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why do car engines get noisier with age?



 
 
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  #11  
Old February 15th 05, 11:36 PM
Nate Nagel
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Lawrence Glickman wrote:

> On 15 Feb 2005 10:59:32 -0800, wrote:
>
>
>> Piston slap is rare.

>
>
> It seems to be the rule rather than the exception on GM vehicles.
> do visit
www.pistonslap.com for all the sordid details.
>
> Including the lawsuits against GM,
> and the LAME TSB's from GM that state adding 4 quarts of oil ever 700
> miles is *normal*
>
> I'll keep my FORD, thanks anyhow.
>
> Lg


I dunno if it's piston slap or something else, but there's something at
work that makes every V-6 from the 2.8/3.1 family sound like utter and
complete ****e. They're kinda like cockroaches though, they must last
at least a while, because I sure see/hear enough of them.

On the flip side, Ford seems to have figured out how to make an engine
sound sweet, even if it isn't truly fast. I can't remember the last
time I heard a bad-sounding V-8 Mustang.

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel
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  #12  
Old February 16th 05, 12:14 AM
Lawrence Glickman
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On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:36:21 -0500, Nate Nagel >
wrote:

>Lawrence Glickman wrote:
>
>> On 15 Feb 2005 10:59:32 -0800, wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Piston slap is rare.

>>
>>
>> It seems to be the rule rather than the exception on GM vehicles.
>> do visit
www.pistonslap.com for all the sordid details.
>>
>> Including the lawsuits against GM,
>> and the LAME TSB's from GM that state adding 4 quarts of oil ever 700
>> miles is *normal*
>>
>> I'll keep my FORD, thanks anyhow.
>>
>> Lg

>
>I dunno if it's piston slap or something else, but there's something at
>work that makes every V-6 from the 2.8/3.1 family sound like utter and
>complete ****e. They're kinda like cockroaches though, they must last
>at least a while, because I sure see/hear enough of them.
>
>On the flip side, Ford seems to have figured out how to make an engine
>sound sweet, even if it isn't truly fast. I can't remember the last
>time I heard a bad-sounding V-8 Mustang.
>
>nate


I bought a $25,000 Fix Or Repair Daily, for a _hefty_ discount because
it was a low mileage dealer demo and last year's model. I am a
satisfied customer. My engine, you can hardly hear it with the hood
up and standing right in front of it.

An associate of mine bought a GM SUV in the High $30's, very high
$30's, I am guessing $36 thousand plus, and my engine sounds better
than his does, and his is brand new. I bet the reason his SUV sounds
like a truck, is because it -is- a truck, and a piston-slapping GM.

Add to that the 1.5 minute *NORMAL* piston slap at warm-up according
to General Motors, and I would have put my checkbook back in my pocket
and gone looking for something else, better, at 1/2 the price ( which
is what I paid ).

Look at what GM has to say about their shakey engines in the TSB's at
www.pistonslap.com. Their own words!

1) I'll never buy a =brand= new vehicle, it is a total waste of money
IMO

2) I'll never buy a GM vehicle, unless it's being given away at
wholesale ( dealer cost ).

My car does have its flaws ( which I have yet to encounter ).
heater cores clog up, but this can be forestalled with backflushing it
trannys are known to be very sensitive to the mix. Mercon V only, or
say goodbye to it.

Other than that, nothing a can of WD-40 can't fix.

Lg

  #13  
Old February 16th 05, 01:38 AM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

>I dunno if it's piston slap or something else, but there's something
at
>work that makes every V-6 from the 2.8/3.1 family sound like utter and


>complete ^$#@#&&*.


Solid lifters in the Ford 2.8, at least. A German design.
Got to adjust them just like in the good old days.

Dan

  #14  
Old February 16th 05, 02:44 AM
Spud Demon
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Lawrence Glickman > writes in article > dated Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:18:17 -0600:
>Including the lawsuits against GM,
>and the LAME TSB's from GM that state adding 4 quarts of oil ever 700
>miles is *normal*


7500, I think you dropped a 5.

-- spud_demon -at- thundermaker.net
The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.
  #15  
Old February 16th 05, 05:55 PM
Steve
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Default

Lawrence Glickman wrote:

> On 15 Feb 2005 10:59:32 -0800, wrote:
>
>
>> Piston slap is rare.

