Buying your tools at sears?

On 12/23/2012 09:51 AM, jim beam wrote:
> On 12/23/2012 09:23 AM, bob urz wrote:
>> On 12/23/2012 8:56 AM, Steve W. wrote:
>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>> On 12/22/2012 03:25 PM, Steve W. wrote:
>>>>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Not surprising. The early (pre 2003 Kobalt tools were made by J.H.
>>>>> Williams Corporation, Who are now owned by Snap-On.
>>>>> The 2003 and up tools are made by the Danaher group, who also make
>>>>> Matco
>>>>> and Armstrong tools (Kobalt is actually house branded Armstrong for
>>>>> the
>>>>> most part)
>>>>
>>>> are they not made in china now? all the "husky" stuff sold by home
>>>> despot used to be made in usa, but is now china. [for the same price,
>>>> naturally.]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Taiwan mainly. Some of the pliers are mainland China
>>>
>>>
>> In Nebraska, the small town of Dewitt used to pride itself as the home
>> of "Vice Grip Pliers". Well, a corporate sale, bean counters run amok,
>> and some stupidity to go and that small town that has made tools
>> for over 1/2 century + no longer makes anything and has a big empty
>> former factory. They used to have a big town banner "home of Vice grip".
>> Don't know if they ever took that down or not. They should have replaced
>> the banner with "former proud town of what the USA used to be"
>>
>> If you got some older vintage vice grips, hang on to them.
>>
>> So if "made in the ole USA" means ANYTHING to tool buyers,
>> it sure did not seem to make any difference to those at Vice grip.
>>
>> http://www.livinghistoryfarm.org/far...chines_12.html
>>
>> bob
>
> yup, vise-grips are one of my favorite "love to hate"'s. they used to be
> the perfect example of how you can DOMESTICALLY produce a world class
> product at prices that people will gladly pay.
>
> but that wasn't enough. newell rubbermaid sold vise-grip out to china,
> among many of their other brands, and have been ruthless and systematic
> about it.

another example of iconic sell-out is dixon ticonderoga. countless
generations of american kids used them at school. countless office
workers still use them.

but management sold out and any pencil still bearing that name is made
in china. however, unlike newell rubbermaid who didn't just sell the
vise-grip name but the machinery too, the pencil plant here in the u.s.
was sold to local management and a company called megabrands. so you
can still buy american pencils of the quality that d.t. used to be, but
with a different name - usa gold is one, but there are others.

the supreme irony is that these domestics are now cheaper than the
chinese crap with the brand name! that pretty much says it all imo.


>
> i even wrote the company president expressing my disgust at their lack
> of patriotism because ultimately, our military security depends on our
> ability to manufacture if we are to be able to sustain and prevail in
> conflict, but i received no response.
>
> none of them care or can think past their noses. they're in position for
> a few years, they cash out, and then they're off. i wonder where they go
> when they're done? i hope they're not staying here and expecting the
> rest of the country to protect them if there's a problem.
>
>


