MOMO Racing vs Driving Force Pro, for PC use

I want a wheel that is precise, has no (or minimal) slop or "dead
zone", and is capable of providing good road feel through the FF.

The DFP supports 900 degree mode. This is supposedly a lot of fun, and
combined with DXTweak it provides a lot of flexibility. That's easily
worth an extra $50 to me, but only if the wheel is equal to MOMO in
precision and FF effects. Therein lies the rub...

On Racing Sim Central, there were a bunch of users saying the DFP
provides very subdued FF compared to the MOMO, that the FF is "notchy"
or just doesn't feel quite right, and that it creates too much
resistance to countersteer. On the Logitech forums, the programmers
acknowledged that the PC driver's FF code is not "tuned" for the DFP
(since it's not officially supported on the PC). They said support may
be added in the next driver release, but that's a maybe -- I'd rather
not risk being stuck with wonky FF.

Then again, I've seen *some* users say the DFP's FF is *better* than
the MOMOs. I've also heard some say the wheel is more precise, possibly
because it has an optical sensor. And then there's that sexy 900 degree
mode...

So, I'm torn. Lots of conflicting reports, not sure who to believe.
Anyone own/tried both these wheels and want to give their take on it?
Cheers,
Eric

DFP = Driving Force Pro, MR = MOMO Racing...

Eric Tetz wrote:
> I want a wheel that is precise, has no (or minimal) slop or "dead
> zone", and is capable of providing good road feel through the FF.

DFP: has ball bearings, tight feel, probably throughout a longer time. MR:
tends to get a bit wobbly (not bad but just more plasticky). Deadzone
doesn't exist in either as far as the wheel is concerned; if there's
deadzone, it's the game's or Windows' (and impacts every controller). Feel
through FF - this is a bit of a personal preference, MR tends to be more
muted (due to no ball bearings and therefore higher friction), DFP a bit
more agressive and certainly stronger.

> The DFP supports 900 degree mode. This is supposedly a lot of fun,
> and combined with DXTweak it provides a lot of flexibility. That's
> easily worth an extra $50 to me, but only if the wheel is equal to
> MOMO in precision and FF effects. Therein lies the rub...

Both wheels report 10 bits on the wheel axis through an optical sensor. In
200 degree mode, the DFP has an angular resolution of 200/1024 = 5
counts/degree vs. MR 240/1024 = 4.2 counts per degree. In 900 degree, the
DFP drops down to a bit more than 1 count per degree, so it looses. (but
wait, there's more! - see below). FF effects are similar, but different, and
a matter of preference/getting used to.

In 900 degree, the DFP is quite loud (gear noise) vs. the MR. In 200 degree,
the DFP is still a bit louder, more "agressive" loud than MR, but you get
used to it. (unless your SO or kid wakes up

> On Racing Sim Central, there were a bunch of users saying the DFP
> provides very subdued FF compared to the MOMO, that the FF is
> "notchy" or just doesn't feel quite right, and that it creates too
> much resistance to countersteer.

Well the problem comes up with 900 degrees that you have to turn *a lot* and
because of the nature of the beast, the same amount of resistance will all
of a sudden feel like more because you're turning further. As for "doesn't
feel quite right", that's often the first impression you get if you're used
to wheel A/brand X and go to wheel B/brand Y. Folks said the same between
the WMFF and the red MOMO, too.

> On the Logitech forums, the
> programmers acknowledged that the PC driver's FF code is not "tuned"
> for the DFP (since it's not officially supported on the PC). They
> said support may be added in the next driver release, but that's a
> maybe -- I'd rather not risk being stuck with wonky FF.

Little birdy is telling me that the maybe is rather certainly a "for sure".
Along that, the wheel will run in fully enabled mode, which gives you two
buttons more and 14 bit reporting (a range of 16,384 counts for the wheel -
which would give you 18 counts per degree on 900 degree mode and 82
counts/deg on 200 degree mode! This is absolutely unheard AFAIK and makes it
the most precise wheel ever, at least in consumer space); additionally,
birdy is singing about adjustable range (no more DXTweak messing, birdy
chirped rather happily).

> Then again, I've seen *some* users say the DFP's FF is *better* than
> the MOMOs. I've also heard some say the wheel is more precise,
> possibly because it has an optical sensor.

