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  #21  
Old July 14th 05, 11:36 AM
Coasty
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Sarge" > wrote in message
...
> "tom" wrote: "I would like to find r12 substitute for my old a/c system.
> Local stores in the LA area pep boys, auto Zone, etc, say I need a license
> to buy the environmentally safe stuff, yet is available online with no
> such
> requirement.
>
> Questions:
> Are there really any restrictions on the e-safe stuff?
>
> How do I get this into an old system? All the new cans appear to be the
> r134 screw on type, rather than the puncture top cans. I don't want to
> replace my valves because my old type pressure gauges will not work with
> the
> newer valves.
>
> What I would like is a filler hose with the newer type tap end for the
> can,
> and an attachment that can be used to fill my existing system thru the
> original valves on the compressor. This would enable me to use R134 leak
> detector, as well as envirosafe, or some such similar product to recharge
> the system."
>
>
> Tom, you must be referring to LA like in California and not LA the state
> of
> Louisiana. R134 was designed as the replacement freon for R12. Never
> tried
> Freeze12. Kits are sold to retrofit R12 cars with R134. Pressure and
> temperature readings will be different for R12 and R134. There are gauge
> sets out there that made for R134.
>
> A retro kit will have the necessary fittings. See http://www.ackits.com/
>
> R12 is still available for purchase with the right license. Cost is
> around
> 477 dollars for a 30 LB cylinder. It is no longer manufacture in the US.
> Recycle R12 may be sold if you can locate it.
>
> As far as the freon license for automobile work. The certification can be
> taken online or by mail. It not that expensive. See
> http://www.macsw.org/macs.asp?mfurl=certify.html It use to be an open
> book
> test unlike the certification for working on appliances, residential and
> commercial HVAC units or industrial chillers.
>
> Sarge
>
>
>

Sarge,

Everything you said is true the EPA however has approved Freeze12 as a
replacement along with several others see link
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrig...sts/mvacs.html

Yes EPA certification can be gained rather easily from many sources, which
highlights all the rules nothing about repair and maintenance of systems.
In the state where I live I hold a Masters HVAC license and Stern just
really does not have any practical knowledge. Also, where I live it is
illegal to buy R12 and transport into the State if you get caught you can
lose everything. Many States have their own environmental laws that tighten
up the Federal EPA laws that is why R12 is so expensive here if you buy it
legally. As said before, I show mine if he shows his and if I was a betting
man he is not EPA certified or has a Master HVAC license.

Also, I attend refresher EPA training every two years to keep up on the
changing laws. One call to the EPA hot line for doing something wrong could
ruin a person and company. It is a $10k fine for each occurrence and they
list their violators so in many cases the days of the shade tree HVAC do it
yourself are gone, unless you want to risk fines or jail. Recently I was at
a local land fill where people just toss their AC units refrigerators into a
box for scrap, there were over 55 items in the bin, 55x$10k is a lot of
money that could be mine for a free call. I contacted the head of the
Counties waste management and pointed out the error of their ways. Two days
later they asked me to bid on the recovery of the units, and I refused
because of implications. Now the County has one of the HVAC mechanics
recovering everything that comes in as per the EPA.

People treat the law as non-applicable to themselves until they get caught
then it is everyone else's fault and people who say it is ok to do so
perpetuate the situation. I also belong to several National Organizations
which continuously keep up on the changing laws, and HVAC equipment
maintenance and repair. It is easy to read something and interpret some
information that is only 1/3 of the equation practical knowledge is the
other 2/3 of the equation.
---
Coasty
SEMPAR PARATUS
(ALWAYS READY)

Remove The SPOOGE To Reply


Ads
  #22  
Old July 14th 05, 02:07 PM
aarcuda69062
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article >,
Bill Putney > wrote:

> > Many states have their own licensing requirements, some only
> > require the purchaser to have the "609" certification. Check the
> > laws in your state.

>
> Maybe I missed something in what was being said there, but apparently in
> my state, there are absolutely no licensing requirements for 134A.


Entirely possible.
In Wisconsin and I suspect a few other states with draconian laws
one needs a state license in order to purchase R-134a or R-12.
The selling vendor (NAPA CarQuest, etc) has to have a copy of the
license on file in case the state checks.
I can go to Michigan, Illinois, Indiana and buy R134a right off
the shelf at Walmart.
The Wisconsin license amounts to nothing more than another tax on
the business owner.