--
fact check required

On 2012-12-23, jim beam > wrote:
> On 12/22/2012 11:20 PM, Brent wrote:
>> On 2012-12-23, jim > wrote:
>>> On 12/22/2012 03:25 PM, Steve W. wrote:
>>>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>>> On 12/18/2012 09:45 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/18/2012 01:56 PM, bob urz wrote:
>>>>>>> http://www.impomag.com/blogs/2012/12...ing-innovation
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> bob
>>>>>> and yet, you can still buy tools at sears that clearly have "made in
>>>>>> usa" stamped right into the metal. it's next to impossible to do that
>>>>>> at home depot or lowes. "made in usa" is notably ABSENT from my latest
>>>>>> snap-on ratchet too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Friend of mine got a basic Kobalt (Lowe's) "mechanic's set" for xmas
>>>>> last year...
>>>>>
>>>>> I obviously can't judge the quality of the metal/heat treatment
>>>>> unless/until something fails... but I will say this, the *feel* of the
>>>>> ratchets and wrenches is closer to my old S-K stuff than it is to any
>>>>> of the Craftsman tools in my collection save for one polished-handle
>>>>> "professional" ratchet that I got when my local Sears was out of the
>>>>> standard ones to exchange (and they apparently stopped selling the
>>>>> ratchet rebuild kits years ago)
>>>>>
>>>>> I liked them enough that when I needed a set of large 6-point metric
>>>>> sockets and I saw a set on sale at Lowe's packaged with a 1/2" ratchet
>>>>> I bought them, I figure an extra ratchet is a good thing to have, and
>>>>> the cost was less than just the sockets at Sears. I find myself using
>>>>> that ratchet more than the Craftsman one because it feels better. (the
>>>>> only S-K sockets/ratchets I have are old, and 3/8" drive SAE. I also
>>>>> managed to pick up a set of S-K metric combo wrenches, but damn if it
>>>>> isn't missing the 13mm... almost want to buy one just so that one
>>>>> Craftsman wrench doesn't **** me off.)
>>>>>
>>>>> nate
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not surprising. The early (pre 2003 Kobalt tools were made by J.H.
>>>> Williams Corporation, Who are now owned by Snap-On.
>>>> The 2003 and up tools are made by the Danaher group, who also make Matco
>>>> and Armstrong tools (Kobalt is actually house branded Armstrong for the
>>>> most part)
>>>
>>> are they not made in china now? all the "husky" stuff sold by home
>>> despot used to be made in usa, but is now china. [for the same price,
>>> naturally.]
>>
>> In numerical dollars. In constant dollars it's cheaper.
>> The goal is to hold price point in numerical dollars as the dollar
>> declines in real value.
>
> no it's not. it's to cut input expense to a fraction of that of
> domestic production [the chinese often sell at /below/ cost], keep
> selling at the price of the domestically produced product, and roll
> around in the excess profits laughing your organs off.

No. Big box retailers want to hold (or drop) a price point in numerical
dollars. Going to these stores with a price increase is the last thing
you want to do. As a manufacturer you not only have to please the end
user but the customer that actually buys from you, the distributor
and the retailer. In the case of a big box the distributor and
retailer are often the same thing. If you can't keep the design ahead of
inflation then labor has to be cut. If you have to manufacture in China
to meet their expectations, that's what you do.

Products I designed and/or developed over my career have been sold in a
wide variety of retail environments including big box stores. I have
never been to meeting where management wanted to squeeze more profit out
by going to China. Not one. Pleasing a big retailer by maintaining the
retail price in numerical dollars, yep. Redesign parts? Yep. Work with
new and existing vendors to bring part costs down? Yep. Sometimes a
manufacturer gets some margin out of it for awhile. But it's a race
against inflation.

If you want to know who benefits, see who benefits from inflation. Who
gets the new money first. They got the extra. Not the manufacturer, not
the retailer.

> well, we'll /all/ be rolling around in poverty and servitude before
> long. you can't run an economy on money printing, selling each other
> mortgages and madoff schemes for ever.

The chinese people are having their labor stolen from them as are we. If
you want someone to blame start with the privately owned fed and work
up.

On 2012-12-24, Brent > wrote:
> On 2012-12-23, jim beam > wrote:

>>> In numerical dollars. In constant dollars it's cheaper.
>>> The goal is to hold price point in numerical dollars as the dollar
>>> declines in real value.
>>
>> no it's not. it's to cut input expense to a fraction of that of
>> domestic production [the chinese often sell at /below/ cost], keep
>> selling at the price of the domestically produced product, and roll
>> around in the excess profits laughing your organs off.
>
> No. Big box retailers want to hold (or drop) a price point in numerical
> dollars. Going to these stores with a price increase is the last thing
> you want to do. As a manufacturer you not only have to please the end
> user but the customer that actually buys from you, the distributor
> and the retailer. In the case of a big box the distributor and
> retailer are often the same thing. If you can't keep the design ahead of
> inflation then labor has to be cut. If you have to manufacture in China
> to meet their expectations, that's what you do.
>
> Products I designed and/or developed over my career have been sold in a
> wide variety of retail environments including big box stores. I have
> never been to meeting where management wanted to squeeze more profit out
> by going to China. Not one. Pleasing a big retailer by maintaining the
> retail price in numerical dollars, yep. Redesign parts? Yep. Work with
> new and existing vendors to bring part costs down? Yep. Sometimes a
> manufacturer gets some margin out of it for awhile. But it's a race
> against inflation.