Again, FF is personal preference. Precision is not a problem, both are
optical. DFP (once enabled) will be more precise than anything else.

> And then there's that sexy 900 degree mode...

If you say so...

> So, I'm torn. Lots of conflicting reports, not sure who to believe.
> Anyone own/tried both these wheels and want to give their take on it?

See above, FWIW.

The weak spot on both wheels are, well, not the wheels but the pedals.
There's a "pedal fix" for MR out there, expect the same for DFP as part of
the official support in the Logitech software. If you're among the unlucky,
expect to have to deal with support to swap pedals.

v4.6 of the software is coming soon with increased functionality, but ive
not had a problem using the current 4.4

It seems to be the rumble strip and grass texture effects etc that are
muted, imo the actual front tyre loading feels just as good as it does on
other wheels.

pez

"tomb" > wrote in message
...
> DFP = Driving Force Pro, MR = MOMO Racing...
>
> Eric Tetz wrote:
> > I want a wheel that is precise, has no (or minimal) slop or "dead
> > zone", and is capable of providing good road feel through the FF.
>
> DFP: has ball bearings, tight feel, probably throughout a longer time. MR:
> tends to get a bit wobbly (not bad but just more plasticky). Deadzone
> doesn't exist in either as far as the wheel is concerned; if there's
> deadzone, it's the game's or Windows' (and impacts every controller). Feel
> through FF - this is a bit of a personal preference, MR tends to be more
> muted (due to no ball bearings and therefore higher friction), DFP a bit
> more agressive and certainly stronger.
>
> > The DFP supports 900 degree mode. This is supposedly a lot of fun,
> > and combined with DXTweak it provides a lot of flexibility. That's
> > easily worth an extra $50 to me, but only if the wheel is equal to
> > MOMO in precision and FF effects. Therein lies the rub...
>
> Both wheels report 10 bits on the wheel axis through an optical sensor. In
> 200 degree mode, the DFP has an angular resolution of 200/1024 = 5
> counts/degree vs. MR 240/1024 = 4.2 counts per degree. In 900 degree, the
> DFP drops down to a bit more than 1 count per degree, so it looses. (but
> wait, there's more! - see below). FF effects are similar, but different,
and
> a matter of preference/getting used to.
>
> In 900 degree, the DFP is quite loud (gear noise) vs. the MR. In 200
degree,
> the DFP is still a bit louder, more "agressive" loud than MR, but you get
> used to it. (unless your SO or kid wakes up
>
> > On Racing Sim Central, there were a bunch of users saying the DFP
> > provides very subdued FF compared to the MOMO, that the FF is
> > "notchy" or just doesn't feel quite right, and that it creates too
> > much resistance to countersteer.
>
> Well the problem comes up with 900 degrees that you have to turn *a lot*
and
> because of the nature of the beast, the same amount of resistance will all
> of a sudden feel like more because you're turning further. As for "doesn't
> feel quite right", that's often the first impression you get if you're
used
> to wheel A/brand X and go to wheel B/brand Y. Folks said the same between
> the WMFF and the red MOMO, too.
>
> > On the Logitech forums, the
> > programmers acknowledged that the PC driver's FF code is not "tuned"
> > for the DFP (since it's not officially supported on the PC). They
> > said support may be added in the next driver release, but that's a
> > maybe -- I'd rather not risk being stuck with wonky FF.
>
> Little birdy is telling me that the maybe is rather certainly a "for
sure".
> Along that, the wheel will run in fully enabled mode, which gives you two
> buttons more and 14 bit reporting (a range of 16,384 counts for the
wheel -
> which would give you 18 counts per degree on 900 degree mode and 82
> counts/deg on 200 degree mode! This is absolutely unheard AFAIK and makes
it
> the most precise wheel ever, at least in consumer space); additionally,
> birdy is singing about adjustable range (no more DXTweak messing, birdy
> chirped rather happily).
>
> > Then again, I've seen *some* users say the DFP's FF is *better* than
> > the MOMOs. I've also heard some say the wheel is more precise,
> > possibly because it has an optical sensor.
>
> Again, FF is personal preference. Precision is not a problem, both are
> optical. DFP (once enabled) will be more precise than anything else.
>
> > And then there's that sexy 900 degree mode...
>
> If you say so...
>
> > So, I'm torn. Lots of conflicting reports, not sure who to believe.
> > Anyone own/tried both these wheels and want to give their take on it?
>
> See above, FWIW.
>
> The weak spot on both wheels are, well, not the wheels but the pedals.
> There's a "pedal fix" for MR out there, expect the same for DFP as part of
> the official support in the Logitech software. If you're among the
unlucky,
> expect to have to deal with support to swap pedals.
>
>

