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Hobby Ethics



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 1st 04, 06:31 AM
Eric Schreiber
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Default Hobby Ethics

LtWolfe wrote:

Thank you Letrol. You took the words right out of my mouth.


I'm not sure I'd be so quick to jump on le troll's band wagon.

--
www.ericschreiber.com
  #22  
Old January 1st 04, 06:33 AM
Eric Schreiber
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Default Hobby Ethics

"Dunter Powries" wrote:

How will incarceration restore a disrupted ecosystem?


Incarceration isn't intended as a means of reparation, and never was.
It is a means of punishment.

A genuinely RESPONSIBLE person would not have engaged in
an activity which could conceivably have resulted in damage
beyond their ability to repair or restore. Therefore, in
the event that damage DID occur, I would expect that a
genuinely RESPONSIBLE person would be able to restore that
ecosystem to it's previous state. No other outcome is
acceptable.


Now if only the world were populated by responsible people, we'd be
well on our way to utopia.

--
www.ericschreiber.com
  #23  
Old January 1st 04, 11:43 AM
Marksfish
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Default OT: Ethics

Any thoughts?

Isn't it the county next door to Kent????


  #24  
Old January 1st 04, 04:03 PM
Joseph
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Default Hobby Ethics

I live in Vacation Land (maine).

You can find both fish from live aquaria (online).

Joseph

On 30 Dec 2003 18:35:24 -0800, (nuchumYussel) wrote:

Hey Joeseph, what state do you live in? I live in Virginia and have
not found ANY stores in my area, Virginia Beach, that carry Killifish.
And have found ghost shirmp ONCE.

Evan


  #25  
Old January 1st 04, 08:31 PM
Le Trôle
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Default Hobby Ethics

"Empty" wrote in message
...
"Le Trôle" wrote in
:

What right? I may have missed the Right to Keep Exotic Pets in the
Constitution.


That's because rights exist whether or not they're found
in some Big List of Rights.


Yes, the right to keep exotic pets is a basic human right. In fact,
I think there was something about that in the Geneva Convention. Someone
alert the UN- Florida Fish and Game is oppressing LtWolfe!



You must be unclear on the concept of rights not being granted,
because you found yet another Big List of Rights to wave about.

The answer is the same.


The bottom line is that you have no "right" to make decisions
regarding the Florida ecosystem, nor do you have any "right"
to own any kind of aquarium fish or plant.


LtWolfe does indeed have the right to own any kind
of aquarium fish or plant, even though there may be
some reason that he should not exercise that right.


I suppose, then, that I have the right to dump 100 gallons of used motor
oil in the drainage tunnel outside my house?



Nope. You don't own the drainage tunnel.

The use of a drainage tunnel is a privilege based upon
your status as a resident of a given water district, and
certain conditions are required of you to use that facility.

You still have the right to own 100 gallons of used motor oil.
You just don't have the right to use it in a way that harms others.


Your rights end when someone else's begin,



Yes Gump, I know that.


and the well-being of the ecosystem that WE ALL depend on to
LIVE outweighs your theoritical right to keep something you find
interesting.



PETA goes one step beyond the well-being of the ecosystem,
and contends that well-being of all animals precludes their being
kept as pets. They also base their heart-felt pleas on the notion
that Man has no right to keep any kind of animal as a pet.

Sound familiar?


It appears that PETA has found yet another unwitting stooge.


What is this babble? I don't much like PETA, and this has NOTHING to do
with PETA. Call me the EPA's stooge if you have to fit me somewhere into
your tinfoil-hat conspiracy theories.



How are you able to dismiss my remarks as 'tinfoil-hat conspiracy theories'
whilst acknowledging the motives of PETA (and purposely distancing yourself)
in the same paragraph? Dishonest and selective reasoning?

Anyone who goes into 'nature presevation' rant whilst denying the
Right to Keep Fish is indeed an unwitting stooge of PETA.


I am, however, an aquarist with some knowledge of the delicate balance of
ecosystems and morals enough to know there are things more important than
my whims or desires.



It is your "whims and desires" that are responsible for having those
little fish that swim in glass box, so perhaps you need to be just a bit
less strident in condemning "whims and desires" as the root of evil.



  #26  
Old January 1st 04, 08:34 PM
Moontanman
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Default Hobby Ethics


I live in a land infested with Muscovy Ducks, toxic Bufo Toads, and
Melaleuca trees are soaking up my Everglades.... all non natives, all
introduced by folks who thought they knew better.


Good point Toni, keeping any fish would be ok if the owners took complete
responsibility for their pets from birth to death but too many people seem to
think that fish can be released when they are done with them. BTW don't give
hobbiests too hard a time most of the worst releases are made by the state to
enhance sport fishing. Not many aquarium fish can become established outside of
the deep south but even if the fish you relese will be killed by the winter
they may be carrying fish deseases that can infect the native fish and have a
very bad impact at some future date. that's why we have to have laws, because
people will not take resposibility for their freedoms.
remove nospam from e-mail to send to me, I grow trees in aquariums like bonsai.
I breed dwarf crayfish, great for planted community tanks. If you can get me a
shovelnose sturgeon fingerling (Scaphirhynchus platorynchus) no wild caught
please, contact me
  #27  
Old January 1st 04, 08:41 PM
Moontanman
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Default Hobby Ethics

don't buy from fish farms, right?). Bottom line, I am responsible for MY
actions. YOU are responsible
for YOUR actions. Let's keep it like that okay? (or rather, get it back like
that).


