First Racing get surly

What's up with this?


http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000827034428/

First Racing get surly

Posted Mar 4, 2005, 10:30 AM ET by Steve Parsons
Related entries: Driving, PC

A lot of folk were very sad when Vivendi shut down Papyrus. Papyrus are
probably best known for Grand Prix Legends, a game which still enjoys
great success today. However, the last title from the company, NASCAR
Racing 2003, lives on, in the form of several great mods. At least
until today it did.

First Racing is what is left of Papyrus. Today comes this open letter
to the sim community that, in essence, says NO MORE MODS OR ELSE. Mods
are a way to guarantee a game thrives. Is potentially
cease-and-desisting folk who are modding a game a shrewd move, when you
have something new and shiny to offer, despite the fact that those same
individuals are the reason you're a success in the first place?

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> What's up with this?
>
>
> http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000827034428/
>
> First Racing get surly
>
> Posted Mar 4, 2005, 10:30 AM ET by Steve Parsons
> Related entries: Driving, PC
>
> A lot of folk were very sad when Vivendi shut down Papyrus. Papyrus are
> probably best known for Grand Prix Legends, a game which still enjoys
> great success today. However, the last title from the company, NASCAR
> Racing 2003, lives on, in the form of several great mods. At least
> until today it did.
>
> First Racing is what is left of Papyrus. Today comes this open letter
> to the sim community that, in essence, says NO MORE MODS OR ELSE. Mods
> are a way to guarantee a game thrives. Is potentially
> cease-and-desisting folk who are modding a game a shrewd move, when you
> have something new and shiny to offer, despite the fact that those same
> individuals are the reason you're a success in the first place?




Yeah, it'll be interesting to see the reaction to this. EA gets slammed
for being a sole license holder, etc., so same should apply here it would
seem.

But it probably won't, if ya follow <wink>
















>

I don't blame Kaemmer and Henry a bit for taking a tough stand. BTW, the
post does not say no mods allowed. It says no hacking, and he explains the
difference. Authorized and licensed mods will be allowed, hence the last
line of his post regarding GTP.


> wrote in message
ups.com...
: What's up with this?
:
:
: http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000827034428/
:
: First Racing get surly
:
: Posted Mar 4, 2005, 10:30 AM ET by Steve Parsons
: Related entries: Driving, PC
:
: A lot of folk were very sad when Vivendi shut down Papyrus. Papyrus are
: probably best known for Grand Prix Legends, a game which still enjoys
: great success today. However, the last title from the company, NASCAR
: Racing 2003, lives on, in the form of several great mods. At least
: until today it did.
:
: First Racing is what is left of Papyrus. Today comes this open letter
: to the sim community that, in essence, says NO MORE MODS OR ELSE. Mods
: are a way to guarantee a game thrives. Is potentially
: cease-and-desisting folk who are modding a game a shrewd move, when you
: have something new and shiny to offer, despite the fact that those same
: individuals are the reason you're a success in the first place?
:

"Bob V" wrote:

> I don't blame Kaemmer and Henry a bit for taking a tough stand. BTW, the
> post does not say no mods allowed. It says no hacking, and he explains
the
> difference. Authorized and licensed mods will be allowed, hence the last
> line of his post regarding GTP.

Any updates are viewed as "acceptable only if it doesn’t violate third party
trademarks or other intellectual property rights (such as logos, car designs
or tracks owned by other parties)."

Which pretty much covers anything that is trying to replicate something
real, be it a car, the sponsors logos or a real life track.

I'm more than happy for Kaemmer and co to produce a stream of releases based
on his new engine. Touring cars, rally cars, street cars, open wheel, dirt
cars etc. so we can pick the ones we want. Maybe now released from the
shackles of the publishers it will happen as was the apparent aim when the
GPL engine was produced. However, the lack of a non Nascar title for over 6
years has meant the fans of the Kaemmer based engines have only been
satisfied by the modding teams, so it seems a bit rich to be throwing some
weight around before there is anything tangible for the non nascar sim
community. The same community that kept his products alive and maintained a
core set of fans.

As for the car analogies, innovation doesn't last long before it is copied.
All the manufacturers can do is to aim to be a step ahead. If Kaemmer
belives cars are not reverse engineered to be copied then he is being very
naive. The common rail diesel engine was invented by Fiat a year before GPL.
Now most diesel powered cars use common rail technology and Fiat is on its
second generation common rail design along with pretty much everyone else.

Plus modding cars is a career rather than a hobby for many...

The advantage Kaemmer has over the modders is he has the resources and
dedicated time to be innovative, whilst the modders have to play catch up
with limited resource (most have day jobs and limited access to tolls of the
trade). All he has to do is to innovate and there is no problem. With the
time it takes to tool up a factory copying an existing competitors cars will
simply mean you are behind the next version by the time it comes out.
Similarly producing software including modding takes a long time.

A mod based on NR2003 should only be of interest if there is nothing of that
genre available, otherwise the 2005 version of the game engine should be the
one the choice. The modders end up modifying the physics due to no suitable
retail product being available.

Other games software companies are actively encouraging modding (such as
"make something Unreal") presumably because they believe it will enhance
interest in their products and gain future sales. embracing the community
rather than trying to suppress it.

So fairly unimpressed with First Racing's start so far...

