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'93 Grand Voyager crank, no start



 
 
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  #11  
Old November 12th 04, 05:08 PM
Mike Behnke
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Replaced both. They're not that expensive.



SBlackfoot wrote:

>>Hmm well if it started again, it's not a snapped belt. Don't rule out the
>>timing
>>belt jumping a tooth though, although that is unlikely unless the belt
>>tensioner
>>is bad.
>>
>>I'm thinking it's more like a crank position sensor or cam sensor. These
>>are
>>among the more common causes of intermittent problems like this on a
>>fuel injected car. It could also be the connectors to the sensors,

>
> possibly
>
>>compromised by water.

>
>
>
> I can't see the timing belt having jumped, it ran decently when I had to
> take it into Toronto the other night. It felt like it was bogging down upon
> decelleration but that was likely just me looking for something wrong.
>
> I'm not the least bit familair with the Mitsubishi engine. How would I check
> the crank position sensor or the cam sensor? I wasn't aware that it had
> either. At this point I figure I'll have to wait until it acts up again and
> troubleshoot from there.
>
>

Ads
  #12  
Old November 14th 04, 11:38 AM
Ted Mittelstaedt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"SBlackfoot" > wrote in message
...
>
> I can't see the timing belt having jumped, it ran decently when I had to
> take it into Toronto the other night. It felt like it was bogging down

upon
> decelleration but that was likely just me looking for something wrong.
>
> I'm not the least bit familair with the Mitsubishi engine. How would I

check
> the crank position sensor or the cam sensor?


Use a scope and a timing light. Don't forget to put the car on a sisemic
shake table to simulate the vibration normally felt by the sensors during
operation. And don't forget to use heatlamps to simulate typical underhood
temperatures. Note: don't put the scope on the shake table.

May I gently brain you with a 2x4 here? You just stated you aren't familar
with the engine in question. Don't you think that by now it might possibly
be
a good idea to GET familiar with it? Such as reading the factory service
manual for the vehicle? Or do you LIKE just replacing every part in the
vehicle until you stumble over the problem by accident? If so, why don't
you buy another '93 GV and just start exchanging parts one at a time
until the entire engine and drivetrain has been exchanged. Surely you
would have a good chance of finding the problem part that way!!

You should be taking the advice here as a pointer to look in the section
of the service manual that covers what you were pointed to. It is just a
start. Not an end.

Ted


  #13  
Old November 14th 04, 11:38 AM
Ted Mittelstaedt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"SBlackfoot" > wrote in message
...
>
> I can't see the timing belt having jumped, it ran decently when I had to
> take it into Toronto the other night. It felt like it was bogging down

upon
> decelleration but that was likely just me looking for something wrong.
>
> I'm not the least bit familair with the Mitsubishi engine. How would I

check
> the crank position sensor or the cam sensor?


Use a scope and a timing light. Don't forget to put the car on a sisemic
shake table to simulate the vibration normally felt by the sensors during
operation. And don't forget to use heatlamps to simulate typical underhood
temperatures. Note: don't put the scope on the shake table.

May I gently brain you with a 2x4 here? You just stated you aren't familar
with the engine in question. Don't you think that by now it might possibly
be
a good idea to GET familiar with it? Such as reading the factory service
manual for the vehicle? Or do you LIKE just replacing every part in the
vehicle until you stumble over the problem by accident? If so, why don't
you buy another '93 GV and just start exchanging parts one at a time
until the entire engine and drivetrain has been exchanged. Surely you
would have a good chance of finding the problem part that way!!

You should be taking the advice here as a pointer to look in the section
of the service manual that covers what you were pointed to. It is just a
start. Not an end.

Ted


  #14  
Old November 14th 04, 11:22 PM
SBlackfoot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

> > I'm not the least bit familair with the Mitsubishi engine. How would I
> check
> > the crank position sensor or the cam sensor?

>
> Use a scope and a timing light. Don't forget to put the car on a sisemic
> shake table to simulate the vibration normally felt by the sensors during
> operation. And don't forget to use heatlamps to simulate typical

underhood
> temperatures. Note: don't put the scope on the shake table.
>
> May I gently brain you with a 2x4 here? You just stated you aren't

familar
> with the engine in question. Don't you think that by now it might

possibly
> be
> a good idea to GET familiar with it? Such as reading the factory service
> manual for the vehicle? Or do you LIKE just replacing every part in the
> vehicle until you stumble over the problem by accident? If so, why don't
> you buy another '93 GV and just start exchanging parts one at a time
> until the entire engine and drivetrain has been exchanged. Surely you
> would have a good chance of finding the problem part that way!!
>
> You should be taking the advice here as a pointer to look in the section
> of the service manual that covers what you were pointed to. It is just a
> start. Not an end.