> On Racing Sim Central, there were a bunch of users saying the DFP
> provides very subdued FF compared to the MOMO, that the FF is "notchy"
> or just doesn't feel quite right, and that it creates too much
> resistance to countersteer. On the Logitech forums, the programmers
> acknowledged that the PC driver's FF code is not "tuned" for the DFP
> (since it's not officially supported on the PC). They said support may
> be added in the next driver release, but that's a maybe -- I'd rather
> not risk being stuck with wonky FF.

FF on the DFP is fine in terms of strength. In fact, I'd say it's much
stronger. The MR does seem smoother overall, but the DFP still is close
behind in my opinion. The key is to not have FF at incredibly high gain.
With the strength dialed back closer to MR output, the feel is very smooth.
Overall, the notchiness, IME, is mostly from excessive centering force, and
it's more "gritty" than notchy.

> Then again, I've seen *some* users say the DFP's FF is *better* than
> the MOMOs. I've also heard some say the wheel is more precise, possibly
> because it has an optical sensor. And then there's that sexy 900 degree
> mode...

The full 900 degrees is mostly useless unless you regularly drive sims
simulating road cars (GT4 for PC would be nice ). However, the
flexibility to have any usuable range you need is fantastic.... even without
physical stops.

Just my 2 cents,
Alan

tomb wrote:
> Little birdy is telling me that the maybe is rather certainly a "for
sure".
> Along that, the wheel will run in fully enabled mode, which gives you
two
> buttons more and 14 bit reporting (a range of 16,384 counts for the
wheel -
> which would give you 18 counts per degree on 900 degree mode and 82
> counts/deg on 200 degree mode! This is absolutely unheard AFAIK and
makes it
> the most precise wheel ever, at least in consumer space);
additionally,
> birdy is singing about adjustable range (no more DXTweak messing,
birdy
> chirped rather happily).

Well, that's all I needed to hear. DFP it is.

I have spend *days* Googling "Driving Force Pro" and "Driving Force Pro
MOMO"
and reading through all the hits; your post trumps them all. Thanks.

Real nascar drivers run lower ratios than we run in nr2003, and have wheels
that go around 4 times or so (depending on the setup).

You should be running mid to high 20s to 1 steering at daytona, as they do
in real life, and have a mutliturn wheel and switch off the low speed
steering hack and run 100% linearity if you want the most accurate
representation of real life nascar (or so ive been led to believe).

So its not just for road car sims, its for boat sims too

pez


"Alan Le" > wrote in message
. com...
> > On Racing Sim Central, there were a bunch of users saying the DFP
> > provides very subdued FF compared to the MOMO, that the FF is "notchy"
> > or just doesn't feel quite right, and that it creates too much
> > resistance to countersteer. On the Logitech forums, the programmers
> > acknowledged that the PC driver's FF code is not "tuned" for the DFP
> > (since it's not officially supported on the PC). They said support may
> > be added in the next driver release, but that's a maybe -- I'd rather
> > not risk being stuck with wonky FF.
>
> FF on the DFP is fine in terms of strength. In fact, I'd say it's much
> stronger. The MR does seem smoother overall, but the DFP still is close
> behind in my opinion. The key is to not have FF at incredibly high gain.
> With the strength dialed back closer to MR output, the feel is very
smooth.
> Overall, the notchiness, IME, is mostly from excessive centering force,
and
> it's more "gritty" than notchy.
>
> > Then again, I've seen *some* users say the DFP's FF is *better* than
> > the MOMOs. I've also heard some say the wheel is more precise, possibly
> > because it has an optical sensor. And then there's that sexy 900 degree
> > mode...
>
> The full 900 degrees is mostly useless unless you regularly drive sims
> simulating road cars (GT4 for PC would be nice ). However, the
> flexibility to have any usuable range you need is fantastic.... even
without
> physical stops.
>
> Just my 2 cents,
> Alan
>
>

Alan Le wrote:
> The key is to not have FF at incredibly high gain. With the strength dialed
> back closer to MR output, the feel is very smooth.