This of course is if the company stays in the same hands.... once the
wall streeters and take over folks get involved all bets are off. They
will destroy a company for a quick buck any way they can...

On 12/23/2012 07:47 PM, Gene wrote:
> "Nate Nagel" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 12/18/2012 09:45 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>> On 12/18/2012 01:56 PM, bob urz wrote:
>>>> http://www.impomag.com/blogs/2012/12...ing-innovation
>>>>
>>>> bob
>>>
>>> and yet, you can still buy tools at sears that clearly have "made in
>>> usa" stamped right into the metal. it's next to impossible to do that
>>> at home depot or lowes. "made in usa" is notably ABSENT from my latest
>>> snap-on ratchet too.
>>
>> Friend of mine got a basic Kobalt (Lowe's) "mechanic's set" for xmas last
>> year...
>>
>> I obviously can't judge the quality of the metal/heat treatment
>> unless/until something fails... but I will say this, the *feel* of the
>> ratchets and wrenches is closer to my old S-K stuff than it is to any of
>> the Craftsman tools in my collection save for one polished-handle
>> "professional" ratchet that I got when my local Sears was out of the
>> standard ones to exchange (and they apparently stopped selling the ratchet
>> rebuild kits years ago)
>>
>> I liked them enough that when I needed a set of large 6-point metric
>> sockets and I saw a set on sale at Lowe's packaged with a 1/2" ratchet I
>> bought them, I figure an extra ratchet is a good thing to have, and the
>> cost was less than just the sockets at Sears. I find myself using that
>> ratchet more than the Craftsman one because it feels better. (the only
>> S-K sockets/ratchets I have are old, and 3/8" drive SAE. I also managed
>> to pick up a set of S-K metric combo wrenches, but damn if it isn't
>> missing the 13mm... almost want to buy one just so that one Craftsman
>> wrench doesn't **** me off.)
>>
>> nate
>
> I could see a 16 or an 18, but a 13? That's one of the most
> utilized, commonly found sizes. Perhaps they figured if you
> have even one size already, it would be the obvious choice.
>

A friend found the set in a pawn shop, that's why the 13 is missing...
I'm certain that it originally came with one, because, as you say, it
ties for the 10mm for the one that you use the most.

I'd love to have a complete set of brand-new pro quality tools, but
sadly, with the amount of tools needed/wanted, buying them all new at
retail pricing doesn't seem like a good bet for a DIYer.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 12/24/2012 06:18 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
> On 12/23/2012 07:47 PM, Gene wrote:
>> "Nate Nagel" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On 12/18/2012 09:45 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>>> On 12/18/2012 01:56 PM, bob urz wrote:
>>>>> http://www.impomag.com/blogs/2012/12...ing-innovation
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> bob
>>>>
>>>> and yet, you can still buy tools at sears that clearly have "made in
>>>> usa" stamped right into the metal. it's next to impossible to do that
>>>> at home depot or lowes. "made in usa" is notably ABSENT from my latest
>>>> snap-on ratchet too.
>>>
>>> Friend of mine got a basic Kobalt (Lowe's) "mechanic's set" for xmas
>>> last
>>> year...
>>>
>>> I obviously can't judge the quality of the metal/heat treatment
>>> unless/until something fails... but I will say this, the *feel* of the
>>> ratchets and wrenches is closer to my old S-K stuff than it is to any of
>>> the Craftsman tools in my collection save for one polished-handle
>>> "professional" ratchet that I got when my local Sears was out of the
>>> standard ones to exchange (and they apparently stopped selling the
>>> ratchet
>>> rebuild kits years ago)
>>>
>>> I liked them enough that when I needed a set of large 6-point metric
>>> sockets and I saw a set on sale at Lowe's packaged with a 1/2" ratchet I
>>> bought them, I figure an extra ratchet is a good thing to have, and the
>>> cost was less than just the sockets at Sears. I find myself using that
>>> ratchet more than the Craftsman one because it feels better. (the only
>>> S-K sockets/ratchets I have are old, and 3/8" drive SAE. I also managed
>>> to pick up a set of S-K metric combo wrenches, but damn if it isn't
>>> missing the 13mm... almost want to buy one just so that one Craftsman
>>> wrench doesn't **** me off.)
>>>
>>> nate
>>
>> I could see a 16 or an 18, but a 13? That's one of the most
>> utilized, commonly found sizes. Perhaps they figured if you
>> have even one size already, it would be the obvious choice.
>>
>
> A friend found the set in a pawn shop, that's why the 13 is missing...
> I'm certain that it originally came with one, because, as you say, it
> ties for the 10mm for the one that you use the most.
>
> I'd love to have a complete set of brand-new pro quality tools, but
> sadly, with the amount of tools needed/wanted, buying them all new at
> retail pricing doesn't seem like a good bet for a DIYer.
>
> nate
>
>