Unfortunatly release of an exotic plant or animal has far reaching consequenses
beyond the individual. Punishing someone for releasing, say, snakeheads into
the environment will not remove them once established. I am willing to take
resposibility for my actions but why should I and the environment suffer
because someone else didn't? BTW most of the fish farm releases are still quite
localized even to this day but they do raise havoc in the areas where they are
established. One of the few exotic releases I find difficult to see how they
could hurt is a lake in florida that contain a population of neon tetras. teh
small lake is not part of the general water system since it has no inlets or
outlets but it is an odd example. And no i don't know the location or name of
the lake.
remove nospam from e-mail to send to me, I grow trees in aquariums like bonsai.
I breed dwarf crayfish, great for planted community tanks. If you can get me a
shovelnose sturgeon fingerling (Scaphirhynchus platorynchus) no wild caught
please, contact me
  #28  
Old January 1st 04, 08:58 PM
Moontanman
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Default Hobby Ethics

Apparently not. Walking catfish alone have decimated your natural ecology,
and from some of the studies I have seen nearly 40% of Florida's fauna is
introduced species.

An exaggeration if you are referring to fish that are released from the
aquarium hobby. the state has doen some releasing of their own for sport
fishing that makes up a large portion of that.

What right? I may have missed the Right to Keep Exotic Pets in the
Constitution.


Exactly!

Because of
what someone ELSE did? Why should I be punished for the acts of
others? Does that seem right?


Not right just nesesarry, I handle some illegle exotics from time to time but
they never leave my fish room alive and keep in touch with my state government
about it so they know what i am doing and why
..
Hi there, welcome to the real world. Does it seem "right" to you that a
natural ecology should be entirely usurped because you want to keep
plant/animal X? Are your rights more important than entire sections of the
ecosystem your region depends on?


Good answer! If everyone was resposible there would not need to be any
restrictive laws on anything.

Besides, there are very few exotics
doing well, compared to the number in the hobby, and natives in FL.


This is actually true to some extent but any exotic is one too many!

You are very obviously not aware of the problem with exotics in your state
if you think this is the case.

http://www.swfwmd.state.fl.us/waterman/apm/apm.htm , to start with.
http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/Galler.../WalkingCatfis
h.html is another.

Bottom line, I am responsible for MY
actions. YOU are responsible for YOUR actions. Let's keep it like that
okay? (or rather, get it back like that).


Yes, let's. So be responsible, and follow the law, which is backed by the
Fish and Game Dept who obviously know much more about the natural ecology
of the area.


As much as I respect the fish and game people they have a nasty habit of
introducing exotics on a much larger scale than any hobbiest with no better
results. Again i say any exotic is one too many.

You may not think you are releasing these animals or plants in the wild,
and yet you may be doing so inadvertently. You may be flushing invertebrate
or fish eggs with your water changes. You may also be releasing spores from
spore-breeding plants (example: duckweed).


I hope that when I flush it doesn't go directly into the natural waters but you
do have a good point. Since i have the resposibility i have to show i have
taken the proper precautions to insure these thing don't happen. the average
hobbiest either dosen't or can't. But then i am a liscensed aquaculture
facility.

The bottom line is that you have no "right" to make decisions regarding the
Florida ecosystem, nor do you have any "right" to own any kind of aquarium
fish or plant.


I have to agree again with this, totally reasonable. But restriction should be
based on reality not emotion.



remove nospam from e-mail to send to me, I grow trees in aquariums like bonsai.
I breed dwarf crayfish, great for planted community tanks. If you can get me a
shovelnose sturgeon fingerling (Scaphirhynchus platorynchus) no wild caught
please, contact me
  #29  
Old January 1st 04, 09:03 PM
Moontanman
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Default Hobby Ethics

Ghosties aren't worth it. They're one of the least interesting things you
could ever get fined for.


Where in North America are ghost shrimp exotic? The waters in my area almost
burst whith native populations of ghost shrimp. the local fish love them!
remove nospam from e-mail to send to me, I grow trees in aquariums like bonsai.
I breed dwarf crayfish, great for planted community tanks. If you can get me a
shovelnose sturgeon fingerling (Scaphirhynchus platorynchus) no wild caught
please, contact me
  #30  
Old January 1st 04, 09:05 PM
Moontanman
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Default Hobby Ethics


Hey Joeseph, what state do you live in? I live in Virginia and have
not found ANY stores in my area, Virginia Beach, that carry Killifish.
And have found ghost shirmp ONCE.


If you live in Virginia you should be able to find as many native ghost shrimp
as you want unless you live in the mountians. maybe even there.
remove nospam from e-mail to send to me, I grow trees in aquariums like bonsai.
I breed dwarf crayfish, great for planted community tanks. If you can get me a
shovelnose sturgeon fingerling (Scaphirhynchus platorynchus) no wild caught
please, contact me
 




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