How much should I dial it back (so I can set it up properly when it arrives)?
I've also heard the DFP is very loud, does dialing back the FF strength make
it quieter?

Any other setup tips?

Cheers,
Eric

> > The key is to not have FF at incredibly high gain. With the strength
dialed
> > back closer to MR output, the feel is very smooth.
>
> How much should I dial it back (so I can set it up properly when it
arrives)?

Personally, I run overall gain at 100%, spring strength at 65-75%, and
damper strength at 100%. The centering spring is unchecked. That's all for
the Control Panel settings. In game, it's very user dependent. I like to
run NR2003 down around 65%. It just feels more natural to me. In F1C, full
effects and strength at about -85% works for me as a general rule of thumb.

> I've also heard the DFP is very loud, does dialing back the FF strength
make
> it quieter?

The DFP is just noisy in general. It comes from the gears when moving the
wheel back and forth. It's really only an issue in games where you're
constantly applying a fair bit of opposite lock (e.g. RBR). Even so, I
honestly don't "hear" it at all while I'm driving. IOW, yes it's loud...
but not loud enough to break my concentration.

> Any other setup tips?

Just remember to put the wheel at 100% strength too (Select+R3+Left
Paddle... Left LED should blink twice). If you're not used to FF, expect an
acclimation period. The effects can sometimes be subtle (a good thing
IMHO), but after awhile, you'll notice things like a difference in feel as
the front tires wear out.

Alan

Alan Le wrote:
>> How much should I dial it back (so I can set it up properly when it
>> arrives)?
>
> Personally, I run overall gain at 100%, spring strength at 65-75%,
> and damper strength at 100%. The centering spring is unchecked.

Sounds about right. I leave all except overall gain at 100%, and overall
gain to 90%. It's really personal preference to a high degree. It's a pretty
strong wheel, and especially in multiturn can become a bit of a workout. Not
a bad thing....

> That's all for the Control Panel settings. In game, it's very user
> dependent.

Again, agreed. Try Alan's settings, if you think it's too weak, up it a bit.

>> I've also heard the DFP is very loud, does dialing back the FF
>> strength make it quieter?
>
> The DFP is just noisy in general. It comes from the gears when
> mving the wheel back and forth.

Again, agreed.

> It's really only an issue in games where you're constantly applying
> a fair bit of opposite lock (e.g. RBR). Even so, I honestly don't
> "hear" it at all while I'm driving. IOW, yes it's loud... but not loud
> enough to break my concentration.

No, the problem is other people. If you're trying to play at midnight with a
SO or kid sleeping, or in an apartment with really thin walls, then you're
into trouble with the noise. If you don't have a situation like that, the
whirring isn't distracting at all. Just turn up the volume a bit, or put on
those headphones. You won't hear a thing.

>> Any other setup tips?
>
> Just remember to put the wheel at 100% strength too (Select+R3+Left
> Paddle... Left LED should blink twice).

I'm curious to see those 4.6 drivers with the adjustable range. That's going
to be nice, I think..

> If you're not used to FF, expect an acclimation period. The
> effects can sometimes be subtle (a good thing IMHO), but
> after awhile, you'll notice things like a
> difference in feel as the front tires wear out.

Yeah, resist the urge to "turn it up" too much. More/bigger is not always
better, just more impressive. The fine nuances and subtle clues are much
more helpful.

Alan Le wrote:
> Personally, I run overall gain at 100%

I'm a little bit worried about this review:

http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Ha...orcepro/2.html

They managed to damage the wheel on their first run, introducing a
permanent wobble. I have no idea what they specifically mean by
"wobble" and what internal mechanism is responsible, but it's
enough to make me paranoid of breaking the wheel. I wonder if
turning down the FF will make the wheel last longer...

> The effects can sometimes be subtle (a good thing IMHO), but
> after awhile, you'll notice things like a difference in feel as
> the front tires wear out.

Cool. That's what I'm after. I've been playing LFS with the mouse
(I downloaded a bunch of demos in preparation for the wheel, LFS is
one of the few that supports mouse input) and I'm getting pretty
good at it. It will be interesting to see how my first run with the
wheel compares to the times I'm getting with the mouse. I can
hardly wait for Santa to get here.

Happy Holidays,
Eric