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Fishless cycling



 
 
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  #22  
Old January 1st 05, 01:29 AM
Nikki Casali
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Mandy wrote:
Speaking of, how do you do big water changes on a 37 gallon tank? If I
take out just 15 gallons, that 15 gallons of water I need to treat to
put back in the tank. What kind of containers do you use? I imagine
five gallon buckets - but those are heavy! I have to lift the buckets
to neck height to get them in the tank...


I use a 9 UK gallon bucket on my 75 UK gallon aquarium. I just use a
pond pump with a hose to get the water into the tank. Although I drag
the bucket with the dirty water across the dining room tiles to the
sliding doors to the garden and just tip it. The weeds love it!

Nikki

  #23  
Old January 1st 05, 01:43 AM
Michi Henning
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"Ozdude" wrote in message
...

Well, seeing I have a lot of plants I don't think fishless will be the way.
My only concern is that the fish don't have flaming ammonia/nitrite burnt
gills, so is it okay to just put in the plants, let it sit for a week or so
and it will still cycle?, or do we need fish in there to keep the cycle
input happening?


You need some source of ammonia, otherwise your cycle will take
a long time. That's what the fish are for -- they provide a steady
low-level amount of ammonia through their waste. And, if you use
the right kind of fish, such as Otocinclus Affinis, you also control
any algae that might be about to establish themselves.

I intend to keep the temperature at around 25-26C (76-79F) too, will that
make a difference to the bacteria types do you think?


That's just fine. Temperature isn't that important.

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

  #24  
Old January 1st 05, 01:51 AM
Mandy
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What about heating the water before you put it in the tank? 10 gallons
out of the hose would be very cold indeed!
I plan to use the dirty water to feed my indoor plants as well!

  #25  
Old January 1st 05, 01:57 AM
Ozdude
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"Michi Henning" wrote in message
...
"Ozdude" wrote in message
...

Well, seeing I have a lot of plants I don't think fishless will be the
way.
My only concern is that the fish don't have flaming ammonia/nitrite burnt
gills, so is it okay to just put in the plants, let it sit for a week or
so
and it will still cycle?, or do we need fish in there to keep the cycle
input happening?


You need some source of ammonia, otherwise your cycle will take
a long time. That's what the fish are for -- they provide a steady
low-level amount of ammonia through their waste. And, if you use
the right kind of fish, such as Otocinclus Affinis, you also control
any algae that might be about to establish themselves.

I intend to keep the temperature at around 25-26C (76-79F) too, will that
make a difference to the bacteria types do you think?


That's just fine. Temperature isn't that important.


Thanks, great advice to a relative novice

Oz


  #26  
Old January 1st 05, 02:40 AM
Robert Flory
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"Mandy" wrote in message
oups.com...
Bob wrote: "From a grade school chemistry experiment -- ammonia
solutions are high pH.
NEUTRALIZATION OF AN ACID


Okay, trying to read thru the glaze over my eyes... You're just
saying that my ph is high because my ammonia is high and will likely go
down when the cycle is finished?


To a certain extent. Ammonia solutions are alkaline ... high pH. I've
forgotten too much to even quess how much of a drop you might see. Of
course once you get fish the organic acids will drive it down too as will
CO2.

It may not be the primary reason for the high pH. All sorts of things come
into play carbonate, bicarbonate and maybe the water company. Before I
moved, I had 8.9+ ph coming out of the tap. I lived near the water plan and
they added some sort of hydroxide to raise the pH and reduce the corrosion.
Played hell with my Angels.

try http://www.drhelm.com/aquarium/chemistry.html

I don't fool with cycling, with a heavily planted tank and old filters there
is no problem, so long has you dopn't dump 100 fish in at once.

bob



  #27  
Old January 1st 05, 02:41 AM
Robert Flory
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On the other hand they migh just starve too if there isn't any algae.

Bob

"Michi Henning" wrote in message
...
"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
...

AHAH! And here I was giving the credit to the Eco-Complete substrate.
Since I'm getting ready to plant another small tank, your info is much
appreciated.

And everybody can ignore my prior praise of EC for eliminating cycling
:-).


EC would help, if it contains sufficient numbers of live bacteria.
But this method works fine with ordinary substrate as well --
the plants you get from the LFS are covered in bacteria anyway.

I forgot to add: the first fish should be algae eaters. Otocinclus,
SAE's, and juvenile bristlenoses are good choices. And don't
feed for the first few days -- the idea is to make the fish go for
any algae that is about to establish itself because ammonia levels
will be elevated until the tank has cycled (even though the level
of ammonia will be too low to detect with ordinary test kits).
Algae are extremely good at growing with even small amounts
of ammonia, so it's important to get those algae nipped in the
bug right from the word go.

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com



  #28  
Old January 1st 05, 02:45 AM
Robert Flory
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"Michi Henning" wrote in message SNIP
That's what the fish are for -- they provide a steady
low-level amount of ammonia through their waste. And, if you use
the right kind of fish, such as Otocinclus Affinis, you also control
any algae that might be about to establish themselves.

New Otos tend to be fragile, you'd likely have a big die off and as I said
above probably starve them ....
unless the plants came in with a good load of algae.

Start with something cheap.

Bob


  #29  
Old January 1st 05, 02:59 AM
Robert Flory
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"Ozdude" wrote in message
...

SNIP


We'll see how it goes after testing with a full plant load. I do have a
PDF file here entitled "Seeding a new tank filter" where it's stated that
the guy basically just transplanted as much bio matter as possible from an
established tank, waited for it to clear (about 1 day), added some Cycle
and a tsp of salt per gallon (electrolyte support), or something like that
and never had a spike of anything and can put whatever he likes in the
tank as far as fish - providing he doesn't actually over stock it of
course. He reports that even when adding new fish, there is no cycle in
this system.


When I moved, I set up a new 55 at the new place, used half the substrate
from the old tank, half the filter material from the old tank, 25% water
from the old tank Filled it with water, dosed with Prime, after 12 hours
hauled all the fish and plants over and dumped them in. No problems.
Instant cycle.

Plants will use ammonia before they take in other forms of nitrogen.

A new tank stocked with lots of plants may take a long time for a cycle in
the traditional sense (duilding up a good population of de-nitrification
bacteria) as there will be a very low population of bugs in your filter.
Nothing for them to live onRegardless of what you do don't try to max out
the fish load at once unless you have mature filter material


Sounds great to me! Perhaps all this cycling stuff needs to be not taken
so, so seriously, but just as a strong heads up to a potential problem?

It also seems to me that there are many paramters concerned and as all
situations vary and differ for each of us then the cycling is various and
different.


If you have a bare tank cycling is very important unless you are using old
mature filter material. The problem is most people don't have that sort of
thing available.
A heavily planted tank is not one with a few plants either, it is full of
plants. The advantage of a heavily planted tank is you don't have much need
to vac the substrate. Of course they are a whole problem of their own,
nutrients, light levels, CO2 and ALGAE ;-)


  #30  
Old January 1st 05, 03:51 AM
Michi Henning
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"Robert Flory" wrote in message
...
On the other hand they migh just starve too if there isn't any algae.


Fish get by without any food whatsoever for at least a week, if
not more. If you don't feed for the first week, you definitely
won't starve them. And there is always algae, even if you can't
see it. Otocincluse are remarkably good at rasping new growth
off leaves, roots, glass, stones, and the substrate. The most
minute growth is quite enough for them to get by for a long
time.

Cheers,

Michi.
--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

 




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