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Substrate heater installation?



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 16th 04, 04:18 AM
Adam Gottschalk
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Default Substrate heater installation?


I have a 20w Tunze substrate heater. I planned to put a layer of tiny
gravel around it, then Fluorite on top, then some more gravel. Maybe I
could pack Fluorite around the heater then gravel on top? (A response on
this NG told me it should be 50/50 Fluorite/gravel, which I guess I'll
stick too.)
  #2  
Old April 17th 04, 01:46 PM
Marvin Hlavac
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Default Substrate heater installation?

Hi Adam,

(A response on this NG told me it should be 50/50
Fluorite/gravel, which I guess I'll stick too.)




100% Fluorite is even better, but of course more expensive.



I have a 20w Tunze substrate heater.



I don't know about that particular one but I have heard a lot of people say
their substrate heaters didn't last very long. Mine lasted only a few weeks.
I suspect substrate heaters are of no real benefit to a planted aquarium
where the whole bottom is covered with plant routes anyway.
--
Regards,
Marvin Hlavac
Toronto, Canada




  #3  
Old April 21st 04, 12:00 AM
Dave Millman
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Default Substrate heater installation?

Adam Gottschalk wrote:

I have a 20w Tunze substrate heater. I planned to put a layer of tiny
gravel around it, then Fluorite on top, then some more gravel. Maybe I
could pack Fluorite around the heater then gravel on top? (A response on
this NG told me it should be 50/50 Fluorite/gravel, which I guess I'll
stick too.)


If you could return the heater and buy more Flourite, you'd probably be
happier...

  #4  
Old April 21st 04, 02:33 PM
Harry Muscle
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Default Substrate heater installation?

"Marvin Hlavac groups: rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants" [email protected] wrote in
message
news
Hi Adam,

(A response on this NG told me it should be 50/50
Fluorite/gravel, which I guess I'll stick too.)




100% Fluorite is even better, but of course more expensive.



I have a 20w Tunze substrate heater.



I don't know about that particular one but I have heard a lot of people

say
their substrate heaters didn't last very long. Mine lasted only a few

weeks.
I suspect substrate heaters are of no real benefit to a planted aquarium
where the whole bottom is covered with plant routes anyway.
--
Regards,
Marvin Hlavac
Toronto, Canada


Substrate heaters are supposed to be of long term benefit. They won't make
your plants grow faster, better, or nicer. But they will allow you to grow
them for many many years without getting a stale substrate.

Harry


  #5  
Old April 21st 04, 09:14 PM
Adam Gottschalk
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Default Substrate heater installation?

In article ,
"Harry Muscle" wrote:

Substrate heaters are supposed to be of long term benefit. They won't make
your plants grow faster, better, or nicer. But they will allow you to grow
them for many many years without getting a stale substrate.


Thanks for that. I have read in several books now about the use of
substrate heaters. In addition, I'm the type of person who reasons any
given thing out before acting. It makes very clear sense that, in trying
to mimic a natural environment as much as possible, you would like to
provide some moderate constant heat in the base, the "earth". And that
just on the face of it. In detail, substrate heaters, I'm told, create
little eddies of upcurrent or something, helping to provide circulation
throughout the substrate.
  #6  
Old April 22nd 04, 01:19 AM
Marvin Hlavac
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Default Substrate heater installation?

Substrate heaters are supposed to be of long term benefit. They won't
make
your plants grow faster, better, or nicer. But they will allow you to

grow
them for many many years without getting a stale substrate.


Thanks for that. I have read in several books now about the use of
substrate heaters. In addition, I'm the type of person who reasons any
given thing out before acting. It makes very clear sense that, in trying
to mimic a natural environment as much as possible, you would like to
provide some moderate constant heat in the base, the "earth". And that
just on the face of it. In detail, substrate heaters, I'm told, create
little eddies of upcurrent or something, helping to provide circulation
throughout the substrate.





Don't take my word for it, this is just one person's opinion without
scientific experiments :-) but my guess is that substrate heaters may help
in a non-planted aquarium or even in a newly planted one. However, once
roots spread all over the fish tanks bottom most likely the benefit is nil.

--
Regards,
Marvin Hlavac
Toronto, Canada









  #7  
Old April 24th 04, 05:27 PM
Kenneth Ho
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Default Substrate heater installation?

**** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com ****

My personal experience with substrate heater is very positive. In Hong Kong,
most hobbists prefer ADA's AquaSoil for their planted tanks, the down side
of ADA's Aqua Soil is that they don't last very long, they tend to break up
and the substrate would become obviously degraded in about 1 - 2 years. When
I set up my 30 Gal a few years back, I got a cheap Rena substrate heater
just to try out the benefit of substrate heater, and up to now my 30 gal is
running perfectly fine without any sign of degrading. I am now setting up a
200 gal, although I will give Flourite a go instead of ADA's Aqua Soil, but
I would still go for a substrate heater, only this time is a more expensive
low voltage model.

Cheers
Kenneth

"Marvin Hlavac" bl
e.rogers.com g...
Substrate heaters are supposed to be of long term benefit. They won't

make
your plants grow faster, better, or nicer. But they will allow you to

grow
them for many many years without getting a stale substrate.


Thanks for that. I have read in several books now about the use of
substrate heaters. In addition, I'm the type of person who reasons any
given thing out before acting. It makes very clear sense that, in trying
to mimic a natural environment as much as possible, you would like to
provide some moderate constant heat in the base, the "earth". And that
just on the face of it. In detail, substrate heaters, I'm told, create
little eddies of upcurrent or something, helping to provide circulation
throughout the substrate.