> Anyone can walk into any auto parts store and buy it just like they
> would an oil filter. I assumed it was that way in most other U.S.
> states.


It is. But since there are exceptions, the OP is best served
making himself familiar with whatever requirements there are in
-his- state.

> Apparently not? (or am I mis-reading something said earlier?)


I remember back when R-12, R-22 and R-134a were advertised in the
circulars in the Sunday paper, there were a few states listed as
"sales are restricted," Wisconsin and (IIRC) Florida were at
least two, and since Kalifornia never saw a repressive law it
didn't like, it is entirely possible that they also require a
license.
  #23  
Old July 14th 05, 02:13 PM
aarcuda69062
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article >,
"maxpower" > wrote:

> Don't waste your time on him, Its an ego thing that he has. Do like most
> people do here and that is to ignore his stupidity


Perhaps you'd like to point out specifically where Daniel is in
error.
  #24  
Old July 14th 05, 08:25 PM
Daniel J. Stern
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005, aarcuda69062 wrote:

> "maxpower" > wrote:
>
> > Don't waste your time on him, Its an ego thing that he has. Do like
> > most people do here and that is to ignore his stupidity


> Perhaps you'd like to point out specifically where Daniel is in error.


*grabs a bowl of popcorn and sits down to watch the Maxpower Parade of
Ignorance*


  #25  
Old July 14th 05, 08:26 PM
maxpower
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"aarcuda69062" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "maxpower" > wrote:
>
> > Don't waste your time on him, Its an ego thing that he has. Do like most
> > people do here and that is to ignore his stupidity

>
> Perhaps you'd like to point out specifically where Daniel is in
> error.


I forgot what his date of birth is but that would be it


  #26  
Old July 14th 05, 09:30 PM
Coasty
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"aarcuda69062" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "maxpower" > wrote:
>
>> Don't waste your time on him, Its an ego thing that he has. Do like most
>> people do here and that is to ignore his stupidity

>
> Perhaps you'd like to point out specifically where Daniel is in
> error.




He was wrong in several areas, EPA however has approved Freeze12 as a
replacement along with several others see link
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrig...sts/mvacs.html

Yes EPA certification can be gained rather easily from many sources, which
highlights all the rules nothing about repair and maintenance of systems. In
the state where I live I hold a Masters HVAC license and Stern just really
does not have any practical knowledge. Also, where I live it is illegal to
buy R12 and transport into the State if you get caught you can lose
everything. Many States have their own environmental laws that tighten up
the Federal EPA laws that is why R12 is so expensive here if you buy it
legally.

As said before, I show mine if he shows his and if I was a betting man he is
not EPA certified or has a Master HVAC license.

Also, I attend refresher EPA training every two years to keep up on the
changing laws. One call to the EPA hot line for doing something wrong could
ruin a person and company. It is a $10k fine for each occurrence and they
list their violators so in many cases the days of the shade tree HVAC do it
yourself are gone, unless you want to risk fines or jail.

Recently I was at a local land fill where people just toss their AC units
refrigerators into a box for scrap, there were over 55 items in the bin, 55x
$10k is a lot of
money that could be mine for a free call. I contacted the head of the
Counties waste management and pointed out the error of their ways. Two days
later they asked me to bid on the recovery of the units, and I refused
because of implications. Now the County has one of the HVAC mechanics
recovering everything that comes in as per the EPA.

People treat the law as non-applicable to themselves until they get caught
then it is everyone else's fault and people who say it is ok to do so
perpetuate the situation. I also belong to several National Organizations
which continuously keep up on the changing laws, and HVAC equipment
maintenance and repair.

It is easy to read something and interpret some information that is only 1/3
of the equation practical knowledge is the other 2/3 of the equation.

--
Coasty
SEMPAR PARATUS
(ALWAYS READY)

Remove The SPOOGE To Reply


  #27  
Old July 14th 05, 10:21 PM
Daniel J. Stern
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


On Thu, 14 Jul 2005, Coasty wrote:

> > Perhaps you'd like to point out specifically where Daniel is in error.


> He was wrong in several areas, EPA however has approved Freeze12 as a
> replacement


I never *ever* disputed this.

> I hold a Masters HVAC license and Stern just really does not have any
> practical knowledge.


You have no idea how much practical knowledge I have.