Well you *were* being helpful... Isn't asking questions about an engine a
good way to begin learning about it? Last time I checked FSMs are pricey.
Are you suggesting I shell out for a FSM for a vehicle that I do not own?
Shell out for said service manual because of a single problem? Obviously I'm
not familiar with it else I wouldn't be asking for advise.

As for throwing parts at it we haven't replaced a single component yet so
I'm not sure where that came from. I mentioned car/rotor/leads but they're
common tune-up items on any engine with a distributor and are overdue. Would
you buy another van just for simple disposeable parts? Wow.


  #15  
Old November 14th 04, 11:22 PM
SBlackfoot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

> > I'm not the least bit familair with the Mitsubishi engine. How would I
> check
> > the crank position sensor or the cam sensor?

>
> Use a scope and a timing light. Don't forget to put the car on a sisemic
> shake table to simulate the vibration normally felt by the sensors during
> operation. And don't forget to use heatlamps to simulate typical

underhood
> temperatures. Note: don't put the scope on the shake table.
>
> May I gently brain you with a 2x4 here? You just stated you aren't

familar
> with the engine in question. Don't you think that by now it might

possibly
> be
> a good idea to GET familiar with it? Such as reading the factory service
> manual for the vehicle? Or do you LIKE just replacing every part in the
> vehicle until you stumble over the problem by accident? If so, why don't
> you buy another '93 GV and just start exchanging parts one at a time
> until the entire engine and drivetrain has been exchanged. Surely you
> would have a good chance of finding the problem part that way!!
>
> You should be taking the advice here as a pointer to look in the section
> of the service manual that covers what you were pointed to. It is just a
> start. Not an end.



Well you *were* being helpful... Isn't asking questions about an engine a
good way to begin learning about it? Last time I checked FSMs are pricey.
Are you suggesting I shell out for a FSM for a vehicle that I do not own?
Shell out for said service manual because of a single problem? Obviously I'm
not familiar with it else I wouldn't be asking for advise.

As for throwing parts at it we haven't replaced a single component yet so
I'm not sure where that came from. I mentioned car/rotor/leads but they're
common tune-up items on any engine with a distributor and are overdue. Would
you buy another van just for simple disposeable parts? Wow.


  #16  
Old November 14th 04, 11:23 PM
SBlackfoot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

> Replaced both. They're not that expensive.

Thanks, I'll look into it.


  #17  
Old November 14th 04, 11:23 PM
SBlackfoot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

> Replaced both. They're not that expensive.

Thanks, I'll look into it.


  #18  
Old November 15th 04, 11:57 AM
Ted Mittelstaedt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"SBlackfoot" > wrote in message
.. .
> >
> > You should be taking the advice here as a pointer to look in the section
> > of the service manual that covers what you were pointed to. It is just

a
> > start. Not an end.

>
>
> Well you *were* being helpful...


NOT if you were all set to run out and replace sensors or belts on account
of
advice I posted here. You should use the advice you get here to help you
prioritize what to look at first.

> Isn't asking questions about an engine a
> good way to begin learning about it?


- begin- that is the operative word.

> Last time I checked FSMs are pricey.


$20 is pricey?!?! See:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tego ry=34217

> Are you suggesting I shell out for a FSM for a vehicle that I do not own?


You won't even drop $20 into helping your father, the man who bore and
raised you? What an ungrateful brat! :-)

> Shell out for said service manual because of a single problem? Obviously

I'm
> not familiar with it else I wouldn't be asking for advise.
>


This is NEVER going to break down EVER again once you fix it? Amazing! Can
you come fix my cars!? :-)

Be serious. This is getting to be a more elderly vehicle, that with the
chair mods is
probably going to be run until the wheels fall off. If you want to keep it
running
which would be a kindness for your father and brother, a FSM is a
requirement.
Otherwise find a good mechanic.

> As for throwing parts at it we haven't replaced a single component yet so
> I'm not sure where that came from. I mentioned car/rotor/leads but they're
> common tune-up items on any engine with a distributor and are overdue.

Would
> you buy another van just for simple disposeable parts? Wow.
>


cap/rotor/plug wires are no big deal. What I am cautioning you on is that
your approach is a shotgunners approach, and that is going to cost you, and
there's a good chance it won't solve the problem.

It's been said numerous times on this forum here, your wasting time and
money
without a FSM. There is really no excuse for it.

Everybody on this forum can get a cheap FSM for all the cars they own if
they
just do one simple thing and that is as soon as they buy their car, start
scanning
Ebay for a FSM. It isn't necessary to go to Hemmings Motor News and buy
from
one of the FSM dealers there, who generally charge 3/4 of the cost of a new
FSM, nor is it necessary to pay the factory for one. All that is necessary
is to
start scanning Ebay and eventually one is going to come up for sale, cheap.
Your
father should have done that when he paid extra to mod the van, or you
should
have done so and given him the manual for his birthday or for Christmas,
along with
the usual tie or after shave.