Don't take my word for it, this is just one person's opinion without
scientific experiments :-) but my guess is that substrate heaters may help
in a non-planted aquarium or even in a newly planted one. However, once
roots spread all over the fish tanks bottom most likely the benefit is

nil.

--
Regards,
Marvin Hlavac
Toronto, Canada












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  #8  
Old April 25th 04, 05:47 PM
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Default Substrate heater installation?

Substrate heaters are supposed to be of long term benefit. They won't make
your plants grow faster, better, or nicer. But they will allow you to grow
them for many many years without getting a stale substrate.


Thanks for that. I have read in several books now about the use of
substrate heaters. In addition, I'm the type of person who reasons any
given thing out before acting. It makes very clear sense that, in trying
to mimic a natural environment as much as possible, you would like to
provide some moderate constant heat in the base, the "earth". And that
just on the face of it. In detail, substrate heaters, I'm told, create
little eddies of upcurrent or something, helping to provide circulation
throughout the substrate.


They do NOT mimic nature at all. Why is nature better for growing
plants? Plants just grow there, it's not because that's what is BEST
for the plants.
Agricultural crops are NOT grown naturally.

Those little eddies are channelized and clog after a while. Unless you
maintain the substrate and replant, uproot etc, substrates will
accumulate too much organic matter after a few months/years.

I challenge anyone to show any significant improvement in growth using
the cables. I've used them for a decade and never saw any benefit in
some 7 tanks over the years.

It does not make any difference in the ability to make and maintain
and high level of aquascaping in a planted aquaria from anything I've
seen or heard from anyone.

Will it hurt your tank? No, but neither will sending me 20$.
You can read George and my discussions on the APD.

Reagrds,
Tom Barr
  #9  
Old April 25th 04, 11:37 PM
Adam Gottschalk
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Default Substrate heater installation?

In article ,
) wrote:

They do NOT mimic nature at all. Why is nature better for growing
plants? Plants just grow there, it's not because that's what is BEST
for the plants.


Yes, in fact, it is. It's sort of a law of the universe really. All
members of the biotic community are as they are because they have
adapted, up to this point, to be optimally suited for their environments.

Agricultural crops are NOT grown naturally.


And that's why conventional agrigulture in this country produces not
only terrible food, but severely harms the growers, taints the produce
in clearly demonstrable and harmful ways, destroys the land (that is
_not_ and understatement...US Soil Service estimates at least 70% of US
topsoil has been eroded since white people arrived due to the horrible
cultural practices of the earlier part of the 20th century), and makes
absolutely no room for such grand old ideas as closed-system nutrient
cycling on a farm, revitalizing the soil with carbonaceous matter such
as grain stovers, etc.

A good farm system looks much more like "piece of nature", as far as
doing something "unnatural" like growing human food (as opposed to
gathering and hunting) can look natural. One sees a great variety of
plant types, plants are located such that they are best suited to the
characteristics of that particular ecological niche, heat-loving plants
are growing in the heat of summer, cool-loving plants in spring and fall
(opposite for those in the tropics and subtropics), short-growing plants
are at the south, taller ones at the north (in the northern hemisphere),
etc.

Those little eddies are channelized and clog after a while. Unless you
maintain the substrate and replant, uproot etc, substrates will
accumulate too much organic matter after a few months/years.


As I understand it, having read on this and talked to a couple of
commercial aqua plant growers, with regular maintenance of the top of
the substrate, just as with any tank, this is not a problem. If you're
using a UGF, for example, and you never siphon off the mulm from the top
layer of gravel, channeling and dead spots occur.

Further, any tank will have to been torn down and started over from
scratch every so often exactly because it is not a natural environment,
one is only aiming to mimic one, and the tank has no natural means of
completely replenishing and cleansing itself as it would in nature.

I challenge anyone to show any significant improvement in growth using
the cables. I've used them for a decade and never saw any benefit in
some 7 tanks over the years.

It does not make any difference in the ability to make and maintain
and high level of aquascaping in a planted aquaria from anything I've
seen or heard from anyone.


Rarely does a challenge count much in favor of factual argumentation. In
the short paragraph above, you have hardly proved your point. I point
this out because, obviously, this is a subject of great interest to me.
Those who have beautiful planted aquaria are few and far between. Why
would it be that _most_ of those whose published work I've read or whom
I've spoken to advocate the use of substrate heater? I am of course more
than willing to acccept that they might keep to that tenet simply due to
a lack of open mindedness or otherwise, but such has not been shown to
me, certainly not "proved".

Will it hurt your tank? No, but neither will sending me 20$.
You can read George and my discussions on the APD.


Oxfam gets the $20, without question. I will see if I can find your
discussions. Thanks. I've got the substrate heater and am days away from
setting up my 40H tank with it...or without it if someone can prove to
me it will be nothing but a hassle or an eyesore in a couple of years
and will not have been worth whatever benefit new plants might have
received from it before establishment.
  #10  
Old April 26th 04, 12:13 AM
Marvin Hlavac
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Default Substrate heater installation?

Will it hurt your tank? No, but neither will sending me 20$.




Hi Tom,

:-) Actually substrate heaters may "hurt" some set ups in hot climates due
to adding more heat. Aquarium coolers are not inexpensive.

If Adam does decide to install the substrate heater in his tank I would just
give him one advice: make sure you secure it very well to the bottom. Don't
rely on the suction cups alone.

--
Regards,
Marvin Hlavac
Toronto, Canada


 




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