets have served me well.

Got a 1/2" impact socket set that goes up to 30MM for $19.95

Electric and battery tools are more of a question mark.
I got a 4.5" angle grinder at black Friday a few years
back for $4.95. It sounded like a bucket of ball bearing
slapping around running, but it still works with the limited
use its had.

I had a crank type lug nut tool that did break, but it was the
exception rather than the rule.

There battery drills and such are cheap, and i don't have much faith
in that end of there line

When they have a big sale, you can buy halogen shop light 500W bulbs
for $1. Cannot beat that. They might not last as long, but you can
buy a lot of them for what a normal bulb cost. And a normal bulb
will die just as easy if you drop the light.

Harbor is a carnival for the cheapskate tool junkie.

Yes, i still buy some craftsman on occasion, but at a 4 or 5 to one
ratio of my harbor freight buys.