  #28  
Old July 15th 05, 01:30 AM
maxpower
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Daniel J. Stern" > wrote in message
n.umich.edu...
>
> On Thu, 14 Jul 2005, Coasty wrote:
>
> > > Perhaps you'd like to point out specifically where Daniel is in error.

>
> > He was wrong in several areas, EPA however has approved Freeze12 as a
> > replacement

>
> I never *ever* disputed this.
>
> > I hold a Masters HVAC license and Stern just really does not have any
> > practical knowledge.

>
> You have no idea how much practical knowledge I have.


Not knowledge, its all ego.


  #29  
Old July 15th 05, 05:14 AM
aarcuda69062
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article >,
"maxpower" > wrote:

> "aarcuda69062" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > "maxpower" > wrote:
> >
> > > Don't waste your time on him, Its an ego thing that he has. Do like most
> > > people do here and that is to ignore his stupidity

> >
> > Perhaps you'd like to point out specifically where Daniel is in
> > error.

>
> I forgot what his date of birth is but that would be it


In other words, you got nothing.
  #30  
Old July 15th 05, 05:33 AM
aarcuda69062
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article >,
"Coasty" > wrote:

> "aarcuda69062" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > "maxpower" > wrote:
> >
> >> Don't waste your time on him, Its an ego thing that he has. Do like most
> >> people do here and that is to ignore his stupidity

> >
> > Perhaps you'd like to point out specifically where Daniel is in
> > error.

>
>
>
> He was wrong in several areas, EPA however has approved Freeze12 as a
> replacement along with several others see link
> http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrig...sts/mvacs.html


Daniel never made any sort of claim that Freeze 12 wasn't on the
SNAP list.
If you can bring up a post of his to the contrary, I'd love to
see it.

> Yes EPA certification can be gained rather easily from many sources, which
> highlights all the rules nothing about repair and maintenance of systems.


I'm not sure what this has to do with the price of tea in China.
Given all the classes you claim to have attended, I find it
surprising that it hasn't occurred to you that the EPA is in the
business of enforcing environmental policy, not how to repair an
automobile.

> In the state where I live I hold a Masters HVAC license and Stern just really
> does not have any practical knowledge.


Well, I've known him for at least eight years, and I disagree.

> Also, where I live it is illegal to
> buy R12 and transport into the State if you get caught you can lose
> everything.


Since R-12 isn't illegal and there is none being manufactured in
the United States and thusly, your state, the question is; how do
the wholesalers get R-12 into your state for legitimate re-sale
without "losing everything?"

> Many States have their own environmental laws that tighten up
> the Federal EPA laws that is why R12 is so expensive here if you buy it
> legally.


Yes, I believe I'd already cited examples to that effect in my
reply to Bill Putney.

> As said before, I show mine if he shows his and if I was a betting man he is
> not EPA certified or has a Master HVAC license.


You'd lose that bet.

> Also, I attend refresher EPA training every two years to keep up on the
> changing laws. One call to the EPA hot line for doing something wrong could
> ruin a person and company. It is a $10k fine for each occurrence and they
> list their violators so in many cases the days of the shade tree HVAC do it
> yourself are gone, unless you want to risk fines or jail.


ISTR reading this somewhere else...


> Recently I was at a local land fill where people just toss their AC units
> refrigerators into a box for scrap, there were over 55 items in the bin, 55x
> $10k is a lot of
> money that could be mine for a free call. I contacted the head of the
> Counties waste management and pointed out the error of their ways. Two days
> later they asked me to bid on the recovery of the units, and I refused
> because of implications. Now the County has one of the HVAC mechanics
> recovering everything that comes in as per the EPA.


So?

> People treat the law as non-applicable to themselves until they get caught
> then it is everyone else's fault and people who say it is ok to do so
> perpetuate the situation. I also belong to several National Organizations
> which continuously keep up on the changing laws, and HVAC equipment
> maintenance and repair.


Then you should appreciate Daniel's comments since he has been
citing chapter and verse the fact that there is no such thing as
a "drop in replacement" for R-12.

> It is easy to read something and interpret some information that is only 1/3
> of the equation practical knowledge is the other 2/3 of the equation.


You -do- realize that this is usenet, don't you?
I suppose somewhere in the future there will be three dimensional
computer monitors and forums such as this will allow a
realization of that other "2/3 of the equation."
 




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