Tony

In article . com>,
says...
> What's up with this?
>
>
> http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000827034428/
>
> First Racing get surly
>
> Posted Mar 4, 2005, 10:30 AM ET by Steve Parsons
> Related entries: Driving, PC
>
> A lot of folk were very sad when Vivendi shut down Papyrus. Papyrus are
> probably best known for Grand Prix Legends, a game which still enjoys
> great success today. However, the last title from the company, NASCAR
> Racing 2003, lives on, in the form of several great mods. At least
> until today it did.
>
> First Racing is what is left of Papyrus. Today comes this open letter
> to the sim community that, in essence, says NO MORE MODS OR ELSE. Mods
> are a way to guarantee a game thrives. Is potentially
> cease-and-desisting folk who are modding a game a shrewd move, when you
> have something new and shiny to offer, despite the fact that those same
> individuals are the reason you're a success in the first place?
>
>

They bought the rights (including all source and binary files), why is
that so hard to understand?

They'r merely clarifying their position.

John Simmons wrote:

> They bought the rights (including all source and binary files), why
is
> that so hard to understand

It's antagonistic towards the community that buys and supports their
products. The reason why I see it as such, is that I have yet to see a
mod for a Papyrus or any other game/sim that has not required the
purchase of the original product. This includes GPL65, GTR, the Trans
Am mod for NR2003, etc. Now if a company or individual came along and
was distributing Papyrus products, then I can see their point. But
that's an entirely different set of circumstances and most of us here
would be in complete agreement that it's wrong and needs to be
curtailed.

I think there are quite a few mods that wouldn't be available for GPL
if this policy was enforced. This includes a well known track
converter, GPL 65, and probably a dozen more enhancements of which I
have no knowledge.

I can see their point, but it's creating ill will before they've even
shipped a product. Do you think they stopped to think that if they
were providing good, solid content (mods) on their own that private
individuals wouldn't feel the need to produce their own content? Thus
negating the need to take an antagonistic stand right off the bat.

"John Simmons" wrote:

> They bought the rights (including all source and binary files), why is
> that so hard to understand?
>
> They'r merely clarifying their position.

That is clear. Although it does gives us a (hopefully misleading) message
that the modders can compete with what First Racing are planning to launch.
I was hoping for more innovation than a tweaked NR2003.

In my view First Racing need to establish themselves as the leaders in sim
racing and then aim to stay there through quality product releases, rather
than rely on stopping others use their old stuff.

> wrote:

> I can see their point, but it's creating ill will before they've even
> shipped a product. Do you think they stopped to think that if they
> were providing good, solid content (mods) on their own that private
> individuals wouldn't feel the need to produce their own content? Thus
> negating the need to take an antagonistic stand right off the bat.

I quite agree. Take a close look at the article again:

http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000827034428/

Would Grand Prix Legends still enjoy success today and the loss of Papy be
mourned by non Nascar fans without the mods? Nothing graphically in that
image is produced by Papy, yet the image looks as good as pretty much any
other modern sim.

In my view this allows First Racing to be taken seriously, otherwise Kaemmer
would be remembered by those that played GPL in the late 90s and little
known to the newcomers. It smacks of a lack of confidence in their new stuff
and seems a PR gaff to me.

"Tony Rickard" > wrote in
. uk:

> So fairly unimpressed with First Racing's start so far...
>
> Tony
>

Agreed, I have been a Papyrus/Kaemmer supporter for it seems like a
decade. I am, however, totally deflated by this current stand.

They are protecting outdated code. Surely they can't believe a mod will
attract attention if it only LOOKS like a gtp car? Sure it drives like a
Nascar Tank, but trust us...it LOOKS like a Porche 962.

Several points jump out at me. ISI is making at least some cash selling
the tools they use to create thier sims to modders. Not all groups and not
all mods, but some folks have paid cash. Not to license the cars, logos,
tracks, or whatever, but the tools to create new stuff that ISI doesn't
have the time or resources to address themselves.

Simbin and GTR would NOT exist today if the original FIA V3 2k1 mod
"looked" like a Viper or a Ferrari 550 but drove like an F1 rocket. RSDG
would not be creating new mods based on sportscars if they drove like F1
cars. RSR's brilliant ETCC touring car mod would be a COMPLETE FREEAKING
DISASTER if it drove like an dang EFF One car.

Yet that is the constraint First is demanding. Feel free to mess with
the shapes, sounds, graphics...but don't you dare make the cars lighter, or
heavier, or lower, or or or....

Finally the exe that FIRST is so jealously protecting has been hacked for
a long time now. There isn't anything in there that SOMEBODY hasn't
already pried apart and poked and prodded and massaged. This defense of
secrets that are not secrets is obsured.

and one more finally...

To use the FIRST auto analogy. Suppose BMW makes an M3, but somebody
finds a way to build a custom part that IMPROVES the M3. Does BMW scream
bloody murder? Do they sic lawyers on a guy whose new pipe or chip
increases the performance of the M3? No, they say thanks for creating
something that increases sales of my product and improves the value of said
product to those who have already purchased it.


I was lucky enough to get the GTP v1.0 release. I am tempted to flood
the binaries newsgroups....tempted... I have known folks in the company
via the net for years. Sites like theuspits have worked hand in hand with
that team, fine way to keep in touch Dave..

dave henrie

Mr Simmons spoke:
They bought the rights (including all source and binary files), why is
that so hard to understand?

They're merely clarifying their position.
-------------------

I agree.

I think that whatever they are producing had better be freekin amazing,
or quite a few sim racers will be looking the other way.

At the moment though, I have a bad taste in my mouth about this.




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