brakes hard to push

96 Grade Voyager.

When I have to stop quick, I have to push very very hard on the brake
pedal. With normal stopping I don't seem to notice it much. My
understanding is that the ABS system can't cause this problem. How do
I figure out what is wrong?

it sounds like your master cylinder is causing the problem here.

--

"stewart" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> 96 Grade Voyager.
>
> When I have to stop quick, I have to push very very hard on the brake
> pedal. With normal stopping I don't seem to notice it much. My
> understanding is that the ABS system can't cause this problem. How do
> I figure out what is wrong?
>
Forget about the ABS unless you have a problem with antilock. Go back to the
basics and check lining material, Master cyl, and leaks.
Glenn Beasley
Chrysler Tech

stewart wrote:
> 96 Grade Voyager.
>
> When I have to stop quick, I have to push very very hard on the brake
> pedal. With normal stopping I don't seem to notice it much. My
> understanding is that the ABS system can't cause this problem. How do
> I figure out what is wrong?
>

The booster is a likely cause. Check vacuum to the booster and the
integrity of the check valve at the booster. If there are vaccum leaks
associated with the booster (some can be internal to its valving), it
will lack capacity for a good stab at the brakes. Run your engine, then
shut it off, and see if the booster has enough vacuum charge in it for
one or two brake applications. Run the engine and shut it off and see
if it has vacuum charge after sitting for a few minutes.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

You describe my own experience with a '97 Grand Voyager. Brakes are fine on
the move and capable of stopping the vehicle (when rear drums are adjusted
properly) just fine. However, at slow speeds (5 - 10 mph) when you need to
stop abruptly, even very high pedal pressures will not bring the car to a
sudden stop,and this is not the ABS cutting in. Usually it is not an issue,
but when you are in slow nose to tail traffic which suddenly stops, it can
get interesting! Maybe the later models with discs at the rear don't have
this "feature"

Gerald

"stewart" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> 96 Grade Voyager.
>
> When I have to stop quick, I have to push very very hard on the brake
> pedal. With normal stopping I don't seem to notice it much. My
> understanding is that the ABS system can't cause this problem. How do
> I figure out what is wrong?
>

Gerald Wooding wrote:
> You describe my own experience with a '97 Grand Voyager. Brakes are fine on
> the move and capable of stopping the vehicle (when rear drums are adjusted
> properly) just fine. However, at slow speeds (5 - 10 mph) when you need to
> stop abruptly, even very high pedal pressures will not bring the car to a
> sudden stop,and this is not the ABS cutting in. Usually it is not an issue,
> but when you are in slow nose to tail traffic which suddenly stops, it can
> get interesting! Maybe the later models with discs at the rear don't have
> this "feature"

I owned a 96 Grand Voyager an currently own an 03 Grand Caravan. Both
with rear drums and never had any problem stopping from any speed.


Matt

Matt

Perhaps its because mine is right hand drive, the cross-over link (as master
cylinder and servo remain on the left) may introduce some "give".

Gerald


"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Gerald Wooding wrote:
>> You describe my own experience with a '97 Grand Voyager. Brakes are fine
>> on the move and capable of stopping the vehicle (when rear drums are
>> adjusted properly) just fine. However, at slow speeds (5 - 10 mph) when
>> you need to stop abruptly, even very high pedal pressures will not bring
>> the car to a sudden stop,and this is not the ABS cutting in. Usually it
>> is not an issue, but when you are in slow nose to tail traffic which
>> suddenly stops, it can get interesting! Maybe the later models with discs
>> at the rear don't have this "feature"
>
> I owned a 96 Grand Voyager an currently own an 03 Grand Caravan. Both
> with rear drums and never had any problem stopping from any speed.
>
>
> Matt

Bill Putney wrote:

> stewart wrote:
>
>> 96 Grade Voyager.
>>
>> When I have to stop quick, I have to push very very hard on the brake
>> pedal. With normal stopping I don't seem to notice it much. My
>> understanding is that the ABS system can't cause this problem. How do
>> I figure out what is wrong?
>>
>
> The booster is a likely cause.

I agree! I was surprised to see this the 3rd or 4th post down the thread
instead of the very first.

It may not be the booster itself, it could be the check valve where the
vacuum line feeds into the booster. I've seen cases where the check
valve is bad and you don't notice it in normal driving because the
engine can restore vacuum to the booster in the half-second or so
between taking your foot off the gas and putting it on the brake, but in
a PANIC stop you lift off the accelerator and hit the brake before
vacuum can recover.

Gerald Wooding wrote:

> You describe my own experience with a '97 Grand Voyager. Brakes are fine on
> the move and capable of stopping the vehicle (when rear drums are adjusted
> properly) just fine. However, at slow speeds (5 - 10 mph) when you need to
> stop abruptly, even very high pedal pressures will not bring the car to a
> sudden stop,and this is not the ABS cutting in. Usually it is not an issue,
> but when you are in slow nose to tail traffic which suddenly stops, it can
> get interesting! Maybe the later models with discs at the rear don't have
> this "feature"
>
> Gerald

It has nothing to do with drums or disks on the rear. The front disks
ALONE should be able to stop the car quickly if everything is working
right. Rear brakes typically contribute 20% or less to the total
stopping power of the car, and besides that drums CAN produce as much
stopping power as disks- they just can't do it repeatedly from high speeds.

Steve

Yes, but if the rear drums are not adjusted properly due to worn shoes etc.,
then you will experience greater than normal pedal travel before the front
brakes start to bite. But as an example my previous vehicle, a 2.2ltr
turbo-diesel Toyota Estima MPV (Japanese version of the Previa albeit
slightly narrower) had drums at the back and didn't behave in the same way.

Gerald


"Steve" > wrote in message
...
> Gerald Wooding wrote:
>
>> You describe my own experience with a '97 Grand Voyager. Brakes are fine
>> on the move and capable of stopping the vehicle (when rear drums are
>> adjusted properly) just fine. However, at slow speeds (5 - 10 mph) when
>> you need to stop abruptly, even very high pedal pressures will not bring
>> the car to a sudden stop,and this is not the ABS cutting in. Usually it
>> is not an issue, but when you are in slow nose to tail traffic which
>> suddenly stops, it can get interesting! Maybe the later models with discs
>> at the rear don't have this "feature"
>>
>> Gerald
>
> It has nothing to do with drums or disks on the rear. The front disks
> ALONE should be able to stop the car quickly if everything is working
> right. Rear brakes typically contribute 20% or less to the total stopping
> power of the car, and besides that drums CAN produce as much stopping
> power as disks- they just can't do it repeatedly from high speeds.