That's what I do with my parents, once the warranty on their vehicles runs
out.
(as I know that at least one or two times I'm going to get called in for
advice,
even if I don't end up actually doing the work to fix the vehicle) And as a
matter
of fact, amazingly enough, my father has actually looked at the pertinent
sections
of the manual once or twice when he had a failure. And when time comes to
trade in or sell the car, the manual goes back on Ebay and what I get from
it
usually pays a good chunk of the cost of the next one.

By the time the vehicle breaks down and you realize you need a FSM, well
if you don't have one by then, you really need to be silent on the cost, and
either pay the factory or pay one of the HMN's dealers and treat it as a
lesson
learned.

Ted


  #19  
Old November 15th 04, 11:57 AM
Ted Mittelstaedt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"SBlackfoot" > wrote in message
.. .
> >
> > You should be taking the advice here as a pointer to look in the section
> > of the service manual that covers what you were pointed to. It is just

a
> > start. Not an end.

>
>
> Well you *were* being helpful...


NOT if you were all set to run out and replace sensors or belts on account
of
advice I posted here. You should use the advice you get here to help you
prioritize what to look at first.

> Isn't asking questions about an engine a
> good way to begin learning about it?


- begin- that is the operative word.

> Last time I checked FSMs are pricey.


$20 is pricey?!?! See:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tego ry=34217

> Are you suggesting I shell out for a FSM for a vehicle that I do not own?


You won't even drop $20 into helping your father, the man who bore and
raised you? What an ungrateful brat! :-)

> Shell out for said service manual because of a single problem? Obviously

I'm
> not familiar with it else I wouldn't be asking for advise.
>


This is NEVER going to break down EVER again once you fix it? Amazing! Can
you come fix my cars!? :-)

Be serious. This is getting to be a more elderly vehicle, that with the
chair mods is
probably going to be run until the wheels fall off. If you want to keep it
running
which would be a kindness for your father and brother, a FSM is a
requirement.
Otherwise find a good mechanic.

> As for throwing parts at it we haven't replaced a single component yet so
> I'm not sure where that came from. I mentioned car/rotor/leads but they're
> common tune-up items on any engine with a distributor and are overdue.

Would
> you buy another van just for simple disposeable parts? Wow.
>


cap/rotor/plug wires are no big deal. What I am cautioning you on is that
your approach is a shotgunners approach, and that is going to cost you, and
there's a good chance it won't solve the problem.

It's been said numerous times on this forum here, your wasting time and
money
without a FSM. There is really no excuse for it.

Everybody on this forum can get a cheap FSM for all the cars they own if
they
just do one simple thing and that is as soon as they buy their car, start
scanning
Ebay for a FSM. It isn't necessary to go to Hemmings Motor News and buy
from
one of the FSM dealers there, who generally charge 3/4 of the cost of a new
FSM, nor is it necessary to pay the factory for one. All that is necessary
is to
start scanning Ebay and eventually one is going to come up for sale, cheap.
Your
father should have done that when he paid extra to mod the van, or you
should
have done so and given him the manual for his birthday or for Christmas,
along with
the usual tie or after shave.

That's what I do with my parents, once the warranty on their vehicles runs
out.
(as I know that at least one or two times I'm going to get called in for
advice,
even if I don't end up actually doing the work to fix the vehicle) And as a
matter
of fact, amazingly enough, my father has actually looked at the pertinent
sections
of the manual once or twice when he had a failure. And when time comes to
trade in or sell the car, the manual goes back on Ebay and what I get from
it
usually pays a good chunk of the cost of the next one.

By the time the vehicle breaks down and you realize you need a FSM, well
if you don't have one by then, you really need to be silent on the cost, and
either pay the factory or pay one of the HMN's dealers and treat it as a
lesson
learned.

Ted


  #20  
Old November 25th 04, 08:44 AM
Treeline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote in message
...
> > Are you suggesting I shell out for a FSM for a vehicle that I

do not own?
>
> You won't even drop $20 into helping your father, the man who

bore and
> raised you? What an ungrateful brat! :-)


I've been scanning Ebay. $20 just buys the owner's manual most
times. I have yet to see a FSM. I have seen a powertrain FSM for
a 3.3l propane drivetrain or something. But I use gasoline. I
have never seen a plain vanilla FSM for the 1994 Voyager on eBay
but I'll keep looking since you said they come up.

Hemmings, 3/4's, might be good.

It's around $65 for a '94 Voyager. Not too bad for brand new,
including shipping. If Hemmings has it for $45, that's fine.

Last time I called the dealer, he would NOT EVEN ORDER the FSM.
Said to use the 800 number as they do! And I had a discount
coupon too, rats.

Couple years ago, someone was selling CD's of the FSM using PDF
files, but that's good and bad. I guess he was stopped because of
copyright laws on eBay. What was good, you could print out the
pages and only get those dirty. What was bad was the lack of
index but there's software now that will index PDF files, even
the captions of the pictures.


 




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