>
>
> It seems to be the rule rather than the exception on GM vehicles.
> do visit
www.pistonslap.com for all the sordid details.
>
> Including the lawsuits against GM,
> and the LAME TSB's from GM that state adding 4 quarts of oil ever 700
> miles is *normal*
>
> I'll keep my FORD, thanks anyhow.
>


To be fair, Ford had piston-slap and high oil consumption problems on
the Modular v8 series *years* before GM had it. And for the same
reasons- too hard to maintain the .002 max clearance tolerances needed
by hypereutectic pistons in a mass-production environment. Ford is using
coated pistons now, and have the problem down to the proverbial "dull
roar" instead of the millions of screaming buyers that it was a few
years ago.
  #16  
Old February 16th 05, 06:47 PM
Lawrence Glickman
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On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:55:18 -0600, Steve > wrote:

>Lawrence Glickman wrote:
>
>> On 15 Feb 2005 10:59:32 -0800, wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Piston slap is rare.

>>
>>
>> It seems to be the rule rather than the exception on GM vehicles.
>> do visit
www.pistonslap.com for all the sordid details.
>>
>> Including the lawsuits against GM,
>> and the LAME TSB's from GM that state adding 4 quarts of oil ever 700
>> miles is *normal*
>>
>> I'll keep my FORD, thanks anyhow.
>>

>
>To be fair, Ford had piston-slap and high oil consumption problems on
>the Modular v8 series *years* before GM had it. And for the same
>reasons- too hard to maintain the .002 max clearance tolerances needed
>by hypereutectic pistons in a mass-production environment. Ford is using
>coated pistons now, and have the problem down to the proverbial "dull
>roar" instead of the millions of screaming buyers that it was a few
>years ago.


I had another Mercury before this, a Tracer, which sounded like a tank
compared to this Mercury Sable. It handled like one also. If there
was a pebble in the road you felt it if you drove over it.

This Ford/Lincoln/Mercury product has a much kinder and gentler ride
to it. I'm not sorry I bought it, =yet=. Doesn't burn any oil at all
as far as I can tell. And is quiet, comfortable to drive.

There are better vehicles around, but I don't have the money for them.
There are plenty of worse ones around also. The difference between
the Sable and the Tracer is with the Sable you arrive at your
destination without feeling banged-up, bruised, and exhausted. And
road noise and engine noise can stress you out on any trip. Maybe
that's why the put the engines in the -back- of busses instead of the
front.

Lg

  #17  
Old February 16th 05, 09:21 PM
Stan Kasperski
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Steve wrote:
> Lawrence Glickman wrote:
>
>> On 15 Feb 2005 10:59:32 -0800, wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Piston slap is rare.

>>
>>
>>
>> It seems to be the rule rather than the exception on GM vehicles.
>> do visit
www.pistonslap.com for all the sordid details.
>>
>> Including the lawsuits against GM,
>> and the LAME TSB's from GM that state adding 4 quarts of oil ever 700
>> miles is *normal*
>>
>> I'll keep my FORD, thanks anyhow.
>>

>
> To be fair, Ford had piston-slap and high oil consumption problems on
> the Modular v8 series *years* before GM had it. And for the same
> reasons- too hard to maintain the .002 max clearance tolerances needed
> by hypereutectic pistons in a mass-production environment. Ford is using
> coated pistons now, and have the problem down to the proverbial "dull
> roar" instead of the millions of screaming buyers that it was a few
> years ago.

I have one of the very early modular engines (built 9/'91) in my '92
Grand Marquis. It is, by far, the quietest engine I have ever owned.
When I bought it with 113k miles, it did consume oil, but after
replacing the valve stem seals, it doesn't consume noticeable oil even
now at 213k miles. Dual exhaust, no noise, no vibration, no piston
slap, merely very smooth.
Stan K.
  #18  
Old February 17th 05, 12:24 AM
Steve
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Default

Stan Kasperski wrote:

> Steve wrote:
>
>> Lawrence Glickman wrote:
>>
>>> On 15 Feb 2005 10:59:32 -0800, wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Piston slap is rare.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It seems to be the rule rather than the exception on GM vehicles.
>>> do visit
www.pistonslap.com for all the sordid details.
>>>
>>> Including the lawsuits against GM,
>>> and the LAME TSB's from GM that state adding 4 quarts of oil ever 700
>>> miles is *normal*
>>>
>>> I'll keep my FORD, thanks anyhow.
>>>

>>
>> To be fair, Ford had piston-slap and high oil consumption problems on
>> the Modular v8 series *years* before GM had it. And for the same
>> reasons- too hard to maintain the .002 max clearance tolerances needed
>> by hypereutectic pistons in a mass-production environment. Ford is
>> using coated pistons now, and have the problem down to the proverbial
>> "dull roar" instead of the millions of screaming buyers that it was a
>> few years ago.