the empty vessel makes the loudest sound. "i've got no money for tools"
he bleats, and yet he'll spend thousands and thousands on multiple rot
boxes that he can't give away. ridiculous.


--
fact check required

Nate Nagel > wrote:
>
>Friend of mine got a basic Kobalt (Lowe's) "mechanic's set" for xmas
>last year...

Kobalt seems to be made by whoever Lowe's contracts with this week. Some
of them seem to be decent, some of them seem to be awful. Some of it,
you may never know until it breaks.

My tendency if I buy from folks like that is to buy the stuff made in Taiwan
and not the stuff made in China, but that's really no guarantee of anything
although it might improve your chances marginally.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Brent > wrote:
>
>IBM was never a big player except for businesses which is partly* why
>it's chosen framework took over, but the mass market was created by
>apple, atari, and commodore. *mostly because it could be copied.

Back in the sixties, IBM was the computer industry, along with the Seven
Dwarves. It's strange too, since IBM was never a hardware company, they
were a services company that sold hardware as part of their services.

Lots of companies made IBM-compatible machines.... National Advanced Systems
and Amdahl were probably the most popular. But, they never really made
much inroads into IBM's customer base, because people were buying IBM
service and getting IBM hardware in the bargain rather than the other
way around.

But IBM has always, always stayed away from commodity systems. It's
a nasty business there, and these days the microcomputer industry revolves
around cheap commodity hardware.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 12/26/2012 9:38 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Brent > wrote:
>>
>> IBM was never a big player except for businesses which is partly* why
>> it's chosen framework took over, but the mass market was created by
>> apple, Atari, and commodore. *mostly because it could be copied.
>
> Back in the sixties, IBM was the computer industry, along with the Seven
> Dwarves. It's strange too, since IBM was never a hardware company, they
> were a services company that sold hardware as part of their services.
>
> Lots of companies made IBM-compatible machines.... National Advanced Systems
> and Amdahl were probably the most popular. But, they never really made
> much inroads into IBM's customer base, because people were buying IBM
> service and getting IBM hardware in the bargain rather than the other
> way around.
>
> But IBM has always, always stayed away from commodity systems. It's
> a nasty business there, and these days the microcomputer industry revolves
> around cheap commodity hardware.
> --scott
>

By accident or design, IBM created the business PC industry. Along with
a Zit faced kid named Bill Gates (who ripped off dos).

Before the PC, business where faced with room sized computers with large
support staffs to be computerized. The IBM PC changed all that.
Now, small business could afford to own a computer, and they could buy
off the shelf software to run it and not have to pay a staff of
programmers. Sure, there was a bunch of computers of that era, but
for the most part they were hobbyist units that never gained mass
traction. IBM changed the mindset that business did not have to run
on big iron anymore. THEN SMART company's such as Novel, lotus, Ashton
Tate jumped into the fray and made the masses turn to PC computing.

IBM tried to control the clone market, but the Genie was already out
of the bottle. The micro channel machines were not the blow out
success the early machines were

As far as the hobbyist; Apple, Atari, Commodore, they were all hobbyist
computers that were more curiosities than functional business computers.
They were game machines rather than business machines.
There were machines such as the S100 based systems running CPM.
They were expandable and had multiple vendors, but they were too
complex for most naive business owners with no or little computer
experience. One of my first machines was a CSS S100 Z80 based
system. Took me two years or so to collect the parts to put it
together. Finally got that dual Shugart 801 external floppy
drive/enclosure to finish the job. Parts were a lot more expensive
back then. And you had to be rich to afford a measly 5M hard drive.
Had a ADM 3 terminal and a ASR 33 surplus TTY too.