>
> I have one of the very early modular engines (built 9/'91) in my '92
> Grand Marquis. It is, by far, the quietest engine I have ever owned.
> When I bought it with 113k miles, it did consume oil, but after
> replacing the valve stem seals, it doesn't consume noticeable oil even
> now at 213k miles. Dual exhaust, no noise, no vibration, no piston
> slap, merely very smooth.
> Stan K.


People just do NOT understand production tolerance problems, it seems.
Of course, many THOUSANDS of them ran perfectly! The problem was that an
unacceptably large percentage of them were assembled out-of-tolerance,
and had piston slap and/or swilled a quart of oil every 600 miles. The
fact that thousands of others run over 200,000 miles without a hiccup
doesn't mean that the problem didn't exist! It just means that its a
PRODUCTION problem, not an inherent DESIGN problem.

  #19  
Old February 17th 05, 02:46 AM
Lawrence Glickman
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Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:24:54 -0600, Steve > wrote:

>Stan Kasperski wrote:
>
>> Steve wrote:
>>
>>> Lawrence Glickman wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 15 Feb 2005 10:59:32 -0800, wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Piston slap is rare.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It seems to be the rule rather than the exception on GM vehicles.
>>>> do visit
www.pistonslap.com for all the sordid details.
>>>>
>>>> Including the lawsuits against GM,
>>>> and the LAME TSB's from GM that state adding 4 quarts of oil ever 700
>>>> miles is *normal*
>>>>
>>>> I'll keep my FORD, thanks anyhow.
>>>>
>>>
>>> To be fair, Ford had piston-slap and high oil consumption problems on
>>> the Modular v8 series *years* before GM had it. And for the same
>>> reasons- too hard to maintain the .002 max clearance tolerances needed
>>> by hypereutectic pistons in a mass-production environment. Ford is
>>> using coated pistons now, and have the problem down to the proverbial
>>> "dull roar" instead of the millions of screaming buyers that it was a
>>> few years ago.

>>
>> I have one of the very early modular engines (built 9/'91) in my '92
>> Grand Marquis. It is, by far, the quietest engine I have ever owned.
>> When I bought it with 113k miles, it did consume oil, but after
>> replacing the valve stem seals, it doesn't consume noticeable oil even
>> now at 213k miles. Dual exhaust, no noise, no vibration, no piston
>> slap, merely very smooth.
>> Stan K.

>
>People just do NOT understand production tolerance problems, it seems.
>Of course, many THOUSANDS of them ran perfectly! The problem was that an
>unacceptably large percentage of them were assembled out-of-tolerance,
>and had piston slap and/or swilled a quart of oil every 600 miles. The
>fact that thousands of others run over 200,000 miles without a hiccup
>doesn't mean that the problem didn't exist! It just means that its a
>PRODUCTION problem, not an inherent DESIGN problem.


And there is also something called a "Friday Car." The day of the
week it was assembled used to matter before robots came along to do
all the work. Now I think humans do a minimal amount of assembly,
like attaching wiring harnesses, _maybe_, otherwise everything has
been automated on the assembly lines. So there should be NO
production anomalies at _all_. Every car should be exactly the same
as the one before it and the one after it.

Lg

  #20  
Old February 17th 05, 05:53 PM
ray
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Posts: n/a
Default

Steve wrote:

>
> People just do NOT understand production tolerance problems, it seems.
> Of course, many THOUSANDS of them ran perfectly! The problem was that an
> unacceptably large percentage of them were assembled out-of-tolerance,
> and had piston slap and/or swilled a quart of oil every 600 miles. The
> fact that thousands of others run over 200,000 miles without a hiccup
> doesn't mean that the problem didn't exist! It just means that its a
> PRODUCTION problem, not an inherent DESIGN problem.
>


It's both. If you're designing parts and don't take into account
production tolerances.... you're gonna end up with crappy results.

Just because your new design makes 10 more horsepower or weighs 10
pounds less means nothing if it costs the company $100 extra to assemble
it and it's impossible to repair.

(Even robots on assembly lines can go out of spec.)

I guess it comes down to the same stuff like in computers:
is 99% good enough? 99.9? 99.999?
1 million engines with 95% problem free: 50,000 "bad" engines.
1 million engines with 99% problem free: 10,000 "bad" engines.
1 million engines with 99.9% problem free: 1,000 "bad" engines.
It all depends who's in charge - the beancounters - and how much money
it costs to go that extra mile... because I'm sure the cost to go from
99% to 99.9% isn't a nice linear graph...
 




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