Funny thing was IBM tried to get into the home market with the PC Jr.
Remember the Charlie Chaplin adds? Business may have said yes to
IBM, but the home market was NOT impressed. Sorry Charlie.
Big blue was blue there.

My home machine now is a IBM M50 P4 3Ghz. Its kind of like driving
my old Taurus. Its a little ugly, but its starts every day and gets
me to where i need to go. I thin this was one of the latter IBM branded
machines before IBM sold out to Lenovo. Like my Taurus, i will drive it
until it dies.

The computer industry is being turned on its head again by apple, then
Google and the hoard of android machines. It might be a good time to
sell MS stock before its hits the cellar. The days of MS controlling
the computer market and charging premium prices for commodity goods
are coming to an end. If you are a business owner with a network
running MS, MS won't stop until it gets every penny from your
pocket for the privilege of getting raped by them. Even there new
tablet is a rip. First, few are impressed by it for what it costs.
It comes with applications. But if you use the apps you BOUGHT with
the computer in a business environment, you have to pay them again.
It like buying a car, then having to pay a lease payment on top
of that to boot.

On 12/24/2012 11:40 AM, jim beam wrote:
> On 12/24/2012 06:18 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>> On 12/23/2012 07:47 PM, Gene wrote:
>>> "Nate Nagel" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> On 12/18/2012 09:45 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>>>> On 12/18/2012 01:56 PM, bob urz wrote:
>>>>>> http://www.impomag.com/blogs/2012/12...ing-innovation
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> bob
>>>>>
>>>>> and yet, you can still buy tools at sears that clearly have "made in
>>>>> usa" stamped right into the metal. it's next to impossible to do that
>>>>> at home depot or lowes. "made in usa" is notably ABSENT from my latest
>>>>> snap-on ratchet too.
>>>>
>>>> Friend of mine got a basic Kobalt (Lowe's) "mechanic's set" for xmas
>>>> last
>>>> year...
>>>>
>>>> I obviously can't judge the quality of the metal/heat treatment
>>>> unless/until something fails... but I will say this, the *feel* of the
>>>> ratchets and wrenches is closer to my old S-K stuff than it is to
>>>> any of
>>>> the Craftsman tools in my collection save for one polished-handle
>>>> "professional" ratchet that I got when my local Sears was out of the
>>>> standard ones to exchange (and they apparently stopped selling the
>>>> ratchet
>>>> rebuild kits years ago)
>>>>
>>>> I liked them enough that when I needed a set of large 6-point metric
>>>> sockets and I saw a set on sale at Lowe's packaged with a 1/2"
>>>> ratchet I
>>>> bought them, I figure an extra ratchet is a good thing to have, and the
>>>> cost was less than just the sockets at Sears. I find myself using that
>>>> ratchet more than the Craftsman one because it feels better. (the only
>>>> S-K sockets/ratchets I have are old, and 3/8" drive SAE. I also managed
>>>> to pick up a set of S-K metric combo wrenches, but damn if it isn't
>>>> missing the 13mm... almost want to buy one just so that one Craftsman
>>>> wrench doesn't **** me off.)
>>>>
>>>> nate
>>>
>>> I could see a 16 or an 18, but a 13? That's one of the most
>>> utilized, commonly found sizes. Perhaps they figured if you
>>> have even one size already, it would be the obvious choice.
>>>
>>
>> A friend found the set in a pawn shop, that's why the 13 is missing...
>> I'm certain that it originally came with one, because, as you say, it
>> ties for the 10mm for the one that you use the most.
>>
>> I'd love to have a complete set of brand-new pro quality tools, but
>> sadly, with the amount of tools needed/wanted, buying them all new at
>> retail pricing doesn't seem like a good bet for a DIYer.
>>
>> nate
>>
>>
>
> the empty vessel makes the loudest sound. "i've got no money for tools"
> he bleats, and yet he'll spend thousands and thousands on multiple rot
> boxes that he can't give away. ridiculous.
>
>

No, I'm smart. I spend less money on higher quality tools, and buy good
used cars so I'm not paying for the depreciation that comes from driving
a vehicle off the lot.

You can continue to be a dumbass and spend more for less, as I have no
doubt you will, given your continued expressions of idiocy.

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
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